What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[QvQ]

if you were saved by faith then you were saved by something you did, as opposed to what Christ did? So it is important to understand that salvation is, and always has been, and always will be by grace alone.

Saved is Faith. Faith is activated by Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is the gift whereby we are in communion with God

JMHO

I am going to list few attributes of God
1) God is a coherent, rational being.
2) God exists in all dimensions of time, including temporal
3) The Will of God is sovereign and active in all dimensions of time and space.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Sounds like by "faith" you mean not just belief (fides) but also trusting on (fiduces), which is the meaning of NT faith.

Sounds more like someone trying to avoid addressing points made.



So tell me, since you believe that you can interpret faith and belief as the same thing, and do not see any reason to place the use of this word in context: do demons have faith?


God bless.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ephesians 3 does not present the Gospel as meaning "Gentiles are included." That is the conclusion of those who skim-study the Mystery of the Gospel.

If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel. But what does Scripture say? That all have fallen short, right? There is none righteous, right?

Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel.

Third, we look at all of Paul's teaching concerning the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ and understand that it simply was not made known to men in past Ages or generations. That is all-inclusive.

Gentiles were not "included," nor was this a mystery:

Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Gentile inclusion is no mystery. It was prophesied in detail. It is part of God's promise to Abraham, "In thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

Lastly, we see that Gentiles do not become a part of the Covenant of Law (which is specific to Israel, and the means of relationship to God in that Age), but they, like the Jews—become members of the Church.

And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated:


Galatians 3:22-28
King James Version

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


The riches of the glory of the Mystery is Christ in us. That is for both Jew and Gentile.

God bless.

I don't even need to read your whole post to see you want a one-size-fits-all meaning of "mystery". What I meant was, that in this context, the use of mystery was a reference to the fact that the Elect are both Jew and Gentile.

Paul tells us outright what the mystery is that he is referring to, in Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

What's more, you somehow conflate 'mystery' with 'gospel'. There is 'mystery of the gospel', of course, but they are not one and the same thing.

Further, you make the illogical claim, "If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel". That does not logically follow, but only that the Jews would have their particular viewpoint concerning the Gospel.

Then you say, "Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel." I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Of course there was no Israel before Jacob; so what? Who is it that is making obsolete the 'gentiles', and what do you mean by that anyway? I'm not going to play "Guess What The Hint Means". I'm not married anymore Try saying plainly what you are getting at.

Then you say, "And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated". Did I say anything against that? Or are you, like my departed wife, reading things into what I said that I had not meant to imply, to which imagined implication I had not even made you find it necessary to correct?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Saved is Faith. Faith is activated by Grace of the Holy Spirit. It is the gift whereby we are in communion with God

It is a result of God's work that is effected by you, meaning you are the one having faith.

God doesn't have it for you.

And your faith can be either weak or strong. Who do you think has control of how strong your faith is? Do you think God is just going to "gift" you with great faith and you just let go and let God?


Romans 14
King James Version

14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


How does one learn that it is okay to eat something they once thought they could not? God is going to just zap him with this information?

Faith is a result of God making the truth real to our hearts. We believe, we obey, and the result is faith. And our faith is something that can grow, or not. What we put into our walk with the Lord will determine the strength of our faith. There are those who are willing to die for Christ due to strong faith, and those who are not because of weak faith.

JMHO

Yeah, I know.

I am going to list few attributes of God
1) God is a coherent, rational being.
2) God exists in all dimensions of time, including temporal
3) The Will of God is sovereign and active in all dimensions of time and space.

And this is relevant to you not addressing any of the points being made—how?

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I don't even need to read your whole post to see you want a one-size-fits-all meaning of "mystery". What I meant was, that in this context, the use of mystery was a reference to the fact that the Elect are both Jew and Gentile.

Paul tells us outright what the mystery is that he is referring to, in Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

What's more, you somehow conflate 'mystery' with 'gospel'. There is 'mystery of the gospel', of course, but they are not one and the same thing.

Further, you make the illogical claim, "If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel". That does not logically follow, but only that the Jews would have their particular viewpoint concerning the Gospel.

Then you say, "Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel." I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Of course there was no Israel before Jacob; so what? Who is it that is making obsolete the 'gentiles', and what do you mean by that anyway? I'm not going to play "Guess What The Hint Means". I'm not married anymore Try saying plainly what you are getting at.

Then you say, "And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated". Did I say anything against that? Or are you, like my departed wife, reading things into what I said that I had not meant to imply, to which imagined implication I had not even made you find it necessary to correct?

If you aren't going to bother to read the posts then what is the point?

A one-size-fits-all? lol

Okay, I'll return the favor and not bother addressing what you have said. In a brief scan of your statements I think you sum it up best in saying, "I don't even know what you are trying to say here."

The reason for that is that you aren't interested in what I have to say, you simply want to argue. When you are interested in doctrinal discussion let me know. I don't give hints, everything was stated plainly, and I have to assume you are used to playing games instead of seeking to have reasonable conversations.

Reread it and you may be able to understand what is being said about The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ." Or not.

Have a blessed day!

 

[QvQ]

So tell me, since you believe that you can interpret faith and belief as the same thing, and do not see any reason to place the use of this word in context: do demons have faith

Adam was in communion with God. After the fall, man was out of communion.
Through Christ, by the Grace of God, the Holy Spirit gifted man with Faith, which is communion with God.
Faith is communion.

Demons are not men. Demons have a different relationship with God. It is akin to asking if pigs have Faith.

 

[Clare73]

There have been discussion on this thread about the secret councils of God. Is that what you mean?

However, mystery in the NT refers to what has not been revealed before, but is now revealed.
It does not refer to the hidden councils of God or some hidden meaning incomprehensible to us.

When hearing the Word. Then a person is born again, being baptized by the Holy Spirit, for by grace are you saved through Faith. So salvation is an act by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion, Faith

However you said:
These people believe but are not saved..
So we have 4 groups who hear the Word and Believe yet have not Faith
1) Lukewarm
2) Nominal
3) Understanding of natural mind
4) Believe but do not have Faith
Salvation is "for by grace you have been saved through faith." Salvation is Grace (Holy Spirit) activating belief into Faith. I would say that "ignition" is regeneration or at least the start.

 

[Clare73]

I don't even need to read your whole post to see you want a one-size-fits-all meaning of "mystery". What I meant was, that in this context, the use of mystery was a reference to the fact that the Elect are both Jew and Gentile.

Keeping in mind that mystery in the NT refers to what has not been revealed before, but is now revealed; e.g. the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), plan by which both a remnant of Jew (Romans 11:5) and Gentile (Romans 11:25) will be included in his kingdom.
It does not refer to some hidden meaning incomprehensible to us.

Paul tells us outright what the mystery is that he is referring to, in Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

What's more, you somehow conflate 'mystery' with 'gospel'. There is 'mystery of the gospel', of course, but they are not one and the same thing.

Further, you make the illogical claim, "If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel". That does not logically follow, but only that the Jews would have their particular viewpoint concerning the Gospel.

Then you say, "Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel." I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Of course there was no Israel before Jacob; so what? Who is it that is making obsolete the 'gentiles', and what do you mean by that anyway? I'm not going to play "Guess What The Hint Means". I'm not married anymore Try saying plainly what you are getting at.

Then you say, "And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated". Did I say anything against that? Or are you, like my departed wife, reading things into what I said that I had not meant to imply, to which imagined implication I had not even made you find it necessary to correct?

 

[Clare73]

Adam was in communion with God. After the fall, man was out of communion.
Through Christ, by the Grace of God, the Holy Spirit gifted man with Faith, which is communion with God.
Faith is communion.

Saving faith is belief in and trust on the atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-11), on the pattern of Adam's imputed sin/guilt to us (Romans 5:14, Romans 5:18-19).

Demons do not have saving faith.

Demons are not men. Demons have a different relationship with God. It is akin to asking if pigs have Faith.

 

[Clare73]

Isn't the mystery God that He gave up His Son for all men?

To repeat myself:
"Mystery" in the NT does not mean something incomprehensible or hard to understand, but rather it means what was not revealed before, but is now revealed; e.g. the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), plan by which both a remnant of Jews (Romans 11:5) and Gentiles (Romans 11:25) will be included in his kingdom.

 

[QvQ]

However, mystery in the NT refers to what has not been revealed before, but is now revealed.
It does not refer to the hidden councils of God or some hidden meaning incomprehensible to us.

That is why I asked. There are secret councils of God where God is God, beyond our understanding.

The word "mystery" is suspect to me as what is necessary to man is plainly revealed in God's Word. There isn't any hidden or secret meaning, knowledge or wisdom that is imparted to or by initiates. (gnosis)

 

[Clare73]

That is why I asked. There are secret councils of God where God is God, beyond our understanding.

The word "mystery" is suspect to me as what is necessary to man is plainly revealed in God's Word. There isn't any hidden or secret meaning, knowledge or wisdom that is imparted to or by initiates. (gnosis)

Agreed. . .in the NT, musterion does not mean mysterious, as with the English word, but simply that which cannot be known except by divine revelation--not known before, but now revealed, "which has been hid from all ages and generations: but now has it been manifested to the saints" (Colossians 1:26).

 

[zoidar]

In part, yes, but as Paul states in Colossians 1:25-27, another aspect is the eternal indwelling of God. "The riches of the glory of the mystery is Christ in us.

This is something "Eye had not seen, ear had not heard, nor had it entered into the hearts of men."

I just gave several passages you can look at to get an idea of the Mystery of Christ if you want to take a look.

One of the things that is important about this doctrine is that we see a distinct change in salvation between the Old Testament and the New. It is the same salvation, to be sure, but we (those in relationship with God through the New Covenant) have an added step in the progression of Eternal Redemption, and that is our being baptized into Christ.

The Old Testament was not.

Some will ask, "Does this mean they were not saved?" The answer is no, they were saved from the eternal perspective of God, but they were not born again during their lifetimes as we are. This can be likened to the "step" we have not yet been granted and that is glorification. That will not take place in the Body of Christ until the Rapture.

But we are no less saved because we have not been glorified, just as the Old Testament Saint was no less saved because they were not born again during their lifetime. They died not having received eternal remission of sins, but received it when Christ died on the Cross (Hebrews 10:1, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 9:12-15, Romans 3:24-25).

The Old Testament Saints received progressive revelation concerning salvation through a Messiah, so we understand that Isaiah had more knowledge about Him than Adam, Noah, and Abraham. The women at the well, a woman of Samaria, was awaiting Christ. But it would not be until after He died that a proper context for why Christ is the Savior was revealed unto men (by the Spirit sent down from Heaven (John 16:7-9; 1 Peter 1:10-12). Today, many Jews have rejected Jesus Christ and are still awaiting Prophecy to be fulfilled. We would not ascribe belief and faith unto them, but many do that very thing with the Old Testament Saint. The saying is popular, "They were saved by looking forward to the Cross," but the problem with that is that many of the Old Testament Saints had no idea about the Cross. They had no idea that the Messiah would die. Even the disciples expected a physical fulfillment, which is not unjustified, because there will be a physical fulfillment.

but they didn't understand the death of Christ in their stead. This is why Peter was willing to commit murder in the Garden of Gethsemane—to keep Jesus from the Cross.

That is why he rejected the Gospel and rebuked Christ, saying basically, "No, Lord, the only thing that keep me from eternal separation—I don't want that to happen!" (Matthew 16:20-23)

The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is one of the first things I recommend to people who seek to understand their salvation. When you understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ you understand the magnitude of the Cross, and what Christ has done for us.

God bless.

I have read most of your posts. What you present is interesting, still I don't see it as part of the gospel to us. I see the gospel as something very simple. God sent Jesus to die for our sins and be resurrected for our salvation. Repent and believe and you will be saved. What if the Jews before Christ''s death on the cross, weren't born again, interesting yes, but what difference does it make for my reception of Jesus as my savior?

 

[Mark Quayle]

If you aren't going to bother to read the posts then what is the point?

A one-size-fits-all? lol

Okay, I'll return the favor and not bother addressing what you have said. In a brief scan of your statements I think you sum it up best in saying, "I don't even know what you are trying to say here."

The reason for that is that you aren't interested in what I have to say, you simply want to argue. When you are interested in doctrinal discussion let me know. I don't give hints, everything was stated plainly, and I have to assume you are used to playing games instead of seeking to have reasonable conversations.

Reread it and you may be able to understand what is being said about The Mystery of the Gospel of Christ." Or not.

Have a blessed day!

I didn't say I didn't bother to read your post. I said I didn't need to.

The subsequent things I said should have shown you I read your whole post.

Have a blessed day.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Keeping in mind that mystery in the NT refers to what has not been revealed before, but is now revealed; e.g. the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), plan by which both a remnant of Jew (Romans 11:5) and Gentile (Romans 11:25) will be included in his kingdom.
It does not refer to some hidden meaning incomprehensible to us.

No doubt. I didn't dispute what 'mystery' is, but to show in that one context, Paul is saying outright, per 3:6, "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

@P1LGR1M wanted to take issue with that.

 

[Muckah]

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[Muckah]

"

 

[zoidar]

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

V. 30 - "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

This passage seems to refer to the calling of the apostles.

I don't think you are right, but if you don't like the Calvinistic rendering, go to other sources.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Adam was in communion with God. After the fall, man was out of communion.

I take quite a different view of Adam's relationship than most, and this because I understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ, and understand that Adam did not "die spiritually" in the Fall.

Adam was in communion with God, but it was a physical communion. God walked physically in the Garden with Adam (and I view this to be the Son of God).

Keep in mind that Adam's means for "everlasting life" is the Tree of Life. Not Eternal Union with God. This is the very reason he (and Eve) were thrown out of the Garden, and—the reason why death was introduced to mankind:


Genesis 3:22-23
King James Version

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


Many believe Adam "died spiritually" because he sinned and that this is what has to be corrected. Hence the Calvinistic teaching that men have always been born again (in order to have faith). It is just one more extreme view taken to support another view held, that is, Total Depravity. Now I hold to Total Depravity, but I don't have to incorporate the erroneous notion that Adam was "alive spiritually" then died, and now we need to get that back.

The Garden was never God's Plan for Mankind, the Eternal State, Eternal Union, and the glorified Saint was.

Regeneration is something new, and it took the death of the Son of God to make that possible.

I have shown this before, but have yet to see someone address it:


John 3:9-16
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If Jesus Christ states that being born again was reliant on His death on the Cross, I would think we would pay attention to that.

If Jesus Christ states God sent Him so men could have Eternal Life—why is this not understood to so many?

If the Gospel of Christ is still a Mystery to someone who claims to be a Christian, it should give considerable concern to that Christian.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Through Christ, by the Grace of God, the Holy Spirit gifted man with Faith, which is communion with God.

Sorry, but this is like saying "Through modern aviation—we have comfortable seats."

What God gave us, by His Grace—was His Son.

And Eternal Union with Him.

And Eternal Life.

We are not saved to faith, but through faith, and saved unto Eternal Redemption.

Faith is a result, not Eternal Redemption itself.

Faith is communion.

I won't argue with that.

But as I said before, faith can be weak, or faith can be strong.

Demons are not men. Demons have a different relationship with God. It is akin to asking if pigs have Faith.

And you have missed the entire point: I asked because we know that devils believe, however, that belief that Jesus is the Christ has nothing to do with faith.

In other words, the point was that there are contextual distinctions to be made in regards to belief and faith. The argument that "belief is the same thing as faith" is not supported by Scripture. Hence my view that the order of salvaion is thus: God ministers to the hearts of men, men believe, and faith is the observable aspect of their belief.


James 2:18
King James Version

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Hebrews 11:1
King James Version

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


We know Abraham understood the form of the Gospel he heard because he was willing to sacrifice Isaac. He believed God would bless all families of the earth through his (Abraham's) seed (offspring) so knew God would have to resurrect Isaac in order to fulfill that promise:


17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.


He did that by faith. It was something he did, not God.

But this is a rabbit trail. The topic is "What is wrong with Calvinism," and one of the points I see as grievous error on the part of the Calvinist is the teaching that men were born again throughout Biblical History.

How the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ shows this to be error is that not only is the New Birth not something that took place, the very fact that the Gospel of Christ was withheld from man's understanding makes it certain no man was born again.

Because you have to believe in Jesus Christ in order to become regenerate.

In John 3 Christ teaches He had to die that men might be born again. Now, let's look at a statement from Peter:


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Not only did Christ have to come (This is why we have "Messianic Prophecy," because it speaks in a time before Christ came), but He had to die on the Cross (John 3:9-16), and—He had to rise from the grave.

Eternal Redemption is not just His death, and not just His Resurrection, but the twain.

And that is the Gospel: that Jesus Christ died in the stead of the sinner to atone for his sin, and arose that He might give unto men Eternal Life.


God bless.