What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

No one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3-8).

God draws by regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and man believes. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

lol 1 cor 2 doesn't say that .

 

[QvQ]

1- the preaching of the gospel- Romans 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Romans 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7

All that list is ONE ACT of the Holy Spirit and not subject to man's time. It could all be simultaneous.
The Sacrament, public Baptism
If the Sacramental Baptism is the time of receiving the Holy Spirit, , then a person who is ready for baptism on Monday and it is isn't scheduled until the following Saturday or Sunday, then that person and the Holy Spirit have to wait around until that date before a man can be regenerated and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Jesus and the Disciples were definitely in communion with the Spirit before the Baptism by John.

 

[Clare73]

lol 1 cor 2 doesn't say that .

If you understand the NT, it does.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

If you understand the NT, it does.

nothing in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that says regeneration precedes faith. you made that up. I understand the verse you are adding your ideas into it which is eisegesis.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

nothing in 1 Corinthians 2:14 that says regeneration precedes faith.

I'm thinking the rebirth required in John 3:3-8 to even see the kingdom of God does not exclude the rebirth being necessary in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Only those who are born again have the Holy Spirit necessary in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'm thinking the rebirth required in John 3:3-8 does not exclude 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Only those who are born again have the Holy Spirit.

yes after they believe.

 

[Clare73]

yes after they believe.

I'm thinking the rebirth required in John 3:3-8 to see (know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God does not exclude the rebirth being necessary in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Only those who are born again have the Holy Spirit necessary to understand and accept the things of God in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Scripture couldn't be more clear on the matter. . .to those who have eyes that can see.

 

[QvQ]

So the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with Faith?
A person decides being convinced of his own reason and free will to believe and then what?
The person reads the Word, decides he is a sinner and repents?
The the person confesses or is baptized in public.?
Then the Holy Spirit descends to regenerate him?

This may be what some denominations believe are the steps to salvation.
Would someone please list the denominations that believe the Holy Spirit is not present and man is not regenerate until after repentance and formal baptism?

 

[QvQ]

Science is not much to hold on to when you are laying on the deathbed. Maybe you should tell your friend that?

There is research into genetics, the causes of aging, which appear to be the degeneration of some genetic codes. That could lead, through genetic manipulation, splicing, insertion to the regeneration of the physical body.
There is a belief that man can be physically regenerated, forever young, through science.
My friend would merely reply, that unfortunately, his life and death were prior to science curing death.
Physical regeneration and immortality, better living through chemistry, what?

 

[John Mullally]

If I erred in that I apologize the passage you quoted is a common proof text for the UR group.
As for "long canned anti-UR scree" 3 decades ago when I joined this forum I soon realized that the same out-of-context verses and arguments are endlessly repeated so I decided that I didn't have to reinvent the wheel on every post so I started saving my responses. So same arguments, same post get same response.

I use 1 Timothy 2:4 to counter arguments that God predestines many for the Great White Throne.

 

[John Mullally]

So the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with Faith?
A person decides being convinced of his own reason and free will to believe and then what?
The person reads the Word, decides he is a sinner and repents?
The the person confesses or is baptized in public.?
Then the Holy Spirit descends to regenerate him?

This may be what some denominations believe are the steps to salvation.
Would someone please list the denominations that believe the Holy Spirit is not present and man is not regenerate until after repentance and formal baptism?

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement per John 16:8 - this generally occurs during the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16-17). Some listen and receive faith (Romans 10:17). Some resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), push His conviction out of their minds, and remain unconverted.

 

[QvQ]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement per John 16:8 - this generally occurs during the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16-17).

What Denominations believe that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, except during preaching the Gospel until after a man is baptized? Everything up until the act of confession or baptism is a willful act by man separate from any interference from God or the Holy Spirit?
Which denominations believe that?

 

[zoidar]

I'm thinking the rebirth required in John 3:3-8 to even see the kingdom of God does not exclude the rebirth being necessary in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Only those who are born again have the Holy Spirit necessary to understand and accept the things of God in 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Scripture couldn't be more clear on the matter. . .to those who have eyes that can see.

If it was that clear we would all agree. I don't think it's the best way to read Paul into John to drive home the point. Better would be if you found something to use for your case from John's writings IMO. Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14 and John in John 3:3-8 are talking about totally different things. But I know you disagree.

 

[Der Alte]

I use 1 Timothy 2:4 to counter arguments that God predestines many for the Great White Throne.

I agree with that. The Gospel is not Calvinistic. I'll catch a lot of flak for this but Calvinism contradicts the words of Jesus.

 

[QvQ]

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement per John 16:8 - this generally occurs during the preaching of the Gospel (Romans 1:16-17). Some listen and receive faith (Romans 10:17). Some resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51), push His conviction out of their minds, and remain unconverted.

So you do not believe in Grace?

You believe it is a man's work of hearing, believing, repenting, confessing then being baptized after which time a man receives the gift of regeneration through the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

"Ephesians 2:1-9 makes it very clear that while we are still dead in our trespasses and sin God makes us alive. The Bible is also clear that the act of being born again or regenerated is a sovereign act of God. It is something He does which enables us to believe the gospel message, not something that comes as a result of our belief."

 

[John Mullally]

So you do not believe in Grace?

You believe it is a man's work of hearing, believing, repenting, confessing then being baptized after which time a man receives the gift of regeneration through the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

"Ephesians 2:1-9 makes it very clear that while we are still dead in our trespasses and sin God makes us alive. The Bible is also clear that the act of being born again or regenerated is a sovereign act of God. It is something He does which enables us to believe the gospel message, not something that comes as a result of our belief."

Paul writes the Ephesian letter to the "Faithful in Christ Jesus" per Ephesians 1:1.

There are multiple ways to interpret Ephesians 2:8-9. If you start with the assumption that Calvinism is true, you have God favoring His pre-destined elect. From that vantage: Ephesians 2:8-9 is about God graciously giving faith to the elect, and to heck with everybody else.

From the non-Calvinist Evangelical perspective: God does not play favorites (Romans 2:11), but offers grace to all mankind. That grace includes: (a) Christ's ransom was paid for all (1 Timothy 2:6), (b) the conviction of the Holy Spirit is to the world (John 16:8), (c) receiving faith by listening to the word of God (Romans 10:17). God's grace is not always received as demonstrated in John 3:18 and as Paul says some people frustrate the Grace of God per Galatians 2:21.

Where Calvinists and non-Calvinists Evangelicals agree: Faith leads to salvation.

P.S. Salvation can also be seen as a Grace given to those with Faith.

 

[QvQ]

Faith leads to salvation.

My belief is that Faith is Salvation as it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.
The question was, is a person regenerated before or during hearing the Word or does a person have to do that entire list, then receive regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
I stated it was One Act of God, the Word, Faith, Repentance and Confession.
Clare has stated the Holy Spirit has to regenerate a person before a person can assent to the Word, to receive Faith,
The question is:
Do you believe in Grace as stated in Ephesians 2:8 ?

That answer to your statement is Saul was converted in One Act on the road to Damascus. He heard the Word. He immediately repented and confessed his faith.
Saul did not sit down on the side of the road after hearing the Word and decide whether or not he was going to "maybe" believe. From that moment, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit. From the moment he heard the Word.
And you are absolutely right, God does not play favorites so as He has done unto Paul is a way a man was actually, demonstrably converted. One Act.

 

[John Mullally]

What Denominations believe that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation, except during preaching the Gospel until after a man is baptized? Everything up until the act of confession or baptism is a willful act by man separate from any interference from God or the Holy Spirit?

Jesus paid the ransom for our justification. The Holy Spirit performs the necessary work of convicting the sinner during the peaching of the Gospel per John 16:8.

Saying "I was saved completely by the working of the Holy Spirit" sounds profound, but it is not biblical. In Acts 2:38-39 Peter tells the crowd they have to repent to receive salvation. God will not do for man (in this case repent), what He has called man to do. Also the human element in preaching the Gospel is also important per Romans 10:14-15.

Which denominations believe that?

What denominations do I think agree with what I am saying: most Baptist, Charismatics, Pentecostal, most Lutheran, Calvary Chapel, most non-Denominational, Anabaptists, WOF, NAR.

 

[John Mullally]

My belief is that Faith is Salvation as it is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I said faith results in salvation - so we are close there. And I said faith is a given by God to those who listen to the Word of God (Acts 10:17). We differ because you believe God gives faith to the pre-destined elect.

The question was, is a person regenerated before or during hearing the Word or does a person have to do that entire list, then receive regeneration of the Holy Ghost.
I stated it was One Act of God, the Word, Faith, Repentance and Confession.
Clare has stated the Holy Spirit has to regenerate a person before a person can assent to the Word, to receive Faith,
The question is:
Do you believe in Grace as stated in Ephesians 2:8 ?

I explained how I saw Ephesians 2:8-9 with its reference to grace, faith, and salvation being fulfilled and contrasted that with how Calvinist see it fulfilled.

That answer to your statement is Saul was converted in One Act on the road to Damascus. He heard the Word. He immediately repented and confessed his faith.
Saul did not sit down on the side of the road after hearing the Word and decide whether or not he was going to "maybe" believe. From that moment, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit. From the moment he heard the Word.

The stories of Paul and Jonah provide some very strong cases of persuasion and those will tend to a quick and strong reaction, maybe yours was like that. For some the message of the Gospel is remembered but no action is taken until a later life-changing event causes them to get serious, forsake their pleasure seeking, and run to God in repentance.

And you are absolutely right, God does not play favorites so as He has done unto Paul is a way a man was actually, demonstrably converted. One Act.

Calvinists believe that God choses to regenerate the pre-selected elect, who like everyone never have sought God, and yet pass all others (leaving them to be damned) - which is definitely favoritism.

 

[QvQ]

"I was saved completely by the working of the Holy Spirit" sounds profound, but it is not biblical.

Ok, so Paul wasn't saved by the working of the Holy Spirit on the road to Damascus or if he was saved, it was a special case of election.

Here is my order:
1) A person who hears the Word and believes (one act) is saved. That Faith received through Grace.
2) At that moment, the person receives the Holy Spirit (is regenerated). The Holy Spirit regenerates the conscience so a person can understand sin (convict)
3)The person's sins are remitted through Christ and repentance is granted by God (The person is already saved through faith in Christ's atonement)
4) The person can be baptized through the Grace of God.

YOUR list almost sounds Catholic except the actual Sacrament of Baptism would come first.
If I am correct Catholic Order of Salvation is:
1) Baptism
2) Being instructed in the Faith (convicted by the Holy Spirit)
3) repentance
4) confession
5) Absolution (you would say salvation)

I am not certain if this is Catholic, just my meager understanding.