What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Jesus is YHWH]

And the other half of the story.

Yes, all men reject it (1 Corinthians 2:14). . .save for those whom God enables to accept it (John 6:65).

John 6 verse has nothing to do with salvation

 

[Clare73]

John 6 verse has nothing to do with salvation

Only if you are saved without coming to Jesus. . .and that's not in my Bible.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

In John 6 Jesus said twice it’s the one who first believes has eternal life . He doesn’t give eternal life prior to believing that’s that Calvinists false premise with regeneration.

 

[All Becomes New]

In John 6 Jesus said twice it’s the one who first believes has eternal life . He doesn’t give eternal life prior to believing that’s that Calvinists false premise with regeneration.

I think you missed my post.

Why is God's primary attribute love? I don't think this has anything to do with Calvinism.

 

[QvQ]

No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception

I was raised amongst atheist. Most of my friends are atheist.
My mother, a good person who was raised in the faith, could not "see" God. She said why not believe in Zeus?
She had all the repentance, baptism instruction, example and "hearing the Word" but it was just that "words" unintelligible to her, a foreign language.
It requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
She could never understand why I was so deluded by a fairytale she had put away with Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
That is what Calvin was puzzling as we are. Why are some elected and some not?
God's Will, and I notice that Calvin states that we pray and preach the gospel to groups. The salvation of the individual may be a private matter between each man and God, for who can judge the heart or the time?
God answers prayer. In the case of regeneration He states that His will is sovereign, who He chooses or who chooses Him maybe none of anyone's business
As I said, the Word must have a corresponding reality so what is the reality here?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Amazing how this is EXACTLY what I have been saying for a few years and is rejected by so many here which was my point in this very OP
.

A Calvinist Scholar, Grammarian, Theologian - Abraham Kuyper a man after my own heart- Praise Jesus !

"Before God created heaven and earth with all their inhabitants, the eternal Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit shone with unseen splendor in the divine Being. Love exists, not for the sake of the world, but for God's sake; and when the world came into existence, Love remained unchanged; and if every creature were to disappear, it would remain just as rich and glorious as ever. Love exists and works in the Eternal Being apart from the creature; and its radiation upon the, creature is but a feeble reflection of its being.

Love is not God, but God is Love; and He is sufficient to Himself to love absolutely and forever. He has no need of the creature, and the exercise of His Love did not begin with the creature whom He could love, but it flows and springs eternally in the Love-life of the Triune God. God is Love; its perfection, divine beauty, real dimensions, and holiness are not found in men, not even in the best of God's children, but scintillate only around the Throne of God.

The unity of Love with the Confession of the Trinity is the starting-point from which we proceed to base Love independently in God, absolutely independent of the creature or anything creaturely. This is not to make the divine Trinity a philosophic deduction from essential love. That is unlawful; if God had not revealed this mystery in His Word we should be totally ignorant of it. But since the Scripture puts the Triune Being before us as the Object of our adoration, and upon almost every page most highly exalts the mutual Love of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and delineates it as an Eternal Love, we know and plainly see that this holy Love may never be represented but as springing from the mutual love of the divine Persons.

Hence through the mystery of the Trinity, the Love which is in God and is God obtains its independent existence, apart from the creature, independent of the emotions of mind and heart; and it rises as a sun, with its own fire and rays, outside of man, in God, in whom it rests and from whom it radiates.

In this way we eradicate every comparison of the Love of God with our love. In this way the false mingling ceases. In principle we resist the reversing of positions whereby arrogant man had succeeded in copying from himself a so-called God of Love, and into silencing all adoration. In this way the soul returns to the blessed confession that God is Love, and the way of divine mercy and pity is opened whereby the brightness of that Sun can radiate in a human way, i.e., in a finite and imperfect manner to and in the human heart, to the praise of God. "

Kuyper on 1 Corinthians 13

"Love’s superiority of place and quality is principally conspicuous from the fact that, while faith and hope will finally cease, Love abides forever.

Surely, faith and hope do not cease in the sense that other spiritual gifts cease. The word “temporal” has a twofold meaning. Temporal is the worm that dies and from which nothing remains. Temporal is the caterpillar that must die as a worm, but that rises beautiful again as a butterfly. The same is true of faith and hope, as compared with the spiritual gifts of speaking with tongues and healing the sick. The latter will fail altogether. They will completely disappear. They will vanish away, as St. Paul says in 1 Cor. xiii. 8. But the failing of faith and hope may not be taken in that sense. They fail only to rise again in the fuller, richer, and more beautiful form of sight and enjoyment.

But Love does not know this metamorphosis. It not only abides forever, but it ever abides unchanged. In the fact that all other gifts perish or change, and that Love alone is eternal, we see the never-ending work of the Holy Spirit scintillating in the hearts of believers; in our meditation on Love we apprehend His proper work in all its depths, even to the root. " Kuyper- the work of the Holy Spirit, XXIII, the greatest of these is Love.

Is your mind spending its time on the temporal or the eternal ?

hope this helps !!!

Love in the Triune Being of God.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

There are so many misnomers running around about God and His love and what that looks like in regard to mankind. If anyone wants to know what God is like and what He thinks we need to look no further than Jesus and His teachings since He is the Eternal God who became man.

1- Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for them

2- Jesus lived among sinners, ate with them and loved them, had compassion on them.

3- Jesus loves sinners, not hates them

4- Jesus on the cross said please forgive them Father for they know not what they do- His enemies who hated Him at the time.

5- Jesus came to seek and save the lost, the sinner

6- Jesus showed us what love looks like, acts like, talks like, lives like and how it treats people.

7- Jesus told us all the law and commandments are wrapped up/fulfilled in loving God with all our being( heart, mind,soul ) and your neighbor as you do yourself.

8- Jesus said if you really love Him you will do what He has commanded

9- Love is described perfectly in 1 Corinthians 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails.

10- Love in action in Galatians 5- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

I could list another 10 points to this list but this should be plenty to get the point across. The wrath, anger, hatred about God towards us misunderstood by many. Gods wrath always falls upon the reprobate, apostate, those hardened against God, those who are wicked and rebellious that reject Gods provision for their sins by Jesus sacrifice.

conclusion: because God is Love and Jesus is God we can see to perfection that 1 Corinthians 13 and the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 describes Jesus to a tee . He is love incarnate since God is love we see Him in action described in the gospels and where the Bible defines love.


hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Synonyms for Love

adore
care for
benevolent
fond affection
treasure
devoted to
attached
hold dear
think the world of
adulate
like
kind
considerate
relish
deeply appreciate
partial to
passion
honor
forgiving

Antonyms for love

hate
dislike
abhor
dislike
scorn
detest
abominate
wrath
retribution
anger
detest
rude
arrogant
envy
unkind
boastful
dishonor
grudgeful

Does anyone get the picture yet ?

1 Corinthians 13
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.8 Love never fails.

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

God can only be who He is and Scripture says more than once God is love. Love is mentioned over 700 times.

Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4:8;16 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love ( 1 John 4:8;16 ) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

I understand why people think that and that the god of calvinism is a "monster " with double predestination and the creation of most humankind with no choice due to election/predestination for hell. Its a misunderstanding of Gods nature/character especially when it comes to love.

No parent would say they love all their 10 children yet only rescue 2 of them from the fire in the house when he could of saved them all and let the other 8 burn and die. That is unloving , not loving. But this is what calvinism teaches through their doctrines of grace called tulip.

conclusion : Do you know and understand - God is Love , 1 John 4:8 ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

I was raised amongst atheist. Most of my friends are atheist.
My mother, a good person who was raised in the faith, could not "see" God. She said why not believe in Zeus?
She had all the repentance, baptism instruction, example and "hearing the Word" but it was just that "words" unintelligible to her, a foreign language.
It requires the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
She could never understand why I was so deluded by a fairytale she had put away with Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.
That is what Calvin was puzzling as we are. Why are some elected and some not?
God's Will, and I notice that Calvin states that we pray and preach the gospel to groups. The salvation of the individual may be a private matter between each man and God, for who can judge the heart or the time?
God answers prayer. In the case of regeneration He states that His will is sovereign, who He chooses or who chooses Him maybe none of anyone's business
As I said, the Word must have a corresponding reality so what is the reality here?

It's impossible to know why some receive Christ and others not. Concerning your mom, if she said that we could just as well believe in Zeus, she can hardly have taken the question seriously "if it is a reasonable thing to believe in Jesus". I believe if we really want truth, we are lead to Jesus.

You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.
— Jeremiah 29:13

 

[QvQ]

No parent would say they love all their 10 children yet only rescue 2 of them from the fire in the house when he could of saved them all and let the other 8 burn and die

Yes, God does love, however in the mouth and hands of man, love can be an extremely corrupt, abusive and manipulative instrument,
Any talk of love makes me extremely wary.

Also, you might research Divine Simplicity. It is a core theological concept from Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin. It is worth study.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yes, God does love, however in the mouth and hands of man love can be an extremely corrupt, abusive and manipulative instrument,
Any talk of love makes me extremely wary.

Also, you might research Divine Simplicity. It is a core theological concept from Aquinas, Augustine, Luther, Calvin. It is worth study.

I have studied it brother which is why God is love is so important. As Father, Son and Holy Spirit there is Love within His essential nature. A unitarian god cannot be love for he has no one to know, experience and share that love with.

 

[QvQ]

I believe if we really want truth, we are lead to Jesus.

According to the atheist I know, If we really want truth we are lead to "Deus Machina."
The totality of creation (god) is a spontaneous generation of matter and energy which self organized according to self generated natural laws. Deus Machina is self correcting so creation is gradually evolving into perfection, which is why Darwin's evolution is lower to higher order. Men who study and obey the laws of Deus Machina are able to space travel, cure diseases, and gradually there will be heaven on earth, everything being perfectly ordered and all problems solved through Deus Machina.
Deus Machina is not self aware. Deus Machina is not responsive to creation except by means of the natural laws which are generated by creation to create and maintain creation

Under the natural laws of Deus Machina all men die until Stanford University, who is researching RNA , finds a way to repair the human genome and thus, man can be, in the flesh, immortal.

 

[Clare73]

In John 6 Jesus said twice it’s the one who first believes has eternal life . He doesn’t give eternal life prior to believing that’s that Calvinists false premise with regeneration.

Right, no one believes apart from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Right, no one believes apart from the Holy Spirit.

And faith/belief precedes the new life from the Holy Spirit.

 

[zoidar]

According to the atheist I know, If we really want truth we are lead to "Deus Machina."
The totality of creation (god) is a spontaneous generation of matter and energy which self organized according to self generated natural laws. Deus Machina is self correcting so creation is gradually evolving into perfection, which is why Darwin's evolution is lower to higher order. Men who study and obey the laws of Deus Machina are able to space travel, cure diseases, and gradually there will be heaven on earth, everything being perfectly ordered and all problems solved through Deus Machina.
Deus Machina is not self aware. Deus Machina is not responsive to creation except by means of the natural laws which are generated by creation to create and maintain creation

That's the first time I have heard about "Deus Machina". Sounds like a religion.

 

[QvQ]

That's the first time I have heard about "Deus Machina". Sounds like a religion.

As my atheist friends state, "We believe in science. Who needs God?"

 

[Clare73]

And faith/belief precedes the new life from the Holy Spirit.

Not according to authoritative NT apostolic teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14, where man has no ability to do such apart from the Holy Spirit.

Those who have the Holy Spirit are born again (John 3:3-8).

 

[zoidar]

As my atheist friends state, "We believe in science. Who needs God?"

Science is not much to hold on to when you are laying on the deathbed. Maybe you should tell your friend that?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not according to authoritative NT apostolic teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:14, where man has no ability to do such apart from the Holy Spirit.

God draws, man believes, and regeneration follows.

Anyone granted eyes to see knows the order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......


Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Romans 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Romans 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Romans 8:30
9- Sanctification- Romans 8
10- Glorification Romans 8:30


conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

God draws, man believes, and regeneration follows.

No one can even see the kingdom of God unless he is born again (John 3:3-8).

God draws by regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and man believes. (1 Corinthians 2:14)