What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

I never meant the words don't mean what they say, but to understand what they are refering to we need "tools" that explain what they mean. One of the "tools" is context.
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us⁠—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”⁠— Galatians 3:13
Literal? Gosh, I must be cursed since I hang
on a tree this morning...
Or am I using the word "literal" wrong?

Well, first of all, "hang" has more than one connotation. . .depends on which one you are using.

And secondly, a cross is made from the wood of a tree, and can rightly be referred to as a tree.

"Literal" is not as one-dimensional as you make it.

 

[Clare73]

tulip declares man cannot choose since he it totally depraved

TULIP is not a construction of Calvin, and is prone to misrepresentation of Calvin, as you are doing.

As long as he can choose what he prefers, and does so, he is a free agent and responsible for his choices.

"Possibilities" don't matter. . .choices matter, for the choice will be the same, no matter the possibilities.

That is the issue in moral responsibility.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

TULIP is not a construction of Calvin, and is given to misrepresentation of Calvin, as you are doing.

As long as he can choose what he prefers, and does so, he is a free agent and responsible for his choices.
"Possibilities" don't matter. . .choices matter.
The choice will be the same, no matter the possibilities.

thats contrary to calvinism

are you sure you are a calvinist ?

you sound arminian above.

 

[Clare73]

In what way is the choice there for them? You need to explain that.

That is plain English. . .what do you not understand about it?

God and his will are always there and everywhere as a choice.

Some prefer it and choose it, some don't prefer it and don't choose it.

Both are responsible for their choice.

It's not complicated. . .

 

[Clare73]

thats contrary to calvinism

And there we have it. . .you misunderstand Calvin.

are you sure you are a calvinist ?

you sound arminian above.

And that sounds like agreement with Calvin's writings.
If you agree with what you are referring to in "sounding Arminian", then you agree with Calvin.

You're a "Calvinist" and don't know it because you misunderstand Calvin, having caricatured what he states. Wherever you learned "Calvinism," you learned it wrong.

And have I said I am a "Calvinist"?

I have said I am a Paulist.

 

[RickReads]

Or your chosen misunderstanding. . .

The word you used was "God," not "doctrine."

God is the only one I review my doctrine with. Your accusation is probably a rule violation so I will ask you to let this one drop since you can't take a hint.

 

[zoidar]

Well, first of all, "hang" has more than one connotation. . .depends on which one you are using.

Yeah, then we need to understand which one the Bible is using.

 

[zoidar]

That is plain English. . .what do you not understand about it?

God and his will are always there and everywhere as a choice.

Some prefer it and choose it, some don't prefer it and don't choose it.

Both are responsible for their choice.

It's not complicated. . .

Can they will to prefer it? If they can't will to prefer it, how can it be a choice?

 

[Clare73]

Yeah, then we need to understand which one the Bible is using.

Agreed. . .previously addressed.

 

[Clare73]

Can they will to prefer it? If they can't will to prefer it, how can it be a choice?

Man cannot make all "choices," he cannot choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed, and yet he is still responsible for not doing so.
Your issue is with God's economy.

Plain English assumes there is a choice. But from your theology there is no choice.

That makes no sense. . .plain English "assumes" nothing, it states it or it does not.

 

[GenemZ]

GeneZ ?

One and the same... yes.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

One and the same... yes.

I thought so thanks. civic now chalcedon- I'm banned over there everytime I'm reinstated for challenging calvinism. I'm back tomorrow so we will see what happens again. For 20 years I was not banned as a calvinist.

 

[zoidar]

That makes no sense. . .plain English "assumes" nothing, it states it or it does not.

True that made no sense. Sorry!

 

[Clare73]

The "will to believe" is pretty much the same as saying "the will to have saving faith", which the Bible is clear is not accomplished by the human will. They can will it all they want, but that will is not efficacious. They can even choose it, or so they think they are doing, but they don't have salvific faith, according to scripture, apart from the Spirit of God causing it.

They can think they do. But belief (i.e. the common notion of 'faith') and salvific faith, are two different things. Common faith is of human derivation, but salvific faith is generated by the Spirit of God, and not of man.

A comment to the one who may have concern whether his is common faith, or salvific faith from God.

If he is concerned, he should turn to God, humbly pray for salvific faith, and humbly walk in obedience, not focusing on whether he is elect or not, but focusing on his submission to God, until he knows in his heart that his is saving faith, for this "not knowing for sure" is, among many others,
one of the ways God ordains for some to come to true saving faith.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

A comment to the one who may have concern whether his is common faith, or salvific faith from God.

If he is concerned, he should turn to God, humbly pray for salvific faith, and humbly walk in obedience, not focusing on whether he is elect or not, but focusing on his submission to God, until he knows in his heart that his is saving faith, for this "not knowing for sure" is, among many others,
one of the ways God ordains for some to come to true saving faith.

Lots of conjecture do you have scripture to support the above assumptions?

 

[Der Alte]

I thought so thanks. civic now chalcedon- I'm banned over there everytime I'm reinstated for challenging calvinism. I'm back tomorrow so we will see what happens again. For 20 years I was not banned as a calvinist.

Hi! I am Oldshepherd over there. I was OS here initially but when I became a mod I started using Der Alter here to post and OS to Mod. Some years ago OS had to take a sudden train unexpected train trip. Der Alter was the wrong spelling so I changed it to Der Alte German for "the elder."

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Hi! I am Oldshepherd over there. I was OS here initially but when I became a mod I started using Der Alter here to post and OS to Mod. Some years ago OS had to take a sudden train unexpected train trip. Der Alter was the wrong spelling so I changed it to Der Alte German for "the elder."

That is awesome brother I knew I liked you over here lol . You and I have great history . I’m going to spend more time on the Trinity forum . Never was banned on that forum only the Calvinist/ Arminian forum .

You made my day

 

[Der Alte]

That is awesome brother I knew I liked you over here lol . You and I have great history . I’m going to spend more time on the Trinity forum . Never was banned on that forum only the Calvinist/ Arminian forum .

You made my day

Great, Started a conversation. Check your in box up there on the right.

 

[mccafferty1]

tulip declares man cannot choose since he it totally depraved

For me the most crucial issue I have with ' What's wrong with Calvinism' is the extent of the atonement. Hopefully we all agree that salvation is provided for by virtue of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross.

As seen in John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

So the question, then, is: For whom did Christ die—for the elect only, or for all? The question is not quite that simple, but that is the issue.

Then the “T” word

The phrase total depravity has long been employed by Reformed theologians and others to describe the fallen state of man. Although the language is adequate when properly defined, the phrases pervasive depravity and radical depravity may be more appropriate. To say that every man is totally depraved does not mean that he is as bad as he could be or that his every deed is entirely or perfectly evil. Rather it means that depravity, or moral corruption, has affected his entire being—body, intellect, and will. In the following, we will consider what total depravity does mean and does not mean.

Finally, total depravity does not mean that men do not possess the necessary faculties to obey God. Man is not a victim who desires to obey but is unable to because of factors beyond his control. God has endowed man with an intellect, a will, and a freedom to choose. Man is therefore responsible before God as a moral agent. Total depravity does mean that man cannot submit himself to God because he will not, and he will not because of his own hostility toward God. From The Gospel’s Power and Message-Paul Washer

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

For me the most crucial issue I have with ' What's wrong with Calvinism' is the extent of the atonement. Hopefully we all agree that salvation is provided for by virtue of Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross.

As seen in John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

So the question, then, is: For whom did Christ die—for the elect only, or for all? The question is not quite that simple, but that is the issue.

Then the “T” word

The phrase total depravity has long been employed by Reformed theologians and others to describe the fallen state of man. Although the language is adequate when properly defined, the phrases pervasive depravity and radical depravity may be more appropriate. To say that every man is totally depraved does not mean that he is as bad as he could be or that his every deed is entirely or perfectly evil. Rather it means that depravity, or moral corruption, has affected his entire being—body, intellect, and will. In the following, we will consider what total depravity does mean and does not mean.

Finally, total depravity does not mean that men do not possess the necessary faculties to obey God. Man is not a victim who desires to obey but is unable to because of factors beyond his control. God has endowed man with an intellect, a will, and a freedom to choose. Man is therefore responsible before God as a moral agent. Total depravity does mean that man cannot submit himself to God because he will not, and he will not because of his own hostility toward God. From The Gospel’s Power and Message-Paul Washer

Another interesting thing to ponder as I question everything these days from traditions and assumptions handed down in Christendom. Where does scripture say something changed in man’s nature after the fall and in the image of God . James 3:9 and other passages assume man is still in that same image of God . Food for thought .