What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[zoidar]

Not exactly. He was saying that we are creatures, changing. But God is not changing. (Your soul is only and always what God says it is, but that's not the point of this discussion or of his teaching). He also says that that which changes, necessarily is caused by what does not change.

I know what he was saying. But we as "creatures" are not only flesh and bones. We as beings have been created with an eternal soul, and he didn't touch that at all. Maybe he had a good answer to that, but it was not in the video. But overall, his reasoning wasn't dumb.

Your soul is only and always what God says it is

It sounds like you are saying we can't know what soul is, and I somewhat would agree to that. Soul might have been infused with the ability to make uncaused decisions. Still our soul is what it is, not what God says it is anymore than a bird is a bird.

Sure the decisions we make are influenced by many things, and our bodies are changing, but that is not my point. At the core of choice, at soul level (the unchanging part) resides the free will. That is what I believe.

The ability to make uncaused decisions is not God, though only he has it.

How do you know only God has that ability?

 

[Mark Quayle]

We know the image of God includes righteousness, holiness and knowledge of him (Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10).
It would also include spirit and rationality.
It seems to me the angels are in possession of such.
They are called sons of God in Job 1:6, Job 38:7, and serve him as sons.

I have heard that some people used to rationalize that in fact that angels are superior to us in every way, even when we are in Heaven. So much so that the JW think Jesus is Michael the Archangel. But I don't see that at all.

I think it's pretty obvious the angels are different from us in several ways —for one, the bad ones don't repent and the good ones don't sin. I expect that's because God has set it up to remain that way, now that they have chosen which way to go —not just because they simply lack Adam's inherited sin nature.

(An uncle of mine, who agreed with me that the angels are not made in the image of God in the same way we are, thought that "the image of God" is intelligence, self-awareness and free will, not by rating by degrees but by a 'yes they have it or no they don't'. I said that if self-awareness and choice are the criteria, that even some animals have a modicum of self-awareness, and pretty much all animals have choice, some with a good bit of intelligence mixed in. I told him that as far as the superiority of intelligence and knowledge, the angels would laugh at us claiming that. (As for his brand of free will, he knew I didn't think anyone, man or angel or any being, had that, except God himself.))

There is something special about us God has intended for his particular use of us in Heaven. I'm not sure how to describe it. I'm sure some readers would scream, "FREE WILL" but I don't think that will even apply in Heaven —at least, certainly not as independent from God, but rather as totally IN HIM.

There is also the matter of Love. We seem to hold a special place of delight and satisfaction in God's heart, that I don't find much reference to concerning the angels.

Hebrews 12:22 presents them as in the heavenly gospel church, in the same family with the same head as it presents the firstborn and the deceased saints--both OT and NT, with God the Judge of all and Jesus the Mediator (Hebrews 12:23-24).

I only see it mentioning that they are there, and rejoicing —which seems to be their way. My brother says they put him in mind of how adoring dogs are to us humans, servants of God totally taken up with love for God.

Also, I don't think "the spirits of the righteous made perfect" is a reference to the angels; but I know, you didn't say that they were. Just saying, in case you assumed they were. I don't see anywhere in Scripture to show angels growing in knowledge or righteousness or any other perfection, nor in fulfillment of any plan concerning them.

At this point in God's economy, the angels are superior to us (Psalms 8:3-8).

Agreed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The scripture says man plants the seed and God gives the increase, so I guess it is both.

I fail to see how your statement there is a restatement of the principle I asked about.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I'll have a look, and see if I want to engage them.

Below I will remove any doubts or confusion you might have in thinking tulip is true and it’s not. Calvinism (tulip) is not true. It all stands or falls upon each letter the tulip represents. I know as I was a Calvinist for over 4 decades defending these doctrines of grace (tulip). And one of the most famous Calvinists of all Spurgeon went on record saying that tulip is the gospel. That is blatantly false and as Paul says in Galatians 1 that it is another gospel and adding to the gospel itself these man-made doctrines of grace.

So let me spell this out one more time with Scripture, the Bible. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.

Anyone granted eyes to see knows the order below and scripture is consistent in both testaments. The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......


Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30


conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
If every inclination of the heart of the sinner is only evil, he will reject God. Why is that so hard to accept?

The error Calvinists are making here is that they read this poetic expression too literally. Making people to be all-evil monsters in every moment, deserving never ending torture for something they cannot change.

It is you who take Calvinists too literally here. "Total Depravity" is not a teaching that man is as bad as he can be, but that everything man does is done not for God, but is intended against God, whether the person knows it to be so or imagines otherwise. Do you also think that the concept of Spiritually Dead is taken too literally?

But we don't get that concept from Jeremiah 17 alone. Try Romans 8, for example, or Ephesians 2.

Mark Quayle said: ↑
you want to accuse God of wrongdoing, for making men for the purpose of demonstrating his justice?

No, just saying you and other common Calvinists are giving some wrong views and answers.

Romans 9 shows exactly what we mean. So far I've seen nobody wiggle out of it, and wiggle they do!

 

[Mark Quayle]

Below I will remove any doubts or confusion you might have in thinking tulip is true and it’s not. Calvinism (tulip) is not true. It all stands or falls upon each letter the tulip represents. I know as I was a Calvinist for over 4 decades defending these doctrines of grace (tulip). And one of the most famous Calvinists of all Spurgeon went on record saying that tulip is the gospel. That is blatantly false and as Paul says in Galatians 1 that it is another gospel and adding to the gospel itself these man-made doctrines of grace.

You add confusion to the 'doctrines of Grace', and certainly do not cause me any doubt! You are evidence that a person can attend to a Calvinistic society and still not get it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

How about the Gospel? Lots of sinful men seem to submit to that, I know I did.

And that fits my doctrine precisely: the dead cannot submit to the Gospel. Therefore, the Spirit of God makes them alive, those he has chosen from the foundation of the world, and created for that purpose, so that they can submit to the Gospel.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You add confusion to the 'doctrines of Grace', and certainly do not cause me any doubt! You are evidence that a person can attend to a Calvinistic society and still not get it.

I get it perfectly which is why I reject divine determinism, tulip and the calvinist view of Sovereignty. And I will bet I've taught the doctrines of grace longer than you have.

How long have you been a calvinist ?

How long have you taught tulip ?

 

[trophy33]

It is you who take Calvinists too literally here. "Total Depravity" is not a teaching that man is as bad as he can be, but that everything man does is done not for God, but is intended against God, whether the person knows it to be so or imagines otherwise

I did not claim anything about "total depravity".

I was reacting to the poetic verse you used outside of its context in too literal way.

 

[trophy33]

Romans 9 shows exactly what we mean. So far I've seen nobody wiggle out of it, and wiggle they do!

The problem is not with Romans 9, the problem is with what place you give to such places in the context of 1000 pages of the Bible.

Its out of balance.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I know what he was saying. But we as "creatures" are not only flesh and bones. We as beings have been created with an eternal soul, and he didn't touch that at all. Maybe he had a good answer to that, but it was not in the video. But overall, his reasoning wasn't dumb.

He could have gone on to discussions of the eternal soul, but if he had, he might have mentioned that the only thing eternal about it is what God says, not what we see.

It sounds like you are saying we can't know what soul is, and I somewhat would agree to that. Soul might have been infused with the ability to make uncaused decisions. Still our soul is what it is, not what God says it is anymore than a bird is a bird.

For the effect to make uncaused decisions is self-contradictory. Also, it is self-contradictory to say that it is possible to create or even give uncaused things. The gift or the creating is in itself causing.

You seem to imply that we know what a bird is. We only know our experience of it, and that, not very thoroughly impressed upon our senses, but only a fragmented memory. But our soul is indeed whatever God says it is, as he knows all things, specially considering he made all things; and a bird is whatever God says it is. The characteristics and ontology of any being depends on God, and not on its own ontological being. If God was to withdraw his hand from its existence, it would cease to be anything at all.

Sure the decisions we make are influenced by many things, and our bodies are changing, but that is not my point. At the core of choice, at soul level (the unchanging part) resides the free will. That is what I believe.

Can you show a difference between your notion of "free will" and "actual, responsible choice"?

How do you know only God has that ability?

Because all creatures are effects.

 

[misput]

I fail to see how your statement there is a restatement of the principle I asked about.

Of course not, with your philosophy of dead men walking.

 

[Clare73]

Morality is about the law. Neither the Godless nor the believer are saved by being moral but the law is instrumental in dragging us to God/ Christ because it makes us aware we are without hope in it. If we look at Rom.:2:16- on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Seems to indicate these people will be judged by the gospel. Why bother with that statement if there is no possible connection to the Holy Spirit/God for them?

Do you believe the Spirit of God/Holy Spirit has not and does not work toward salvation with all mankind? Being Spiritually dead
does not mean we cannot think, reason or make a positive decision for God.

And does that not put you in disagreement with 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7-8 and John 3:3-8?
Being spiritually dead means no Holy Spirit.
It means you can't even know or get acquainted with the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

We learn about/see the kingdom as we grow, if we grow. You seem to obsess on certain scripture to the point of leaving no room for the Spirit but as Christ said It goes where it wants and we do not know where. Your theology tends to present God in a very bad light.

How can I say this politely; i.e, it's not my job to defend God and make him look good.
"I'd sooner defend a lion."
My job is to present his truth revealed in his word. . .his image is his job.

 

[misput]

And that fits my doctrine precisely: the dead cannot submit to the Gospel. Therefore, the Spirit of God makes them alive, those he has chosen from the foundation of the world, and created for that purpose, so that they can submit to the Gospel.

Cart before the horse thinking : )

 

[Clare73]

Cart before the horse thinking : )

Sez who?

Certainly not 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8 nor John 3:3-8.

 

[zoidar]

You add confusion to the 'doctrines of Grace', and certainly do not cause me any doubt! You are evidence that a person can attend to a Calvinistic society and still not get it.

Maybe he did get it, just found it to be untrue?

 

[Clare73]

That's the way it works in philosophy, where "free will" comes from.

misput said: ↑
Do you think God is bound by philosophy?

So how did philosophy get into this?. . .well, since you are such a nice guy, let me elaborate.

Man's "free will" is not a Biblical notion. "Free will" is not found in the Bible.
The Bible presents man's voluntary choice of what he prefers, likes.

"Free will" is a philosophical notion, asserted by Pelagius--according to its meaning in philosophy.
In philosophy, "free will" means one has the power to execute the choice, or it is not a choice, such as choosing to be sinless in thought, word and deed.
Because man cannot execute that choice, in philosophy he is considered unable to make that choice.

And because Pelagius took his notion of free will from philosophy, we are stuck with philosophy as the way to understand his use of "free will". . .which is not the Biblical meaning; i.e., man's ability to choose what he prefers, likes.

In Pelagius' use of the term "free will," man cannot choose to be sinless,
therefore, even in Pelagius' use of "free will," man's free will is limited.
In philosophy, limited free will makes one a "free agent," able to freely make voluntary choices, but not all voluntary choices; e.g., the choice to be sinless.

Therefore, in philosophy, which Pelagius asserted, man is actually a "free agent,"
he does not have "free will," the ability to make all moral choices,
but he has the ability to make moral choices of what he prefers, likes.
And. . .that's philosophy, the ground for Pelagius' assertion.

Scripture, however, does not present "free will" of man, as Pelagius used it from philosophy.
Rather, Scripture presents man's ability to freely and voluntarily choose what he prefers, likes.
And. . .in Pelagius' philosophical terms, that would be called the "free agency" of man; i.e.,
the ability to make (execute) some moral choices, but not all moral choices, such as the choice to be sinless.

So. . .God is not bound by philosophy (absurd),
but our understanding of Pelagius' use of "free will" is bound by philosophy,
because that is how he uses it, and in philosophy it means the ability to make all moral choices. . .
which Scripture denies (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7-8),
presenting instead man's ability to make voluntary choices of what he prefers, likes.

Conclusion:
Man does not have "free will" as Pelagius conceived it according to philosophy.
Man has "free agency," or limited free will, according to philosophy, and
according to what Scripture presents, man has the ability to voluntarily choose what he prefers, likes.

.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Determinism is not in the Bible , total depravity is not in the Bible , irresistible grace is not in the Bible , limited atonement is not in the Bible , unconditional election is not in the Bible , perseverance of the saints is not in the Bible , tulip is not in the Bible - it’s all human wisdom and mans philosophy.

@Clare73

hope this helps !!!

 

[Clare73]

I have heard that some people used to rationalize that in fact that angels are superior to us in every way, even when we are in Heaven. So much so that the JW think Jesus is Michael the Archangel. But I don't see that at all.

I think it's pretty obvious the angels are different from us in several ways —for one, the bad ones don't repent and the good ones don't sin. I expect that's because God has set it up to remain that way, now that they have chosen which way to go —not just because they simply lack Adam's inherited sin nature.

Yes, they are fixed in the state of their judgment at the outcome of their trial, some fixed in righteousness, and others fixed in unrighteousness, as we all will be fixed in the state of judgment from judgment day.

(An uncle of mine, who agreed with me that the angels are not made in the image of God in the same way we are, thought that "the image of God" is intelligence, self-awareness and free will, not by rating by degrees but by a 'yes they have it or no they don't'. I said that if self-awareness and choice are the criteria, that even some animals have a modicum of self-awareness, and pretty much all animals have choice, some with a good bit of intelligence mixed in. I told him that as far as the superiority of intelligence and knowledge, the angels would laugh at us claiming that. (As for his brand of free will, he knew I didn't think anyone, man or angel or any being, had that, except God himself.)

There is something special about us God has intended for his particular use of us in Heaven. I'm not sure how to describe it. I'm sure some readers would scream, "FREE WILL" but I don't think that will even apply in Heaven —at least, certainly not as independent from God, but rather as totally IN HIM.

Well, the NT reveals that God chooses to show forth his glory through the glorification of his Son, who with his own life shall purchase from condemned mankind (Romans 5:18) a remnant to be God's own personal inheritance (Psalms 33:12; Ephesians 1:18), his treasured possession (Exodus 19:5; Deuteronomy 7:6, Deuteronomy 26:18; Malachi 3:17; Zephaniah 3:17; Isaiah 62:5; Psalms 149:4; Song of Songs); i.e., the church, the olive tree of both OT and NT saints, which is his body, the fullness of him (Ephesians 1:22-23), God counting himself incomplete (!) without his inheritance and treasure.

There is also the matter of Love. We seem to hold a special place of delight and satisfaction in God's heart, that I don't find much reference to concerning the angels.
I only see it mentioning that they are there, and rejoicing —which seems to be their way. My brother says they put him in mind of how adoring dogs are to us humans, servants of God totally taken up with love for God.

Also, I don't think "the spirits of the righteous made perfect" is a reference to the angels; but I know, you didn't say that they were. Just saying, in case you assumed they were.

They would be the spirits of the deceased saints, both OT and NT.

I don't see anywhere in Scripture to show angels growing in knowledge or righteousness or any other perfection, nor in fulfillment of any plan concerning them.

Are not the angels complete and fixed in their growth, just as we will be at the resurrection in our glorified, sinless, perfect bodies of eternity?

And at this point, would not the fulfillment of the plan concerning them be their ministry and care of the saints?

 

[zoidar]

it is self-contradictory to say that it is possible to create or even give uncaused things.

The proof that God can give us something uncaused lays in what I said, that God can give us his Spirit which is uncaused. From there I don't see the problem with God infusing an eternal soul with uncaused free will.

Can you even describe how a soul that is eternal can have been created? If God can create a soul that is eternal, I see no problem God creating a soul with free will.

The gift or the creating is in itself causing.

The giving has a cause, the gift itself doesn't have a cause. Don't mix that up. God can infuse a "capacity" He has that is uncaused to man if He likes. I have no problem with that.

With your reasoning, how can you even say God has free will? His will is based on His character right? Since He hasn't created His character, I don't see how God can have free will from your understanding.