What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Clare73]

There's hope for me after all. It only took an hour but I finally got it.

Yeah. . .'cause I never did.

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah. . .'cause I never did.

Doug threw away his spade and became Dug Less.

 

[Clare73]

They believe regeneration happens before repentance and not after. They don't believe regeneration and being saved is the same thing, but that regeneration leads to being saved.

John 3:3-8 presents the rebirth (regeneration) as necessary before everything else.
Faith, salvation, justification, adoption are all different concepts, but that's as far as we can go.
They're all part of one operation to the purpose of adoption.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So you believe that if a person died a few days after the cross and they were far away from Jerusalem and new nothing of what Jesus did they are without excuses even though they had no way of knowing? Does that sound like a loving act of God? Scripture must be understood through Gods love, but if we don’t understand Gods love we distort what we think scripture is telling us.

Men were saved by faith in the OT. No different with your scenario.

 

[zoidar]

John 3:3-8 presents the rebirth (regeneration) as necessary before everything else.

How so?

 

[Clare73]

One of the main problems I have with God decreeing everything is then no person can be held responsible for what he/she does. If I have been decreed by God to only have the will to eat blueberry pie, how can I then be responsible for eating it. Because it's my choice? But I have been decreed to will to choose it, so then the one who decreed it is responsible. That's simple logic.

Indeed it is!
And that is the very problem and question. . .and answer presented in Romans 9:18-23.

Your issue is not with theology, it is with the Scriptures.

The only way to make sense of sin and responsibility is free will, IMO. We are responsible for what we choose, therefore free will exist. Case closed!

Yes, fallen man chooses voluntarily, without external force or constraint, what he prefers, likes.
That is Biblical free will.

It's not having a choice that makes us responsable. Responsibility lies in who is the reason to will something. Am I the reason for my will or God?

Your nature, which is you, is the reason for what you will.
Just as the dog's nature is the reason the dog eats meat, and the rabbit's nature is the reason the rabbit does not eat meat.

 

[Clare73]

So you believe that if a person died a few days after the cross and they were far away from Jerusalem and new nothing of what Jesus did they are without excuses even though they had no way of knowing? Does that sound like a loving act of God?
Scripture must be understood through Gods love,

And. . .God's love must be understood through Scripture, rather than according to fallen man's notions, which measure everything by himself.

but if we don’t understand Gods love we distort what we think scripture is telling us.

Precisely. . .and there is a lot of "understanding" of God's love based in human notions rather than in the revealed Biblical notions, the first being that God's love (mercy) is governed by his justice.

 

[Clare73]

Doug threw away his spade and became Dug Less.

Yeah, when it was explained I finally got it.

 

[Clare73]

How so?

See post #2369.

 

[Greg Cheney]

You ask who could claim they know when he is speaking in terms people can understand. WHY should he speak in terms we can understand? And like that question, WHY should we know when he is speaking in terms people can understand? There is no reason we should know what the foregone conclusions are, so why should he tell us? He actually WANTS us to choose. We are not on his level, to know ahead everything that is going to happen and yet as humans to walk according to what is going to happen. Instead, as with all creation, we do what he has caused to happen.

But beyond that, all the verses you show, while I easily grant that they say that if people do this, he will do that, and if they do the other, he will do another thing, and therefore that what he will do is a result of what they choose to do, these do not show that he has not planned specifically just which thing they will choose and specifically which result of their choice will end up coming to pass. As I said in my last post, and I've been saying all along, the fact he lays before us options from which to choose, does not mean he has not chosen all along which we will choose. The choice is real. But what will actually happen, even as a result of our choice, is pretty obviously only the one thing.

The closest any of the verses you quoted comes to an idea of randomness in what we will choose, at least in English and probably in most English versions (I haven't researched it), in God's use of the term "peradventure" or "perhaps", is in Ex. 13:17 "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt." But all that word means there is something along the lines of 'lest it come to pass' (that they will change their minds about leaving Egypt) which is not his plan for them at that point.

"If" does not imply randomness, though we infer it.

It is not a choice if God chose it for them. That is playing with words. Without the ability to choose, it is not choosing. I deny that the reason people choose to reject God is because God chose that for them. This is not the same as turning someone over to a reprobate mind, which can happen.

 

[zoidar]

See post #2369.

What do you think John means by "see (eidon) the kingdom" in John 3:3?

 

[Clare73]

What do you think John means by "see (eidon) the kingdom" in John 3:3?

It's what Jesus means that matters, and that is in post #2369.

 

[zoidar]

Your nature, which is you, is the reason for what you will.
Just as the dog's nature is the reason the dog eats meat, and the rabbit's nature is the reason the rabbit does not eat meat.

What do you mean by "my nature"? Because I'm human I got an aquarium? Not all humans get aquariums, even they are of the same nature. So how can nature be reason for my will?

 

[Clare73]

What do you mean by "my nature"? Because I'm human I got an aquarium? Not all humans get aquariums, even they are of the same nature.

The same as the dictionary means: 3. innate or inherent character, disposition or temperament.

For the human, that would be rational (capable of reason and abstract thinking) and spiritual.

 

[zoidar]

It's what Jesus means that matters, and that is in post #2369.

Read it at least twice, wasn't in there...

 

[zoidar]

The same as the dictionary means: 3. innate or inherent character, disposition or temperament.

For the human, that would be rational (capable of reason and abstract thinking) and spiritual.

I think we discuss two different things. You are answering if we have free will to choose God. I'm answering if we have free will to choose an aquarium (non salvific things). I see it as two different questions.

 

[Clare73]

Read it at least twice, wasn't in there...

Is the following post #2369 on your screen?

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Did you miss the parentheses?

 

[Clare73]

I think we discuss two different things. You are answering if we have free will to choose God. I'm answering if we have free will to choose an aquarium (non salvific things). I see it as two different questions.

I'm not talking about free will at all.

I'm talking about the same thing that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is talking about; i.e., spiritual blindness of the spiritually dead man before regeneration (John 3:3-8).

 

[zoidar]

I'm not talking about free will at all.

I'm talking about the same thing that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is talking about; i.e., spiritual blindness of the spiritually dead man before regeneration (John 3:3-8).

You answered my post about free will...

 

[zoidar]

Is this post #2369 on your screen?

"No one can see (eidon--know, be acquainted with) the kingdom of God until he is born again. . .
No one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (cleanness, righteousness of Christ) and the Spirit. . .
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Did you miss the parentheses?

No, you don't say what it means by "the kingdom of God".