What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[iwbswiaihl]

Someone said: Thanks for the comments. . .wish I could return the favor, but your claim "of destruciton of Calvnism" limps somewhat in light of the fact that you do not deal with John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, where both Jesus and Paul emphatically present the absolute and total inability of unregenerate man to any spiritual work.

Yes, but look at what John said in 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is the same truth that non-Calvinist says must happens as does many other scripture passages. and the Romans chapter if we go on and read the verses after 7-8 say: 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So again, that simply agree with other scriptures that one must be born again, Matt 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” The scriptures convict's the heart of man that they must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to become the new creation in Christ Jesus, John 6:63 it is the Spirit that quickens the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you they are spirit and they are life.

 

[Clare73]

True and this states being dead in trespass and sin: Eph 2:1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. But when one is born of the Spirit this happens:
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

And spiritually dead--complete inability to do anything spiritually, is what Jesus and Paul are presenting in John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The dead don't reach out and grab the life preserver of the gospel.

That is NT teaching.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

We are not free to assign meanings to words used in Scripture.
Their meaning is determined by their use in Scripture.

The Biblical meaning and the Biblical use of divine "foreknowledge,"
is not God looking down the corridors of time and seing in advance what men are going to do.
Rather, according to Scipture, it is God knowing in advance what he is going to do because from the foundation of the world he has decreed that he shall do it.

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (forekowledge) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (foreknowledge executed), and they came to pass.

God executed in their present the purpose and choice he made before the foundations of the world; i.e.,
God executed/accomplished (acted according to)
his foreknowledge (his previous purpose and choice). . .as in Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).

And all of what you say PROVES WHAT? Foreknowledge meaning is not being disputed: I haven't read what others said about it, but all of scripture only demonstrates the omniscience of the Lord, He knows everything and the Holy Spirit inspired all scriptures, so as it is written, Matt 11:25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[Clare73]

All the teachers of the gospel were Jewish, your views on the Jews are way off the mark.

Heck, even Jesus was Jewish. . .

I'm thinkin' Paul knew what he meant when he referred to the divine foreknowledge, as we can see from the rest of Scripture itself, as well as from his context.

Your point?

 

[Clare73]

You promote replacement theology

I know nothing of "replacement theology". . .do you mean "fulfillment theology,"
that the OT church is fulfilled in the NT church, per Romans 11:17-23, where
the destiny of Israel is to be grafted back into the NT church. . .IF she does not persist in her unbelief
of over 2 millennia now, and counting.

And it would be funny (rating below) if her unbelief weren't so true. . .

and you are a closet Calvinist ism to the core.

Actually, I am a "Paulist."

So you have just made Calvin a Paulist also. . .good for Calvin!

 

[iwbswiaihl]

And spiritually dead--complete inability to do anything spiritually, is what Jesus and Paul are presenting in John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

The dead don't reach out and grab the life preserver of the gospel.

That is NT teaching.

Were you not dead spiritually before you believed on the Lord for your salvation? That would be a first time ever event, wouldn't it? 1 Cor 2: 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Did you discern spirit truths before you were aware of what the scriptures taught about being born from above as Jesus told Nicodemus? Its the word of God that brings the convicting power of God to bring one to desire to repent and believe the gospel. IS THIS NOT TRUE? If its false please show the scripture to disprove it, and if you could, the scriptures would be wrong because they teach, except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

 

[RickReads]

I know nothing of "replacement theology."
Do you mean "fulfillment theology," that the OT church is fulfilled in the NT church, per Romans 11:17-23, where
the destiny of Israel is to be grafted back into the NT church. . .IF she does not persist in her unbelief of over 2 millennia now, and counting.

Actually, I am a "Paulist."

So you have just made Calvin a Paulist also. . .good for Calvin!

If you were really a Paulist (Pauline is the correct man-made term) you would understand that in the next dispensation Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and that Israel will be His clergy.

 

[John Mullally]

"those he foreknew (purposed ahead of time, like Jacob), he also predestined. . ." (Romans 8:29-30)

The Jewish people at that time probably considered "those he foreknew" as being their ancestors and guys like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, etc. who knew God.

It wasn't until the "doomed from the womb" talk that things got twisted up.

Relevance?

A lot of the Jews at that time also thought that parts of the Mosaic law still applied.

What matters is what the NT demonstrably teaches, not what the Jewish people thought.

I doubt that Romans 8:29-30 was interpreted by many readers at that time as being about God decreeing everyone's eternal fate well ahead of time. “Those he foreknew” is simply talking about OT saints.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

 

[Clare73]

Someone said: Thanks for the comments. . .wish I could return the favor, but your claim "of destruciton of Calvnism" limps somewhat in light of the fact that you do not deal with John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, where both Jesus and Paul emphatically present the absolute and total inability of unregenerate man to any spiritual work. Yes, but look at what John said in 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. This is the same truth that non-Calvinist says must happens as does many other scripture passages.

I'm not really up to speed on arguments outside Scripture.

If you have a Scriptural argument, I will be happy to address that, assuming you state what that argument is.

and the Romans chapter if we go on and read the verses after 7-8 say: 9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So again, that simply agree with other scriptures that one must be born again, Matt 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” The scriptures convict's the heart of man that they must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to become the new creation in Christ Jesus, John 6:63 it is the Spirit that quickens the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you they are spirit and they are life.

 

[Clare73]

And all of what you say PROVES WHAT? Foreknowledge meaning is not being disputed:

Agreed. . .foreknowledge is not being disputed, it is being misunderstood. . .as being omniscience, which I addressed some 250 posts ago (post #1351) when it was misrepresented there as the same.

I haven't read what others said about it, but all of
scripture only demonstrates the omniscience of the Lord,

Divine foreknowledge is not about divine omniscience.
It's about God's own purpose and decrees set from before the foundation of the world, which he then executes in time according to that set purpose and decree (foreknowledge).

He knows everything and the Holy Spirit inspired all scriptures, so as it is written, Matt 11:25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[misput]

Good question. . .

There is that aspect of God separating from him that we cannot measure.
Lots of room for varying degrees of horror there.

Just another misunderstanding of scripture, study carefully Psalms 22, all of it.

 

[Clare73]

Were you not dead spiritually before you believed on the Lord for your salvation? That would be a first time ever event, wouldn't it? 1 Cor 2: 14The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Did you discern spirit truths before you were aware of what the scriptures taught about being born from above as Jesus told Nicodemus? Its the word of God that brings the convicting power of God to bring one to desire to repent and believe the gospel. IS THIS NOT TRUE? If its false please show the scripture to disprove it, and if you could, the scriptures would be wrong because they teach, except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Not sure what your question is. . .perhaps you could frame it in terms of the following:

A spiritually dead man hears the gospel, something in him quickens (new birth), what he hears has meaning, he wants more of it, his heart is moved to respond, believe and repent.

 

[Clare73]

If you were really a Paulist (Pauline is the correct man-made term) you would understand that in the next dispensation Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem and that Israel will be His clergy.

No, "Pauline" is an adjective, "Paulist" is a noun.

Please show where you find the above in NT apostolic teaching of Paul. . .limiting yourself to Paul.

 

[Clare73]

I doubt that Romans 8:29-30 was interpreted by many readers at that time as being about God decreeing everyone's eternal fate well ahead of time.

Agreed. . .because that is not what Paul is presenting.

“Those he foreknew” is simply talking about OT saints.

In terms of NT usage and meaning, you are using "foreknew" incorrectly there.

"Foreknew" goes back to before the foundations of the world, and God's purpose and decrees regarding things all the way to the end of time.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.​

 

[Clare73]

Just another misunderstanding of scripture, study carefully Psalms 22, all of it.

Good prophetic general description of what went down, confirming my comment.

 

[RickReads]

No, "Pauline" is an adjective, "Paulist" is a noun.

Please show where you find the above in NT apostolic teaching of Paul. . .limiting yourself to Paul.

Titus 4:1

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Not sure what your question is. . .perhaps you could frame it in terms of the following:

A spiritually dead man hears the gospel, something in him quickens (new birth), what he hears has meaning, he wants more of it, his heart is moved to respond, believe and repent.

That is what I stated in the above which you did not notice! Here it is again; "Its the word of God that brings the convicting power of God to bring one to desire to repent and believe the gospel. IS THIS NOT TRUE?" From the post above #1592

I went back and saw this post #1590 and commented on foreknowledge and omniscience, but let me ask you this; since the Lord is omniscience and knows everything about everything, would that not include the fact that He has foreknowledge about everything that will happens or is He learning something when it takes place? Webster dictionary 1913
Om`nis´cience
n. 1. The quality or state of being omniscient; the quality of knowing everything; - an attribute peculiar to God.
WordNet Dictionary
Noun 1. omniscience - the state of being omniscient; having infinite knowledge

Fore`knowl´edge
n. 1. Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
If I foreknew,

 

[Clare73]

That is what I stated in the above which you did not notice! Here it is again; "Its the word of God that brings the convicting power of God to bring one to desire to repent and believe the gospel. IS THIS NOT TRUE?" From the post above #1592

It is the Holy Spirit that brings the convicting power when the word of God is heard.
The power in the word of God is the Holy Spirit. . .at work.

The word of God is the means of convicting by the Holy Spirit.

I went back and saw this post #1590 and commented on foreknowledge and omniscience, but let me ask you this; since the Lord is omniscience and knows everything about everything, would that not include the fact that He has foreknowledge about everything that will happens or is He learning something when it takes place? Webster dictionary 1913
Om`nis´cience
n. 1. The quality or state of being omniscient; the quality of knowing everything; - an attribute peculiar to God.
WordNet Dictionary
Noun 1. omniscience - the state of being omniscient; having infinite knowledge

God "learns" nothing. . .he has decreed the end from the beginning (Isaiah 48:3).
Those decrees, which determine outcomes, are his foreknowledge. . .of what he has decreed shall happen, not of anything that happens apart from him, for nothing happens apart from his decrees and their outcomes.

Fore`knowl´edge
n. 1. Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
If I foreknew,

Keeping in mind, the meaning of foreknowledge as used in the NT is what Scripture shows it to be; i.e., Isaiah 48:3.

 

[John Mullally]

.

 

[RickReads]

Its the same word as used in Romans 11:2.

Romans 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,​

The remnant was the Jews who believed in Jesus.


5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.