What is wrong with Calvinism ?

John Mullally said:

The whole council of God - ha, ha, if you knew that you would not be a Calvinist. Make an argument. I am not wasting my time giving commentary on a list of scriptural passages -

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Q.E.D.

zoidar said:

Yes, that God does it for His purposes and we are not to ask why. To me that is a good argument for rejecting this view. If I'm not allowed to ask why, it shows me it doesn't hold water.

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I'm sorry that Isaiah 55:8-9; Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 9:20-23 are not sufficient Scriptural answers to your questions.

You are free to accept or reject Scripture.

Your issue is with Scripture, not with me.

Mark Quayle said:

I hope you don't think the below is "junk".

Ephesians 2: "1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

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Well, I intend to continue to ignore the baggage. Ephesians 2 will work just fine as a discussion point but I need you to tell me which of your points it ties into and why.

Clare73 said:

I'm sorry you are not in agreement with Isaiah 55:8-9; Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 9:20-23.

Your issue is with Scripture, not with me.

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I sincerely hope you understand one day that scripture needs to be interpreted.

zoidar said:

I sincerely hope you understand one day that scripture needs to be interpreted. If it wasn't so there would only be one church organisation.

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I think the meaning of its words in the plain Greek statements here are rather plain.

What do you not understand in those Scriptures that you would like me to explain (interpret)?

Do you really think it is "interpretation" that is needed, or belief of what they state?

Clare73 said:

Q.E.D.

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You prove nothing other than your disposition. Like I said I will answer specific questions. I do not give commentaries on a list of scriptures to an adversarial man who has told me I am ignorant of scripture.

Jesus is YHWH said:

Angels were a creation . Colossians 1:16-17 attests to that fact

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That would make an interesting discussion thread. I think it depends on which "heavens" is mentioned in Genesis 1:1 to determine the age in which they were created.

Clare73 said:

Deuteronomy 29:29.

Are we prying now. . .requiring that we know what he knows. . .trying to manage the sovereign God?

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Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse to me: "I have no answer but I refuse to admit it."

Clare73 said:

The purpose being for the well-being of his children.

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So the purpose God created A for judgement was for the well-being of B? Does that answer why God didn't instead create B for judgement for the well-being of A?

John Mullally said:

Congratulations! You are wise in your own eyes.

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He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool—shun him;
he who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple—teach him;
he who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep—wake him;
he who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise—follow him.
--Arab proverb.

zoidar said:

Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse to me: "I have no answer but I refuse to admit it.

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Subjective. . .rather than demonstrated fact.

Clare73 said:

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, he is a fool—shun him;
he who knows not, and knows that he knows not, he is simple—teach him;
he who knows, and knows not that he knows, he is asleep—wake him;
he who knows, and knows that he knows, he is wise—follow him.

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OK Captain Kirk, I will set my phaser to Shun.

zoidar said:

So the purpose God created A for judgement was for the well-being of B? Does that answer why God didn't instead create B for judgement for the well-being of A?

And still it doesn't explain why B was created to be God's child instead of A.

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Agreed. . .

Surely you aren't thinking it is my responsibility to defend or justify God in Romans 9:18-24. . .right?

John Mullally said:

OK Captain Kirk, I will set my phaser to Shun.

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Fire all phasers at Kirk!

Clare73 said:

Agreed. . .

Surely you aren't thinking it is my responsibility to defend or justify God in Romans 9:18-24. . .right?

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No, I don't! I'm fine with the answer that the Bible isn't giving us the answer. But you go on saying the Bible does give the answer to my question. That's where I have a problem.

The reason I posted about this was as a defense to the belief of free will. Trying to show that Calvinism and Armininism has a similar problem.

zoidar said:

No, I don't! I'm fine with the answer that the Bible isn't giving us the answer. But you go on saying the Bible does give the answer to my question. That's where I have a problem.

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Okay. . .I consider Romans 9:21 an answer.

The reason I posted about this was as a defense to the belief of free will. Trying to show that Calvinism and Armininism has a similar problem.

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Don't know what their problems are, but Scripture presents "limited" free will; i.e., the power to freely and voluntarily choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.

John Mullally said:

According to Calvinist's, God channels man's supposed free will wherever He desires. They say man is born total depraved and must follow the dictates of satan. Except for the foreordained ones for whom at some point He changes their hearts out-of-the-blue, and suddenly they can freely and willingly cooperate with God. Calvinist's preach that God receives glory from the destruction of the ones He left in the state of Total Depravity (a state in which they are unable to cooperate with God).

No, God is not like that - per 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God desires all to be saved.

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Ah yes, total depravity. I'm sure somewhere in the scriptures it must say something about what mankind is like. Oh yes Romans 3:11 thru 18 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” But wait that was just the Apostle Paul (who wrote almost half on the New Testament), so lets see what God the Son has to say and THAT should settle it. Matthew 15:19 "“For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies." Hmm, nuttin good there either? Nope, we are rotten to the core.

I feel sorry for your God, a God who is a slave to man's sinful free will. If our free will tells us to get saved, we get saved (of course satan will have something to say about that, like NO you are not!) And if our free will says "I love to sin more than righteousness" then we stay unregenerated. Eve used her free will in the Garden of Eden instead of following God's revealed will and we now reap the whirlwind of it. Death, wars, destruction, sin, murder, rape, adultery, abortion, lies, homosexuality, sexual perversions galore, lies, stealing and the list goes on and on. King Saul lost his kingdom because he followed his free will and not God's revealed will (1 Samuel 15:9.)

So you are worried about God's will in leaving some people in total depravity. We were all in total depravity at one point in our lives and then God "chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4) God in His sovereignty decided to save some of us and He left the rest to their own devices and you are questioning Him for doing that? The clay has no right to question the Potter about what the Potter makes from the same lump of clay, either a thunder mug or a water pitcher. (See Romans 9:21.) Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory." Meaning? If God chooses to glorify Himself through letting people go their own way (free will) and letting them righteously receive His wrath so as to make His power known, who can oppose Him? He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy. As well, if God desires to be more than fair with others, showing them His mercy, who can oppose Him? God is sovereign. We do not have the right to question His authority to do as He wishes with His creation.

1 Timothy 2:4 "[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." So we have two choices, since God desires ALL to be saved ALL will be saved, 100%! Hell will only be inhabited by satan and his demons. That means that Judas made it, even though Jesus said he didn't in John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." So ALL didn't make it. Millions die every day and go to a Christless grave. Neither of my parents were saved, neither was my older sister or brother, and I'm sure you know of people that were not saved when they died.

Two, it means the gospel must be presented to ALL without reservation, Jews and Gentiles, Kings and knaves, rich people and poor people, males and females, young and old, famous and not famous people, ALL must be presented with the gospel because Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven. The God of the Holy Scriptures is like that, sorry about yours.

Clare73 said:

Okay. . .I consider Romans 9:21 an answer.

Don't know what their problems are, but the NT presents "limited" free will; i.e., the power to freely and voluntarily choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers, likes.

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Concerning Arminianism it's the question Mark Quayle posted. Something like why A is "choosing" Christ but not B. What is it with A that makes him do the better choice, is A better than B? Is it chance? The answer is, I have no idea why, other than I believe free will is involved. So I see that as a similar dilemma as we have in Calvinism where we don't know why God creates A for heaven but not B.

zoidar said:

So we are not to ask "why"? You think it is dangerous?

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I believe that God is absolutely sovereign over absolutely everything and absolutely everyone. Questioning Him about His authority to do as He wishes to what He created could result in a quick trip to the grave. Romans 9:19-20 "You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?" Paul shows how disrespectful such a question is. If God says He chooses, and if God also says that we are responsible before Him, who are we to question Him?

AVB 2 said:

Questioning Him about His authority to do as He wishes to what He created could result in a quick trip to the grave.

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I don't think anyone here has questioned His authority to do what He wishes...