What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Presbyterian Continuist · May 22, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
He said tulip is the gospel and one must believe the gospel to be saved right ?

here is Spurgeon:

And I have my own private opinion, that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism. Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor, I think, can we preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation, after having believed. Such a gospel I abhor. The gospel of the Bible is not such a gospel as that. We preach Christ and him crucified in a different fashion, and to all gainsayers we reply, ‘We have not so learned Christ.’ [Spurgeon’s Sermons, vol. I (Baker Books, reprinted 2007), 88-89.]

Note that he says Calvinism is the Gospel, not the Gospel is Calvinism. He goes on to list the components of the Gospel of Christ.

If you believe that when someone is born again he can be unborn and then reborn and reborn and reborn, then you are departing from what the Bible says about being born again by the Spirit of God. Also there is no such thing as temporary eternal life. Eternal life is just that - eternal life. Being a child of God is not like being on Facebook and being unfriended. A genuinely converted believer will be filled with the Holy Spirit and departing from Christ will be unthinkable. The Arminian view that a person can be born again today and then be unborn tomorrow comes from easy believerism when a person can decide for Christ today and then decide against Him tomorrow. Such easy believers get just "religion" and think they are saved just by saying a short prayer. True believers continue to press into God by repenting of sin, and seeking Him for the total transformation that comes through the Holy Spirit working in them to achieve it.

Presbyterian Continuist · May 22, 2022

NotreDame said:
“Election” is not a Biblical mystery.

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”

God’s omniscience permitted Him to perfectly foreknow, before any creation, A.) who would accept and follow Jesus and B.) Based on A, God had a plan, implemented the plan, that those who accepted and followed Jesus would have eternal life. The “elect” are those who, in God’s judgment, satisfied being saved by His son Jesus. For this group is designated by Him as the “elect,” made possible by His son and the free choices of people.

This is a correct understanding of how some are elected to salvation and others remain reprobate. In actual fact, everyone starts reprobate, deserving of Hell, and it is only through God's grace through faith in Christ that causes the person to be born again.

God did not predetermine who was going be elected and who was going to remain reprobate. Because every person was reprobate because of Adam's sin, God has set up His plan of salvation involving the death of Jesus on the Cross and the open invitation to all to believe the Gospel and received Jesus as Saviour. He allowed everyone to choose one way or the other. The ones who chose to believe the Gospel as it was preached to them, the Holy Spirit enlightened them and gave them "saving faith" to fully receive Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to complete the full born again transformation in their hearts and lives. And God, through His foreknowledge, knew who was going to choose for Christ and who was going to reject the Gospel. On the basis of this knowledge, He wrote the names of those who were going to choose for Christ in the Book of Life.

So, it is as simple as that: Believe the Gospel and be saved; Ignore or reject the Gospel and be lost.

RickReads · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
Note that he says Calvinism is the Gospel, not the Gospel is Calvinism. He goes on to list the components of the Gospel of Christ.

If you believe that when someone is born again he can be unborn and then reborn and reborn and reborn, then you are departing from what the Bible says about being born again by the Spirit of God. Also there is no such thing as temporary eternal life. Eternal life is just that - eternal life. Being a child of God is not like being on Facebook and being unfriended. A genuinely converted believer will be filled with the Holy Spirit and departing from Christ will be unthinkable. The Arminian view that a person can be born again today and then be unborn tomorrow comes from easy believerism when a person can decide for Christ today and then decide against Him tomorrow. Such easy believers get just "religion" and think they are saved just by saying a short prayer. True believers continue to press into God by repenting of sin, and seeking Him for the total transformation that comes through the Holy Spirit working in them to achieve it.

That isn't what Arminians believe, at best only a confused Arminian would believe that.

Jesus is YHWH · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
Note that he says Calvinism is the Gospel, not the Gospel is Calvinism. He goes on to list the components of the Gospel of Christ.

If you believe that when someone is born again he can be unborn and then reborn and reborn and reborn, then you are departing from what the Bible says about being born again by the Spirit of God. Also there is no such thing as temporary eternal life. Eternal life is just that - eternal life. Being a child of God is not like being on Facebook and being unfriended. A genuinely converted believer will be filled with the Holy Spirit and departing from Christ will be unthinkable. The Arminian view that a person can be born again today and then be unborn tomorrow comes from easy believerism when a person can decide for Christ today and then decide against Him tomorrow. Such easy believers get just "religion" and think they are saved just by saying a short prayer. True believers continue to press into God by repenting of sin, and seeking Him for the total transformation that comes through the Holy Spirit working in them to achieve it.

No he means tulip is the gospel

fhansen · May 23, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

Yes, it seems to me that love is left out of many theologies, confessions, catechisms, sermons, etc, as being the absolute center and focus of our faith, together with its Author and Source. Love is what He has for us, the reason He died for us, and that which He wants us to have as well. Love defines justice or righteousness for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

Jesus is YHWH · May 23, 2022

fhansen said:
Yes, it seems to me that love is left out of many theologies, confessions, catechisms, sermons, etc, as being the absolute center and focus of our faith, together with its Author and Source. Love is what He has for us, the reason He died for us, and that which He wants us to have as well. Love defines justice or righteousness for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

Amen !

TedT · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
The Gospel of Christ is that "smoke alarm" and receiving Christ as Saviour is the fire escape. Those who perish are those who ignore the salvation that the Gospel of Christ offers.

Does the presence of the smoke alarm mitigate the fact that the father has put us into a fire trap, not a paradise? Would the gospel be needed if He did not cause us to be born into Adam's sinfulness?

TedT · May 23, 2022

com7fy8 said:
What about Romans 8:29? All was created for God's Son Jesus, because of His love for Jesus. He made this universe as His place for having and growing children who are pleasing to Him like Jesus is.

But inherited sinfulness (as supposedly proven by the death of infants) means that HE first needed HIS children to be disgustingly evil by HIS will, not their will, (perhaps the more evil the better), for HIM to be able to achieve HIS goal of the heavenly paradise.

<head shake> <facepalm>

TedT · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
God being sovereign means that He does what He pleases and does not have to answer to anyone.

HIS sovereignty does not mean that He does not need to answer to HIMself, HIS own moral nature.

HIS sovereignty serves HIS moral nature; it does not produce or cause it. HIS sovereignty does not allow HIM to do evil...

TedT · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
Charles Spurgeon taught that we must put believing the Gospel of Christ and receiving Christ must come first, then sorting out election should come afterward.

I believe he was an honest man honestly trying to resolve the unresolvable except by accepting the doublethink necessary to ignore that election to salvation in fact DOES mean the non-elect are passed over for election to salvation so are in essence elected to reprobation.

Accepting three scripturally defendable premises:
1. we existed before the foundation of the physical universe, world and
2. we made a free will decision to accept or reject GOD's claims to be our GOD and that salvation from all sin was only found in the Son and
3. our free will responses to GOD's call to have faith (an unproven hope) in HIM was the basis, the reason, by which HE chose who to elect to salvation (if they should ever sin) and who to pass over for salvation as eternally unable to ever be holy, ie, those who sinned the unforgivable sin of rebuking HIM as a liar and a false god driven by a psychotic megalomania.

solves the irreconcilable easily. Every person created in HIS image chose their own FATE by their own free will and then those who chose to be sinners, either by that original choice or by a later rebellion to HIS commands, were given predertmined LIVES, predetermined and predestined to be the best possible life each sinful elect could have to bring them to redemption and holy sanctification, heaven ready to be HIS Bride.

Jesus is YHWH · May 23, 2022

Jesus atonement/ death was a provision for all not just an "elect ,chosen, predestined " group. The atonement is not limited, its unlimited

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

hope this helps !!!

TedT · May 23, 2022

Der Alte said:
Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.

INDEED...

...but predestination was not the cause of their fate found in GOD's will but the prediction of their fate caused by their own free will which GOD accepted!

Jesus is YHWH · May 23, 2022

Oscarr said:
So you don't believe that he said that we must believe the Gospel first then worry about election after. Correct?

Spurgeon defines the gospel as the "doctrines of grace " or TULIP. That is not the gospel.

Paul defines the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.

There is no unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace in the passage. So Spurgeon is actually adding to the gospel which Paul condemns in Galatians 1

hope this helps !!!

TedT · May 23, 2022

NotreDame said:
The “predestined” is in relation to those who, by their own free will, choose Christ. For this group of people He predestined eternal life.

AGREED!

...but this does not reconcile with the enslavement of sinners to evil, their free will suppressed by sin, and that salvation is NOT by their will but by the grace of GOD, ie by HIS will.

When did they get to choose their fate by choosing Christ? If it was after they became sinners than why is that grace not given to all sinners since they are all equally sinful in HIS sight??? And if it was before they chose to be sinful, when was that? Before the foundation of the world obviously...in fact, not just in HIS imagination.

public hermit · May 23, 2022

NotreDame said:
The “predestined” is in relation to those who, by their own free will, choose Christ. For this group of people He predestined eternal life.

Are you saying they predestined themselves?

NotreDame said:
God’s omniscience permitted Him to perfectly foreknow, before any creation, A.) who would accept and follow Jesus and B.) Based on A, God had a plan, implemented the plan, that those who accepted and followed Jesus would have eternal life. The “elect” are those who, in God’s judgment, satisfied being saved by His son Jesus. For this group is designated by Him as the “elect,” made possible by His son and the free choices of people

They elected themselves?

It sounds like predestination and election mean neither predestined nor election. They simply mean we choose our own fate and that's the end of it. God isn't doing any predestining or electing; God is simply going along. I think that approach absolves God of most responsibility, sans creating everything, but it seems to empty those words of their meaning.

BNR32FAN · May 23, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Love is one of the primary and essential attributes which reflect the nature and character of God. The word Theology refers to the study of God, and God is Triune, a Trinity- Tri-Unity. All doctrine begins with God at its starting point. God’s innate attributes are Aseity (God is self-sufficient), Infinite (without limit), Eternal (God has no beginning or end, he is timeless), Immutable (God is unchanging), Love (God is love), Holy (God is set-apart), Perichoresis (the indwelling of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Divine Simplicity states God is Love and because He is Love, not because He possesses that quality. God's love is the center of all the Divine Attributes. They point to His Being. God is not distinct from His nature.

God is Love. In love, the Father sent the Son on our behalf to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. We Love because He first loved us and sent His Son as 1 John 4 tells us.

We must understand how God's attributes all work in harmony together, not in opposition to each other. God's attributes and character flow from His love—for God is love.

God being love has nothing to do with His creation. That is secondary. God is love, and that love is perfect, lacking nothing within His Triune nature as God. Love, by definition, has to be expressed with another, which is why a unitarian god cannot be love. Love requires another to share and express that love, and it is what we see with the Triune God. God is love before anyone/anything existed.

In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes.

Another interesting fact is that in the Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith, question 4 “What is God “? We read the following regarding Gods attributes and notice what is left out.

“God is Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. “

Notice like in Calvin’s Institute’s, the WCF leaves out Gods primary attribute that He is love.

Before creation, there was no sin. There was no judgment, wrath, mercy, grace, and justice. There was no Sovereignty for there was no creation to be Sovereign over. Why do you ask about those attributes and that they were not necessary? Because those are God's secondary attributes concerning the creation and the fall. God's love is a primary attribute, like Holy is a primary one. Everything about God flows from His being Love which includes His secondary attributes, which were not in use until the creation and the fall.

The true nature of Gods love is at the heart of the gospel message: God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in His shall not perish but have everlasting life, John 3:16.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

Shorter Westminster Catechism of Faith lists “justice” as one of God’s attributes yet the definition of the word “justice” includes impartiality. Obviously Calvin’s theology is in opposition to the idea that God is impartial.

BNR32FAN · May 23, 2022

NotreDame said:
The manner in which you use the word “predestined,” suggesting God created them to choose Him, is problematic.

The “predestined” is in relation to those who, by their own free will, choose Christ. For this group of people He predestined eternal life.

Free will is where the person has it in their power to enage in some action or refrain from it. There isn’t an external force or external entity causing the person to behave. There isn’t an antecedent condition or cause.

Amen hence 1 Peter 1:1-2

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN · May 23, 2022

public hermit said:
It sounds like predestination and election mean neither predestined nor election. They simply mean we choose our own fate and that's the end of it. God isn't doing any predestining or electing; God is simply going along. I think that approach absolves God of most responsibility, sans creating everything, but it seems to empty those words of their meaning.

Predestined means to choose or appoint beforehand. God being omniscient and omnipresent chose the elect before creation because He has already foreseen everything. That’s why 1 Peter 1:1-2 says we were chosen according to His foreknowledge not randomly chosen. There’s no salvation lottery winners.

public hermit · May 23, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
In the monumental work of Calvin’s Institutes , it is interesting for a man with such an attention to detail when it comes to dogma and Scripture that he left out any mention of Gods primary attribute that God is love (1 John 4:8;16) and any biblical reference to those two verses in 1 John regarding God is love. His institutes contain thousands of bible references and over 1500 pages in his Institutes

I'm glad you pointed this out. I looked at the index in my copy, and you're right. I looked in the index of his treatise Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God and he doesn't use them there either.

I also happen to have Calvin's commentaries, as well (I know-it appears as if I'm a huge fan, and at one time I was). Here's something wild, he skips 1 John 4:8 altogether, straight from 7 to 9. Here is what he says at the end of v.7

Away, then, with that foolish gloss respecting unformed faith. For when any one separates faith from love, it is the same as though he attempted to take away heat from the sun.

Well, what could that mean? He tells us because he does comment on 4:16:

God is love. This is as it were the minor proposition in an argument; for from faith to love he reasons in this way: By faith God dwells in us, and God is love; then, wherever God abides, love ought to be there. Hence it follows that love is necessarily connected with faith.

Calvin flat out rejects that God loves all. It looks like God's love is only in relation to those predetermined to salvation, i.e., faith. I don't know if Calvin ever comes out and rejects love as an essential attribute of God, but it would seem what he says here would support such a rejection. Plus, for Calvin, the only aspect of God that really matters is the divine will, which is inscrutable. Ironically, I don't think he ever uses the word "sovereignty" in the Institutes.

I agree that this absence of love as an essential attribute that is in relation to all is a problem. It's no wonder Calvinists are so adamant that God does not love all. Those passages only refer to those who have faith.

public hermit · May 23, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Predestined means to choose or appoint beforehand. God being omniscient and omnipresent chose the elect before creation because He has already foreseen everything. That’s why 1 Peter 1:1-2 says we were chosen according to His foreknowledge not randomly chosen. There’s no salvation lottery winners.

Yeah, God "chose to elect" those God foresaw would have faith. That's not predestination or election in any usual sense of the word. That's just God creating what God foresaw would be. You're basically saying God elected to create. Using the words "predestination" or "election" adds nothing new to the simple fact God chose to create this world and not some other. In other words, those two words are emptied of any meaning. Trust me, I'm not trying to defend Calvin, but your position has some issues.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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