What is wrong with Calvinism ?

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 5, 2022

Guojing said:
If you define faith as including works, then it is not faith (Romans 4:5).

Faith without works is dead James to and those with saving faith were created fir the purpose of good works that you should walk in them as per Ephesians 2:8-10. No fruit, no root. Jesus cuts off the dead unfruitful branches and throws them into the fire to be burned in John 15:1-8.

hope this helps !!!

Guojing · Sep 5, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Faith without works is dead James to and those with saving faith were created fir the purpose of good works that you should walk in them as per Ephesians 2:8-10. No fruit, no root. Jesus cuts off the dead unfruitful branches and throws them into the fire to be burned in John 15:1-8.

hope this helps !!!

There is a difference between saying

Faith without works cannot save you, and
Faith includes works in its definition.

Mark Quayle · Sep 5, 2022

philadelphos said:
Exactly.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Israelite and Jewish children are "sons of the commandment" (bar mitzvah) as they are raised 'under the Torah' or Pentateuch, pre-eminent to 'the law' itself in the litigious sense (e.g. the way they argued against Christ), and predating the 'prophets' (bar Moses), psalms, et al, and NT. Similar is taught to Christian children, those at new missionary churches, etc. The problem is that this teaching typically ends prematurely. i.e. supercessionism.

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." (Deu 4:2)

The first 5 books are the fundamental 'foundation' of Christ. Hence the Lord said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me" (Jn 5:46)-- Deviation from this is where all errors or 'heresy' originates, inc. papal authority, bishops, ministers, reverends, 'teaching elders', doctors of theology, church councils, whatever. These para-religions are not from Christ, thus are inevitably anti-Christ (both lower case and capitalised).

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. ... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Mt 7:21-23)

People at Christ's time were debating about Hillel and Shammai, just like this thread.

The reason Christ taught of a 'Good Samaritan' is because the Samaritans take the above so seriously that the Torah/Pentateuch is followed exclusively. In fact, the Samaritans challenge nearly all the decisions regarding at Jerusalem, from David, Solomon, etc. Similar for the Essenes who penned the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And as we know from the parable, this manifested in the 'good deeds' or 'good works' ("charity") done in going above and beyond to help another man who 'fell among thieves'. Victim to theft is the case for most people living under our current kleptocratic authorities. It goes back to the Serpent and Eve, Jacob defrauding Isaac.

Jerusalem, however was corrupt: Priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, all deviated from the foundation therefore could not see Christ. Christ's rejection of these groups is numerous, even the physical location has been destroyed. The kleptocracy was profiteering and snickering at their congregations expense. The same is true now, except churches are doing the same.

And yet the Lord did not discredit them entirely: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 5:20)--Indicating that their base principles regarding Scriptural 'purity' and emphasis on the Torah are correct, however their interpretation and teaching (doctrine and system of religion) regarding the 'application' that is in error and will thus yield no fruit. e.g. the vanity of religious ritualism. It is a path of death. -- Nicodemus could not understand Christ for this reason, his presupposition lacked the notion of a physical 're-birth' and other things. Resurrection and a new kingdom was bizarre to him as it was for Christ's disciples. Yet ironically, Zoroastrianism from Persia/Media/Central Asia had already grasped this 1500-1200 BC! In the same way God has repeatedly used Gentiles to arouse "jealousy" in Israel/Judah.

'Calvin's Calvinism' agrees in this principally but deviates elsewhere unfortunately, I believe due to political pressure from the Council of Geneva (Genevan Consistory), political reasons for the purposes of progress ('semper reformanda') at the expense of truth, but also his character/temper. That Calvin was a man and his ideas cannot be taken as Gospel or divine revelation.

He wrote: "By the Law, I understand not only the Ten Commandments, which contain a complete rule of life, but the whole system of religion delivered by the hand of Moses." (Calvin, Institutes)

I repeat the irony: Torah/Pentateuch = "a complete rule of life"

Quoting McMahon:

The Law plays an integral part in the whole schema of redemptive history. Man cannot keep it, and so a Mediator must arise who can keep it and fulfill its requirement. Calvin sees the Law of God as the whole system of religion handed down by God to Moses. The moral Law has its end in Christ, as Paul makes so plain in Romans and Galatians. The Law, Calvin says, makes men inexcusable. If they kept the law perfectly (which none do) then God would be obliged to reward them with eternal life. However, all break the law and have broken the law in Adam. Thus the Law stands to condemn them. The Law also keeps men from doing evil. It restrains them, which is necessary for society to function properly. For believers, though, the Law is used for teaching and for exhortation. “Confronted by the Commandments, we learn how far we are from righteousness.” Thus its final purpose is to provide the pattern by which we must live in perfect conformity to mirror God’s righteousness. The Old Covenant was used as a type of the perfect fulfillment of Christ to come and is completed in him.

(A Short Summary of Calvin's Institutes - by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon, A Short Summary of Calvin’s Institutes – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind)

This is where Jerusalem, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Dispensationalists et al are in error. Re-categorisation of 'Mosaic Law' and or hateful anti-semitism. -- "They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land." (Ps 74:8) and the Reformers said: "Set fire to their synagogues or schools" (Luther, on the Jews and their lies)

All of us are born into a certain thought culture that shapes our thinking rightly or wrongly, we are all tainted, errant, heretical, and complicit in the death of Christ in that regard.

My encouragement to all believers on CC is to focus on the fundamentals, to build one's house/life on the solid rock that is Christ: "That ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you" (1 Thes 4:11) -- And placing one's 'faith' and 'hope' in Christ, without dismissing God's original promises.

Blessings to all

Hence, my point: That many (perhaps most) Reformed and Calvinists are not so because of the denomination, but that the denomination aligns with what THEY believe, and not the other way around —at least, that is one way to put it. I don't believe what I do because I'm Reformed, but it is the closest generally known theological system I can identify with.

I think it is a mistake to identify or represent the Reformed and Calvinism by Luther and Calvin. You are right that the fundamentals are the point, but the denominations have migrated quite a distance from the old political stances.

And I don't know any believers personally, that I know to hate the Jews.

This, I love: "All of us are born into a certain thought culture that shapes our thinking rightly or wrongly, we are all tainted, errant, heretical, and complicit in the death of Christ in that regard.", though I have to say it is not only because of thought culture. It is one of my pet peeves, that one denomination looks down on another as though "we have it right". If God is omnipotent and infinite, and we are not, none of us has it quite right. And all of us are cultic in some respects.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Guojing said:
Looking at John 3:16 and John 20:31, one question to clarify regarding your interpretation, to see whether you are anticipating revelation by reading Paul into those verses, as I earlier claimed you were doing.

I don't need to anticipate the revelation, because I have received it from the Spirit sent down from Heaven.

That is not a Pauline teaching, it is the teaching of Christ. His teaching was men must be born again (from above, born of God) in order to see and enter the Kingdom of God. He teaches the way that men are born again is by His death on the Cross. He teaches that men that believe in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

And we are still left with the fact that believing is the only requirement Christ states is necessary for men to be saved.

So where is this other stuff you keep alluding to? Where in John 3:16 do we see more than just believing?

Guojing said:
Can you believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God" without also believing he died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification"?

No, one must believe specifically in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died and arose so that men might not perish but have everlasting life.

The fact that it was not taking place at that time doesn't change His teaching.

No man was believing in Him at that time, not even His disciples.

But His teaching, prophetic though it may be, is still very simple, and is the same Gospel preached by Paul and the other Apostles.

So just show where in john 3:16 there is more than "just believing." That's all you have to do.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Sep 5, 2022

Guojing said:
There is a difference between saying

Faith without works cannot save you, and

Faith includes works in its definition.

And there is a difference betweeen James speaking about Temporal Justification and James speaking about Eternal Redemption.

Abraham was not eternally redeemed based on his faith or works. He was eternally redeemed because Jesus Christ died in his stead.

James 2 and Romans 4 speak of Temporal Justification (again, not salvation, particularly Eternal Salvation), and Romans 3 speaks of Justification in an Eternal context.

When Calvinists and Arminians understand this the debate goes away.

God bless.

Guojing · Sep 5, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
No, one must believe specifically in the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died and arose so that men might not perish but have everlasting life.

God bless.

So that is what you are believing in, then you have to agree that John 3:16, together with John 20:31, cannot be the gospel that saves today.

John 3:16 says Israel must believe in the identity of Jesus, that he is the Son of God (John 20:31).

It says nothing about Israel needing to believe that Christ died and rose again on the 3rd day.

Scripture is clear that Peter, for example, believe in the former but not the latter, during Jesus's earthly ministry, the key verses are found in Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Guojing · Sep 5, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
So just show where in john 3:16 there is more than "just believing." That's all you have to do.

God bless.

I already did in my other reply to you here What is wrong with Calvinism ?

philadelphos · Sep 6, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Hence, my point: That many (perhaps most) Reformed and Calvinists are not so because of the denomination, but that the denomination aligns with what THEY believe, and not the other way around —at least, that is one way to put it. I don't believe what I do because I'm Reformed, but it is the closest generally known theological system I can identify with.

I think it is a mistake to identify or represent the Reformed and Calvinism by Luther and Calvin. You are right that the fundamentals are the point, but the denominations have migrated quite a distance from the old political stances.

And I don't know any believers personally, that I know to hate the Jews.

This, I love: "All of us are born into a certain thought culture that shapes our thinking rightly or wrongly, we are all tainted, errant, heretical, and complicit in the death of Christ in that regard.", though I have to say it is not only because of thought culture. It is one of my pet peeves, that one denomination looks down on another as though "we have it right". If God is omnipotent and infinite, and we are not, none of us has it quite right. And all of us are cultic in some respects.

I feel you, however, fruit doesn't fall far from the Reformer's tree.

IME, the deeper you swim the darker it gets. TBC, I'm not saying every Calvinist, but there exists a gnostic inner circle mentality that governs Calvinism and Reformed theology. A para-church or shadow church has existed throughout history in the form of councils, small councils, assemblies, and general assemblies. Some rulings are documented and public, many are undocumented and secret. Bilateral or duplicitous.--Per earlier posts, the political nature of the reformation enacted all sorts of 'precedences' that allowed future generations to get away with murder, frankly.

For Reformed groups, many are multi-creedal (WCF + Dort + Heidelberg + Belgic), broadening tolerance and lowering elitism. For better or worse.

The essence is that Calvinism is rotten from within, not because it is a complete lie, but because the inconsistencies within the school of thought makes it a hypocrisy and a lie.--Christ is Torah (logos, word, nomos, law, mitzvah, commandment), thus rejection of Torah is anti-Christ.

"Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. ... Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye." (Mk 7:9, 13)

Yet tradition of men (oral or written) is mentioned positively when it is biblical and apostolic. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thes 2:15)

About individualism: Firstly it is a selfish and narcissistic worldview, immature. Secondly, although thinking in individualistic/personal terms is popular in the Western world and a 'personal belief' or 'personal relationship' with God is true, Scripture however speaks often in collective terms and promises or blessings are in such terms, i.e. covenantalism. Other cultures, Easterners, Eastern Europeans, Middle Easterners, Asians, Far-East Asians, Islanders and American Indians, think in collective or tribal terms. Everything is done for the family, for the tribe, the clan, the country, where division is shunned. Both are necessary, individual faith but also collective faith. Something that can be taught to children, relatives, community at large, and bring them all equally to Christ.

Individual: "By faith Abraham (Ur/Babylon/Chaldee)... Isaac... Jacob... Joseph... Moses... Egypt... Jericho... Rahab" (Heb 11)
Family: "Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD" (Ps 127:3)
Kingdoms of the world: "Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me" (Chron 2 36:23)
Kingdoms of Christ: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." (Dan 2:44)

Also, although Americanism is normal to Americans much of the world loathes Americanisms. It's seen as insanity. Going back to WHY was there a revolution, war against Britain, back to Henry VIII and his rebellion against Rome, and the Protestant Reformation's destruction of 'catholicism' along with 'Roman Catholicism', to the Crusades against Jerusalem and anti-semitism throughout Europe, to Rome splitting into East and West, and back to Israel and Judah's (and all nations') rebellions against God, and back to Eden.

IOW, 'denominationalism' is in truth 'faithlessness', the opposite of 'waiting on the Lord' or loving patience per 1 Cor 13.

At the congregation level: Decorum or minyan (count/number) dictates that for a "gathering" to be a legitimate formal "assembly" it requires a minimum of 10 men. Same for synagogue or ecclesia. All formal decisions/judgements/councils must have 10 men. Akin to what God required in order for the salvation of Soddom in Gen 18.-- A reminder to think outwardly, prayers and deeds for others, the country, the world, because "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." (Ps 24:1) But denominationalism is schism, and schism sparks enmity.

IMO, Christ possibly reduced decorum that "when 2 or more gather in my name" (Mt 18:20). As his Melchizedekian priesthood predates the Levitical and Aaronic, pointing back to Adam and Eve as the first couple/family also predates the concept of 'kingdoms' and 'nations'. Also indicating 'gender equality' and 'rank in heaven' as there is "no marriage".

Again, as Christ "read at the synagogue" every sabbath along with his persecutors and executors to be (pharisaic school of hillel vs shammai, sadducee school, high priesthood, also the 'meek and humble'), almost every Israelite/Jew internationally unites in the same way to read the very same passage (parashah or Scripture portion) at the very same moment in time since Moses, per God's calendar. Not a letter is written or pronounced wrong. Protestantism* then is literally 'out of sync' and schismatic.

[Edit] *Christendom

Blessings to all

philadelphos · Sep 6, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
the atonement is limited to the elect of those chosen before the foundation of the world and the rest are chosen/elect to eternal damnation. it has nothing to do with receiving anything since neither the elect or damned have any choice to come or not. they were either predestined to come to Christ or be damned eternally.

Receivedgrace said:
That is where the modern Calvinist deviates from the bible. A lack of understanding of election and predestination.
The bible is replete with accounts of men choosing between obeying God and others turning away from God.

"Choices" are circumstantial, dependent on generation and period in history/prophecy.

The Reformers saw 'choice' as 'allegiance' to the school of Augustine/Luther/Calvin, or else. It was less an 'evangelical' voluntary decision to accept and follow Christ. The majority of Europe was already under Christendom fear of God and veneration for Christ was already there, albeit highly superstitiously and intermingled with hundreds of pagan concepts. By 1650 Cromwell had a military dictatorship of England after dismissing parliament by force.

Choice to 'believe' within Israel is similar to the Gentile experience.

For Abraham it would have been obvious that Chaldean/Babylonian idols were false and that their culture was degenerate. He whole-heartedly believed hence he left and went out on his own. But fast forward to the Classical Antiquity era in the 8th century, King Ahaz reverted back to Chaldean/Canaanite idolatry, worship of Molech, child sacrifice/offering, false god idols, false temples, false priesthood, and archaeologists have found traces of THC in the incense altars: narcotic induced worship. Against the original reason God brought them into the Promised Land, as divine judgement amongst other purposes. Then King Hezekiah destroyed all this and reformed Israel, restoring God's blessing. Rinse and repeat.

In current biblical history, Israelites and Jews have been expatriating back to Israel from all over the world, some from the Lost Tribes: in India, China, Africa. But in order to do so they must forfeit "Christianity" (belief in Christ) to meet the requirements of the Law of Return. Many are conflicted as they are considered "Messianic Jews" in that believe in Christ. e.g. from Thomas arrived at India in 52 AD from Palestine by boat, likely for synagogues that were already there. Just as the other Apostles 'went to the edges of the earth' to Asia Minor, Turkey, North Africa, etc, where synagogues were. Truly these places are "light of the world." (Mt 5:14) as glowing evidence of God's salvation from bondage.

Timeline documentary, The Lost Tribes:

The rest of us however are born in darkness, like Ruth into incestuous and idolatrous Moabite culture. Unless we truly love God in keeping his commandments, our very best ideas are rooted in ancient paganism.

e.g. Babylonian chronology, "60 seconds" and "60 degrees", is used for practical reasons, for maths, economics, and astrological purposes (physics, etc). But God's measurement system detailed in Scripture is specific to his purpose, for ordering his kingdom: sabbath, shmita, jubilee, for "rest" and "liberation". Tabernacle, holy of holies, ark/throne vs abyss/chaos. For "righteosness/truth/uprightness".

"Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart." (Ps 15:1-2)

This is how works manifests via faith, or 'belief'. People don't understand 'faith' because they don't understand God, hence seemingly 'good works' end up proven to be evil and disastrous for families and communities.

Joseph was 'chosen' to administer grain during Middle Eastern famine, and although Egypt appeared wealthy God rejected and condemned Egypt and Babylon, at least in that era. Belief in Torah, God, and Christ works the same, it functions miraculously by God's design at his time, not man's.--That is why Calvinism (and all 'systems' of manmade theology) are doomed.

About 'fruit', fruit are godly works but also people, proven by the 'first fruit' counted in Acts during omer to be "some three thousand" (Acts 2:41) of foreigners/gentiles converted in Jerusalem at the time of God's Festival of Firstfruit.

Fast forward to the modern era:

Germany was the heartland of the Reformation but come Hitler their 'fruit' was evidenced. Most Protestants were members of the Landeskirchen (the German Evangelical Church) with 40 million members, which sounds like a blessing but almost all of them followed Hitler, failing to correct him as Hitler was applying Luther's antisemitic doctrines. Almost every church and minister worked for Hitler, fully supporting Holocaust policies, directly or indirectly reporting and deporting Jews into concentration camps, nasty violent behaviour, burning synagogues, also executing various foreigners and political outcasts.

Quote:

Historically the German Evangelical Church viewed itself as one of the pillars of German culture and society, with a theologically grounded tradition of loyalty to the state. During the 1920s, a movement emerged within the German Evangelical Church called the Deutsche Christen, or "German Christians." The "German Christians" embraced many of the nationalistic and racial aspects of Nazi ideology. Once the Nazis came to power, this group sought the creation of a national "Reich Church" and supported a "nazified" version of Christianity. ... (versus) The Bekennende Kirche—the "Confessing Church"—emerged in opposition to the “German Christians.” Its founding document, the Barmen Confession of Faith, declared that the church's allegiance was to God and scripture, not a worldly Führer. (The German Churches and the Nazi State)

Luther said: "If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elde, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words 'I baptize thee in the name of Abraham'"

Calvin said: "Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiff-neckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.”

See Christopher H. K. Persaud, p76 onwards, The Reformation Period: Martin Luther & the Doctrine of Replacement Theology...

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man" (Rom 1:22-23)

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

Guojing said:
So that is what you are believing in, then you have to agree that John 3:16, together with John 20:31, cannot be the gospel that saves today.

No, lol, because we have to keep in mind that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed during Christ's ministry.

He said:

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This was to fulfill the aspects of Messianic Prophecy that were exclusive to Israel.

That does not negate, or, merge and blend, or, create two separate Gospels, one for JEws, and one for Gentiles:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

When Jesus sent out the disciples to preach the Kingdom Gospel He wasn't sending them out to preach another Gospel, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ veiled in Mystery:

Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

There is among the Promises of God that which pertains specifically to Israel. The primary issue is the promised Restoration of Israel. In the Millennial Kingdom Gentiles do not become members of Israel, and Israel does not become Gentile, though both will be in Christ. Their heritage is distinct and they will be Israel in the Kingdom.

John 3:16 is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you have still not shown how your statement that it doesn't say believe only is accurate. You will never be able to show that, because that is precisely what it states, and this is a direct statement of Christ in my view.

John 20:31...

John 20:31
King James Version

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

...states the same thing, so I am not sure why you would say...

Guojing said:
So that is what you are believing in, then you have to agree that John 3:16, together with John 20:31, cannot be the gospel that saves today.

There is only one Gospel, and while there is several key elements of the Gospel (i.e., Christ's DEity, His vicarious Death, His Resurrection, His return to Heaven, His return to indwell men), the bottom line is believing in Him.

That is the only "condition," and this condition is a result of God's ministry (the Comforter), not a result of men.

Belief in Christ is only possible by the Ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7-9). Faith in Christ is the result of the belief, the understanding and embracing of truth God generates through His ministry in our hearts.

But the revelation of truth is progressive and this is especially true of the Gospel of Christ. Abraham had more revelation than Adam. Isaiah had more revelation than Abraham. Peter had more revelation than Isaiah.

But all of them were lacking the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel until Pentecost.

It is the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which began this New Age we are now in, the Church Age, if you will. The disciples were not Christians (in Christ) until they were baptized into Christ. This is the moment they were Eternally Redeemed (Acts 11:13-18).

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

Guojing said:
John 3:16 says Israel must believe in the identity of Jesus, that he is the Son of God (John 20:31).

No, it says the world must believe in Jesus Christ.

Period.

Guojing said:
It says nothing about Israel needing to believe that Christ died and rose again on the 3rd day.

Actually, Christ does teach that:

John 3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Christ states men must believe in Him, and He answers the question of how men can be born again by saying He must die. That is what being lifted up means. The brazen serpent was "lifted up" and when men looked at it they were delivered from death.

When men look to the Cross they are delivered from more than just physical death, they are delivered from the death (separation from God) they were born into.

And whosoever believes will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Where is there more men must do that you keep speaking about?

Continued...

Mark Quayle · Sep 6, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
the atonement is limited to the elect of those chosen before the foundation of the world and the rest are chosen/elect to eternal damnation. it has nothing to do with receiving anything since neither the elect or damned have any choice to come or not. they were either predestined to come to Christ or be damned eternally.

I'm really unsure if you believe what you say here, or if you are trying to prove what is wrong with Calvinism. From other things you have said, I'm thinking you must mean to criticize Calvinism here, but if so, your representation of Calvinism is mistaken. The Elect and Damned most certainly DO have a choice whether to come or not. The fact that their choices are predetermined does not negate that they are indeed real choices.

Both the elect and the reprobate always choose not to come, choosing according to their inclination, until God changes the heart (and thus the inclination) —something that God does to the elect only.

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

Guojing said:
Scripture is clear that Peter, for example, believe in the former but not the latter, during Jesus's earthly ministry, the key verses are found in Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

That Jesus was the Christ (the prophesied Messiah) was revealed to them by divine revelation.

We don't make the fact that understanding of Christ's Ministry to the world wasn't yet being revealed mean he did not have to believe the Gospel.

Peter preached the Gospel of Christ from Day One:

Acts 2
King James Version

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Peter preaches the death and Resurrection of Christ.

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

What "all the House of Israel" needed to know was that Jesus was both Lord (The Son of God) and Christ (the One prophesied to come for the purpose of the Redemption of Israel).

What they "saw and heard" was the receiving of the Holy Ghost, for which Simon is later rebuked because he thought he could "buy this power" with money.

Acts 8:20-25
King James Version

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

There is only one Gospel of Christ for the world, and Israel is a part of that world that God loved so much that He sent His Son.

And the only think men are called to do is believe in Christ.

Trying to create two gospels and two groups of redeemed cannot be supported by Scripture.

Guojing said:
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

It's no longer a mystery that Peter rejected the Gospel of Christ preached by Christ Himself because the Mystery of the Gospel was not being revealed.

God did reveal to some that Jesus was in fact the Christ, but He withheld understanding of the Gospel until Pentecost.

Are you Mid-Acts Dispensational?

God bless.

Jesus is YHWH · Sep 6, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
I'm really unsure if you believe what you say here, or if you are trying to prove what is wrong with Calvinism. From other things you have said, I'm thinking you must mean to criticize Calvinism here, but if so, your representation of Calvinism is mistaken. The Elect and Damned most certainly DO have a choice whether to come or not. The fact that their choices are predetermined does not negate that they are indeed real choices.

Both the elect and the reprobate always choose not to come, choosing according to their inclination, until God changes the heart (and thus the inclination) —something that God does to the elect only.

Yes I'm completely against the doctrine of double predestination by calvin. Even he said it was horrific. Would you like me to quote him ?

P1LGR1M · Sep 6, 2022

Guojing said:
I already did in my other reply to you here What is wrong with Calvinism ?

There is nothing in your response that shows anything but believing in John 3:16.

And I responded to your address of my comments:

P1LGR1M said:
And on this we still disagree: believing in Christ is the only thing one must do in order to be saved in an eternal context.

Because Salvation is a result of the Work of Christ, not the work of men, and not the Work of Christ plus the work of men:

John 3:9-16
King James Version

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Nicodemus asks the question "How can these things be." This is asking, "How can man be born again (from above, born of God)?"

Christ's answer: The Son of Man must be lifted up.

Entrance to the Kingdom of God is by being born of God. While it is assumed by some that because Christ states men must be born again that means it could happen at that time (and before) we have to remember that no man could "believe" in Jesus Christ as the Risen Savior because the Gospel still remained a Mystery.

Christ taught men must believe in Him, and just as being born again was not possible yet, even so the very belief in Christ necessary for Eternal Redemption was not available yet.

So Christ's teaching is very clear: one can only be born again (thus enter into the Kingdom Christ came to establish through His vicarious death) through the Sacrifice of Christ (v.14) and belief in Jesus Christ.

Christ did the dying, we do the believing.

And believing became possible through the Ministry of the Comforter (John 16:7-9; Ephesians 3:4-5; 1 Peter 1:12).

Paul also reiterates this Basic Gospel Principle:

Acts 16:29-31
King James Version

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Eternal Redemption is achieved by Christ alone:

Hebrews 9:12
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

God enlightens the natural mind to the spiritual truth of the Gospel by the Spirit, man merely acknowledges this truth in belief and he is saved. Being born of God, born from above, and born again is a result of Christ's Work (John 3:14; 1 Peter 1:3), not man's.

If I take a bucket of ice-water and throw it on an unsuspecting person on a hot day there is a response to what I have done. So too, when the Comforter enlightens the natural mind there is a response. Many will reject this enlightenment, but some will believe and recognize their condition and the judgment that they are faced with.

The fear of this judgment is a healthy fear.

P1LGR1M said:
It is a direct statement to the Mystery of Christ.

God's promise to Abraham was the veiled Gospel, and we can understand, unlike Abraham, why Abraham's Seed would bless all families of the earth.

So too, Christ's teaching during His earthly ministry is still speaking of the Gospel Mystery.

Perhaps I am not understanding (again, lol) what it is you are trying to say.

P1LGR1M said:
Christ was made under the Law and ministered within the Law during His earthly ministry, and was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel.

When Jesus spoke of "doing truth..."

John 3:18-21
King James Version

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

...He is still calling men to believe in Him.

The "Light" is Himself, and that is what men are called to come to. The truth.

But men are condemned because they do not believe in the Name of the only-begotten Son, not because of general evil.

The Law was meant to lead men to the conclusion they were in need of a Savior, not meant to create a works-based salvation they could accomplish themselves.

Galatians 2:21
King James Version

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

P1LGR1M said:
This is a general truth: God will judge all men, and their words and deeds will be judged.

That doesn't change the simple statement of John 3:14-16:

John 3:14-16
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The only thing required is that men believe in Jesus Christ. That's it. That is why Christ came, to die in the stead of the sinner that the sinner might, through belief in the Name of Jesus Christ—remain no longer in condemnation.

And we see the same thing in John 5:

John 5:21-24
King James Version

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

How do we honor the Father?

John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So what else must men do in order to have Eternal Life?

God bless.

You have shown nothing that shows Jesus requires more than believing to be born again.

I guess viewing John 3:16 as "commentary of John" somehow discounts that Christ stated that whosoever believes will not perish but have everlasting life? John said it, so it doesn't count?

Post the verse and show where there is more required than believing in Christ, that's all you have to do.

God bless.

Guojing · Sep 6, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
There is nothing in your response that shows anything but believing in John 3:16.

And I responded to your address of my comments:

God bless.

That is not what John 3:16 meant. This is why Jesus spoke of Israel “doing truth” so that their “deeds may be made manifest” (John 3:21), and two chapters later speaks about their resurrection being contingent on what “they have done” (John 5:29).

Furthermore, if John 3:16, as you believe, is John commenting about believing and nothing else, he would be contradicting himself in 1 John when he wrote

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

At the end of the day, if you are determined to make John 3:16 only about believing, nothing anyone say about scripture will change your mind.

Guojing · Sep 6, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
That Jesus was the Christ (the prophesied Messiah) was revealed to them by divine revelation.

Peter preached the Gospel of Christ from Day One:

Do you mean to say the gospel of the kingdom instead?

Your Day 1 did not start from Acts 2. In Luke 9:6, we read

And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

What is the content of this gospel they were preaching in Luke 9?

Mark Quayle · Sep 6, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
Yes I'm completely against the doctrine of double predestination by calvin. Even he said it was horrific. Would you like me to quote him ?

It's horrific, no doubt. But it is logical. The problem I have with it is the view people have of it. God did not create the reprobate primarily for the purpose of condemnation, but (rather obviously, it seems to me, since we know he is love, and since he says such in Romans 9) for the purpose of showing his glory, power, justice and loving mercy to the elect. "Double Predestination" is only the logic, and reliable enough, but not the whole story any more than OSAS is the whole story.

Why believers insist on treating it as if it was a doctrine only as bare bones is beyond me.

John Mullally · Sep 7, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
It's horrific, no doubt. But it is logical. The problem I have with it is the view people have of it. God did not create the reprobate primarily for the purpose of condemnation, but (rather obviously, it seems to me, since we know he is love, and since he says such in Romans 9) for the purpose of showing his glory, power, justice and loving mercy to the elect. "Double Predestination" is only the logic, and reliable enough, but not the whole story any more than OSAS is the whole story. Why believers insist on treating it as if it was a doctrine only as bare bones is beyond me.

You did not quote Calvin on that particular topic - but I did so much earlier on this thread, Notice: I am not going to spend the time to find it now!

Much of Calvinism does not line up with 1 Timothy 2:4 which declares God desires all to be saved - so how does God, who is declared as being love in 1 John 4:16, traffic in predesting any to reprobation - truly a mystery (i.e not scriptural). Leading Calvinists, John MacArthur and John Piper, agree with the plain reading of 1 Timothy 2:4 - as it is plain. Yet, MacArthur and Piper assert that God loves some (i.e. future elect) more than others - so only the predestined to do so will be saved! At some point, one has to recognize the numerous red flags and turn away!

Pielun123 · Sep 7, 2022

RickReads said:
I urge you to review the previous 149 pages. Lotta great stuff to read I tell ya.

What's wrong with Calvanisim is that it's incomplete by itself. Likewise, what's wrong with Arminianism is that it's incomplete by itself.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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