What is wrong with Calvinism ?

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

zoidar said:
I have read most of your posts. What you present is interesting, still I don't see it as part of the gospel to us

Actually, it is the Gospel of Christ itself.

It is not referring to the facts of the Gospel, it is referring to the fact that it was not revealed to men prior to this Age.

A "mystery" is a previously undisclosed truth. I'm not sure I will have time to address the posts between the other members this morning, but I do hope to come back to those once I have time.

zoidar said:
I see the gospel as something very simple.

It is. That doesn't change the fact that the men and women of faith of the Old Testament were not trusting on the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Because it was a mystery, it was not known to them.

It is to you because it is the Comforter, the Spirit of God—that revealed it to you. He did not begin doing that until He came on the Day of Pentecost.

zoidar said:
God sent Jesus to die for our sins and be resurrected for our salvation.

This is true. But read Romans 4 and see what it is that Abraham was believing that is given as the reason why he was declared righteous. He was believing God would give him a son through a woman beyond the age of bearing and that all families of the earth would be blessed through his (Abraham's) offspring. In Galatians 3 Paul points out that The Seed of the Gospel of Christ was singular, indicating there was an understanding among men it was plural (meaning Israel nor multiple offspring was not the means of blessing).

To complicate matters, lol, I will introduce another concept few consider: Abraham's "justification" was temporal, not eternal. Romans 4 speaks of Abraham's temporal justification (through belief in the veiled Gospel of Christ) and Romans 3 speaks of Eternal Justification through Jesus Christ (and specifically His death).

zoidar said:
Repent and believe and you will be saved.

Repentance is a result of the ministry of the Comforter, even as belief and faith are. It is not until God reveals the truth of the Gospel to men (who are blind to it in their natural state) that they can believe the Gospel. Conviction of sin (that we are sinners), righteousness (that only Christ is righteous), and judgment (that there awaits us judgment for our sin) created by the Comforter's ministry results in our realizing the truth of our condition (lost, in a state of death and destruction) and the only remedy for that condition.

zoidar said:
What if the Jews before Christ''s death on the cross, weren't born again, interesting yes, but what difference does it make for my reception of Jesus as my savior?

It makes a huge difference: if you think men were born again prior to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ then you have just—created more than one way for men to be saved (and I speak in general terms, I am not saying you are doing that).

If Abraham's "righteousness" which was based on belief in something other than the Cross and Resurrection of Christ eternally redeemed him, then it is not necessary to believe the Gospel in order to be eternally redeemed.

See the problem there?

But what saith the Scripture? That Eternal Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.

That is the magnitude of the Cross, and it is not something that took place in the Old Testament. They were "saved" from an eternal perspective, but it is not until Christ comes, dies, rises again, returns to Heaven, and sends the Holy Ghost in the ministry of Comforter that men will begin to believe in His Name according to the Gospel.

That is why disciples that went back to fishing for fish begin on the Day of Pentecost to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter denied the Gospel as a disciple (Matthew 16:20-23) but preached the Gospel as an Apostle.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

You seem very disappointed that I didn't address your post so I will do so at this time.

Mark Quayle said:
I don't even need to read your whole post to see you want a one-size-fits-all meaning of "mystery". What I meant was, that in this context, the use of mystery was a reference to the fact that the Elect are both Jew and Gentile.

And as I explained before—you would be wrong to do so.

And this, I think, because you are still not grasping what "mystery" means. It is previously unrevealed truth. Paul's statement is hard to read for some which is why most come to the conclusion that the mystery in view is Gentile Inclusion. But keep reading:

Ephesians 3
King James Version

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

First, Paul speaks of two things here: the dispensation given him and his ministry towards Gentiles. In other words, "If you have heard of the dispensation and my ministry to the Gentiles."

The fact that he is ministering the dispensation (which is the ministry of the Mystery of the Gospel) isn't overshadowed by his ministry to the Gentiles.

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Again, it is the ministry of the Mystery that is the focus, not his ministry to the Gentiles. He has already written them about it, hence he states "If ye have heard..."

Again, the focus is the Mystery.

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

"When you do read..." or, hear, then you will understand, not his ministry to the Gentiles, but his ministry of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. It is the mystery he is trying to minister, not knowledge of his ministry to Gentiles.

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Mark this well: The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not made known to the sons of men (which is all-inclusive of all men) but is now made known to His holy apostles and prophets.

And this—by the Spirit of God. Same thing he says in 1 Corinthians 2:8-10 and Peter states in 1 Peter 1:12.

And what matters most in this statement is that the mystery of the Gospel was not made known—to anyone.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

"I was made a minister to the Gentiles because Gentiles are fellow-heirs as well."

This does not make the mystery here to be Gentile Inclusion.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

"The privilege of taking the Mystery to the Gentiles has been given to someone not worthy."

The "unsearchable riches of Christ" is the Mystery of the Gospel. It is similar to his statement in Colossians 1:25-27.

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

"And to make all men see..."

Why? Because...

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

As I said, those who make the mystery Gentile Inclusion imply that Jews knew.

They didn't. No man knew. The Mystery is the Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. It is now revealed by His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit of God, and this correlates to the ministry of the Comforter and the teachings of Christ in John 14-16.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Paul tells us outright what the mystery is that he is referring to, in Ephesians 3:6 "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

I'm sorry, but this is not the intent of Paul's statement.

This statement is inclusive of Gentiles, yes, but keep in mind it is being written to Gentiles, so of course, he would make it a point to show they were included in the revelation of the mystery.

But the mystery is the Gospel of Jesus Christ itself, and the primary point is that the mystery was not revealed to anyone.

That is what you are overlooking.

Mark Quayle said:
What's more, you somehow conflate 'mystery' with 'gospel'. There is 'mystery of the gospel', of course, but they are not one and the same thing.

I conflate "mystery" with the Gospel?

How can you do that when the mystery is the Gospel?

Mark Quayle said:
Further, you make the illogical claim, "If that were true then it would mean that Jews, and only Jews understood the Gospel". That does not logically follow, but only that the Jews would have their particular viewpoint concerning the Gospel.

Let me explain the logic: if the mystery is Gentile Inclusion, then this means that Jews were already privy to the Gospel, and now Gentiles are having the Gospel revealed to them.

Understand?

Mark Quayle said:
Then you say, "Secondly, we have to make obsolete the "gentiles" prior to the establishment of the Nation of Israel. Noah. Abraham. Isaac. Jacob. "Gentile" in the sense they were not of Israel." I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Of course there was no Israel before Jacob; so what? Who is it that is making obsolete the 'gentiles', and what do you mean by that anyway? I'm not going to play "Guess What The Hint Means". I'm not married anymore Try saying plainly what you are getting at.

A "Gentile" is someone who is not a Jew. "Jews" are members of Israel (and the term Jew a later designation, after the division of the kingdom between the North and the Southern kingdoms).

Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not of Israel, nor Jews, hence they can be considered "Gentile."

So if the mystery in Ephesians 3 is Gentile Inclusion, this suggests that it is only within the time-frame of Israel being created and the writing of this letter that the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was known.

Understand?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Then you say, "And this is a new man, not something added to, not something renovated". Did I say anything against that? Or are you, like my departed wife, reading things into what I said that I had not meant to imply, to which imagined implication I had not even made you find it necessary to correct?

I simply made a point, no need to take it personal. Rather than doing that, how about addressing the point and the Scripture provided to support the point.

That is the point of a doctrinal discussion and debate forum, after all.

Mark Quayle said:
I didn't say I didn't bother to read your post. I said I didn't need to.

Actually, you need to reread it again and try to address the points made. I read posts no less than three times before I respond to them.

Mark Quayle said:
The subsequent things I said should have shown you I read your whole post.

They didn't.

They simply showed you were not understanding what was said, and I appreciate you admitting that.

Mark Quayle said:
Have a blessed day.

Hey, thanks! You too!

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
No doubt. I didn't dispute what 'mystery' is, but to show in that one context, Paul is saying outright, per 3:6, "This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus."

@P1LGR1M wanted to take issue with that.

I still take issue with it, lol.

And the primary point I would make in that passage is that Paul is making clear that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not made known to anyone, but is "now" being revealed by the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:5
King James Version

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Romans 16:25-26
King James Version

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:7-10
King James Version

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

If you could just step back for a minute and consider the ramifications of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the only means of Eternal Redemption) not being revealed to men in past ages it may be that you will see the magnitude of the Cross.

God bless.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I take quite a different view of Adam's relationship than most, and this because
I understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ,

Do you understand that "mystery" (musterion) in the NT does not mean mysterious, as with the English word, but simply that which cannot be known except by divine revelation; i.e., not known before, but now revealed, as in "which has been hid from all ages and generations: but now has it been manifested to the saints" (Colossians 1:26).

and understand that Adam did not "die spiritually" in the Fall.

Genesis 2:17 and John 3:3 disagree:
"Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically)." (Genesis 2:17)
And "born again" (John 3:3) is from that spiritual death into eternal life.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I still take issue with it, lol.

And the primary point I would make in that passage is that Paul is making clear that
the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not made known to anyone,

Galatians 3:8 disagrees.
The gospel was preached in advance to Abraham, in the Abrahamic covenant which contained the gospel of grace.

John Mullally · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Ephesians 3
King James Version

Another excellent presentation.

I agree that the mystery of Christ was first revealed on a mass scale in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit was first poured out on the Church (existing disciples and new converts). In Acts 2:38-39, for the first time we see the promise of salvation (remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) extended to those who repent in response to the preaching of the Gospel. The powerful convicting power of the Holy Spirit, per John 16:8, leads but does not force. God will not do what He commands from man - in this case repentance.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

One can also say that that the Gentiles becoming fellow heirs (refer to Acts 10-15) can also be seen as another facet of the mystery of Christ.

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

Clare73 said:
Do you understand that "mystery" (musterion) in the NT does not mean mysterious, as with the English word, but simply that which cannot be known except by divine revelation; i.e., not known before, but now revealed, as in "which has been hid from all ages and generations: but now has it been manifested to the saints" (Colossians 1:26).

Not only do I understand what mystery means in Scripture, I understand what the mysteries actually are.

It is pretty obvious you do not.

Nor are you able to place the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ in the broader context of Scripture.

I have shown in Matthew 16:13-17 that the knowledge that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God was divinely revealed to the disciples by the Father, but that this did not equate to the disciples having the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ revealed to them (at least I think that was in this thread).

I also showed that Peter rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ—delivered to him by none other than Jesus Christ Himself—in Matthew 16:20:23.

So I am not sure why exactly you cannot comprehend what it is I have been saying. Nor why you would reiterate something to me that I have mentioned numerous times already in this thread.

Now you tell me, and be honest, exactly how much study concerning the mysteries of the New Testament revelation have you done? Before I brought it up, when was the last time the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ even crossed your mind?

Be honest.

Clare73 said:
Genesis 2:17 and John 3:3 disagree:
"Dying (spiritually), you shall die (physically). (Genesis 2:17)
And "born again" (John 3:3) is from that spiritual death into eternal life.

Genesis 2:17 and John 3:3 disagree? Surely that is a typo...

And you have to add "spiritually." The fact is that Adam was created a dichotomy, his body, and the breath of life (spirit). If Adam died "spiritually" he would have ceased to exist.

Genesis 3 makes it clear what Adam's source for everlasting life was, the Tree of Life. The idea Adam had "eternal life" and then lost it is a contradiction in itself: if he lost it—it wasn't exactly "eternal life" then, was it?

Secondly, when Nicodemus asks how men can be born again (from above, meaning the same as "Born of God"), born of water and of the Spirit, Christ's answer is pretty clear:

John 3:14
King James Version

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That men might have Eternal Life is the very reason the Son of God came in the first place:

John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Quoted more than possibly any other verse yet the import missed by most.

One has to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be born again, and because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was Mystery unrevealed to past ages and generations to the sons of men (all inclusive of mankind) it is impossible that men were born again prior to Pentecost.

Regeneration was not possible prior to the Incarnation:

John 1:11-13
King James Version

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There is a point in time when Eternal God took up residence in the flesh of a man and died to make atonement for the sins of those who would believe in Him, and it is at that time men became the sons of God in eternal union with God:

Galatians 4:4-6
King James Version

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Yes, I understand what mystery is, and I understand how to place the mysteries in a proper context. I do not insert into Scripture what is not there, nor do I insert events from one Age into another.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

Clare73 said:
Galatians 3:8 disagrees.
The gospel was preached in advance to Abraham, in the Abrahamic covenant which contained the gospel of grace.

If you were paying attention you would have seen I have already addressed that: Read it again and you will see what it was that was revealed to Abraham:

Galatians 3:8
King James Version

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Now read Genesis 12 and 15 and see again that the Gospel was veiled to Abraham, and that it was the promise of a son from a woman beyond bearing that Abraham received.

Is that the Gospel? Yes, but while you and I, who have had the Gospel revealed to us by the Comforter, understand why it is the Gospel, Abraham did not.

Because it was yet mystery. It was unrevealed truth that would not be revealed until the COmforter came.

We see the same thing in Romans 4:

Romans 4:16-22
King James Version

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Abraham was temporally justified (which had eternal consequences as well, but should not be confused with Eternal Redemption one can only receive through Christ) for believing, not that Jesus Christ died and arose again, but for the reasons listed above (as well as in Galatians 3).

Just give it some thought, that's all I ask.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 17, 2022

John Mullally said:
Another excellent presentation.

I agree that the mystery of Christ was first revealed on a mass scale in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit was first poured out on the Church (existing disciples and new converts). In Acts 2:38-39, for the first time we see the promise of salvation (remission of sins and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit) extended to those who repent in response to the preaching of the Gospel. The powerful convicting power of the Holy Spirit, per John 16:8, leads but does not force. God will not do what He commands from man - in this case repentance.

One can also say that that the Gentiles becoming fellow heirs (refer to Acts 10-15) can also be seen as another facet of the mystery of Christ.

A lot of very notable Theologians take that position, however, due to the fact that Gentile Inclusion is implicit in God's Plan of Salvation (because God has always dealt with mankind as a whole and this is how the first occurrence of the Gospel reads (Genesis 3:15) and that Gentile Inclusion is well documented in the Old Testament I hate to see Ephesians 3 overshadowed by Gentile Inclusion.

But it's a difficult passage to read, really.

Understanding of any man is denied by Paul, and it is just my opinion that because a Gentile Inclusion context is understood it confuses some people in regards to the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ altogether.

That men would be baptized into Christ and become "one" with Him far exceeds the separation between Jew and Gentile. It steps into that which is, in a sense, still mysterious to us—eternal union with God Himself.

Hey, I appreciate the encouraging words, John. Have to get going, but have a blessed day!

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Not only do I understand what mystery means in Scripture,
I understand what the mysteries actually are.

It is pretty obvious you do not.

I understand what the NT teaches the mysteries are; e.g. the incarnation (1 Timothy 3:16), death of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:1), God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1:9), change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:51), plan by which both a remnant of Jews (Romans 11:5) and Gentiles (Romans 11:25) will be included in his kingdom.

Genesis 2:17 and John 3:3 disagree? Surely that is a typo...

They disagree. . .with you.

Clare73 · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
If you were paying attention you would have seen I have already addressed that: Read it again and you will see what it was that was revealed to Abraham:

We are in agreement that the gospel was preached to Abraham.

QvQ · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
God ministers to the hearts of men, men believe, and faith is the observable aspect of their belief.

Agree, however, Faith is the work of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, not the work of man.

I would avoid "eternal union" as we do not meld or become one with god.
It is com-union, "together or with" God.

Adam was without God. Through Christ's Resurrection, redemption and baptism by the Holy Spirit, God is with us. That is Faith.
Faith is beautifully expressed in the 23rd Psalm.

Receivedgrace · Aug 17, 2022

QvQ said:
Agree, however, Faith is the work of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, not the work of man.

I would avoid "eternal union" as we do not meld or become one with god.
It is com-union, "together or with" God.

Adam was without God. Through Christ's Resurrection, redemption and baptism by the Holy Spirit, God is with us. That is Faith.
Faith is beautifully expressed in the 23rd Psalm.

Hebrews 11 has something to say regarding faith.

zoidar · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Actually, it is the Gospel of Christ itself.

It is not referring to the facts of the Gospel, it is referring to the fact that it was not revealed to men prior to this Age.

A "mystery" is a previously undisclosed truth. I'm not sure I will have time to address the posts between the other members this morning, but I do hope to come back to those once I have time.

It is. That doesn't change the fact that the men and women of faith of the Old Testament were not trusting on the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Because it was a mystery, it was not known to them.

It is to you because it is the Comforter, the Spirit of God—that revealed it to you. He did not begin doing that until He came on the Day of Pentecost.

This is true. But read Romans 4 and see what it is that Abraham was believing that is given as the reason why he was declared righteous. He was believing God would give him a son through a woman beyond the age of bearing and that all families of the earth would be blessed through his (Abraham's) offspring. In Galatians 3 Paul points out that The Seed of the Gospel of Christ was singular, indicating there was an understanding among men it was plural (meaning Israel nor multiple offspring was not the means of blessing).

To complicate matters, lol, I will introduce another concept few consider: Abraham's "justification" was temporal, not eternal. Romans 4 speaks of Abraham's temporal justification (through belief in the veiled Gospel of Christ) and Romans 3 speaks of Eternal Justification through Jesus Christ (and specifically His death).

Repentance is a result of the ministry of the Comforter, even as belief and faith are. It is not until God reveals the truth of the Gospel to men (who are blind to it in their natural state) that they can believe the Gospel. Conviction of sin (that we are sinners), righteousness (that only Christ is righteous), and judgment (that there awaits us judgment for our sin) created by the Comforter's ministry results in our realizing the truth of our condition (lost, in a state of death and destruction) and the only remedy for that condition.

It makes a huge difference: if you think men were born again prior to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ then you have just—created more than one way for men to be saved (and I speak in general terms, I am not saying you are doing that).

If Abraham's "righteousness" which was based on belief in something other than the Cross and Resurrection of Christ eternally redeemed him, then it is not necessary to believe the Gospel in order to be eternally redeemed.

See the problem there?

But what saith the Scripture? That Eternal Salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.

That is the magnitude of the Cross, and it is not something that took place in the Old Testament. They were "saved" from an eternal perspective, but it is not until Christ comes, dies, rises again, returns to Heaven, and sends the Holy Ghost in the ministry of Comforter that men will begin to believe in His Name according to the Gospel.

That is why disciples that went back to fishing for fish begin on the Day of Pentecost to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter denied the Gospel as a disciple (Matthew 16:20-23) but preached the Gospel as an Apostle.

God bless.

That Abraham was credited as righteous because he believed God, doesn't mean from my view that he was born again. It was of the old covenant that was a shadow of the new covenant. Abraham still needed the sacrifice of Christ to be eternally saved. In the new covenant the promise to Abraham is fulfilled so there is no shadow covenant to rely on since the sacrifice of Christ is accomplished. Therefore today the only way to be righteous is through Christ. That's my view.

Mark Quayle · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
You seem very disappointed that I didn't address your post so I will do so at this time.

And as I explained before—you would be wrong to do so.

And this, I think, because you are still not grasping what "mystery" means. It is previously unrevealed truth. Paul's statement is hard to read for some which is why most come to the conclusion that the mystery in view is Gentile Inclusion. But keep reading:

Ephesians 3
King James Version

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

First, Paul speaks of two things here: the dispensation given him and his ministry towards Gentiles. In other words, "If you have heard of the dispensation and my ministry to the Gentiles."

The fact that he is ministering the dispensation (which is the ministry of the Mystery of the Gospel) isn't overshadowed by his ministry to the Gentiles.

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Again, it is the ministry of the Mystery that is the focus, not his ministry to the Gentiles. He has already written them about it, hence he states "If ye have heard..."

Again, the focus is the Mystery.

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

"When you do read..." or, hear, then you will understand, not his ministry to the Gentiles, but his ministry of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. It is the mystery he is trying to minister, not knowledge of his ministry to Gentiles.

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Mark this well: The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not made known to the sons of men (which is all-inclusive of all men) but is now made known to His holy apostles and prophets.

And this—by the Spirit of God. Same thing he says in 1 Corinthians 2:8-10 and Peter states in 1 Peter 1:12.

And what matters most in this statement is that the mystery of the Gospel was not made known—to anyone.

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

"I was made a minister to the Gentiles because Gentiles are fellow-heirs as well."

This does not make the mystery here to be Gentile Inclusion.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

"The privilege of taking the Mystery to the Gentiles has been given to someone not worthy."

The "unsearchable riches of Christ" is the Mystery of the Gospel. It is similar to his statement in Colossians 1:25-27.

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

"And to make all men see..."

Why? Because...

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

As I said, those who make the mystery Gentile Inclusion imply that Jews knew.

They didn't. No man knew. The Mystery is the Gospel of Jesus Christ itself. It is now revealed by His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit of God, and this correlates to the ministry of the Comforter and the teachings of Christ in John 14-16.

Continued...

You have no idea what my concept of the 'mystery' is. All you know is what I said, quoting Paul. I would be curious how you manage all this you lay out so patiently for me, in light of verse 6, however. So far, all I've seen you do with it is ignore and even deny what it plainly says.

Mark Quayle · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Let me explain the logic: if the mystery is Gentile Inclusion, then this means that Jews were already privy to the Gospel, and now Gentiles are having the Gospel revealed to them.

Understand?

You've only reiterated your original statement. Proved nothing, nor shown how it is logical. Let me reiterate my objection a little more to the point: HOW does this mean that the Jews were already privy to the Gospel? (And no, my question is not implying that they were not, nor that they were.)

P1LGR1M said:
A "Gentile" is someone who is not a Jew. "Jews" are members of Israel (and the term Jew a later designation, after the division of the kingdom between the North and the Southern kingdoms).

Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not of Israel, nor Jews, hence they can be considered "Gentile."

Are you serious?? I hope you don't assume all posters are as ignorant as I am.

P1LGR1M said:
So if the mystery in Ephesians 3 is Gentile Inclusion, this suggests that it is only within the time-frame of Israel being created and the writing of this letter that the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was known.

Understand?

So, in light of your overwhelming evidence of just what exactly the mystery always means and always is, you override Paul's claim in Eph 3:6.

Mark Quayle · Aug 17, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I still take issue with it, lol.

And the primary point I would make in that passage is that Paul is making clear that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not made known to anyone, but is "now" being revealed by the Spirit.

Ephesians 3:5
King James Version

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Romans 16:25-26
King James Version

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:7-10
King James Version

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

It's curious to me how you find it necessary to disagree with me when all I did was to quote Paul. Then you go into all this to convince me of something that apparently you find me ignorant of although you don't know what I think.

P1LGR1M said:
If you could just step back for a minute and consider the ramifications of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (which is the only means of Eternal Redemption) not being revealed to men in past ages it may be that you will see the magnitude of the Cross.

God bless.

None of us sees the magnitude of the cross. There is always more to learn.

QvQ · Aug 17, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Hebrews 11 has something to say regarding faith

Hebrews 11 is faith being the foundation of patience and hope.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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