What is wrong with Calvinism ?

zoidar · Aug 15, 2022

QvQ said:
In English, the five Solas state that Christians are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by Scripture alone, to the glory of God alone.

I believe it is a doctrine common to almost all Protestant denominations but I, being a denomination of one, believe it as self evident truth. So I am not certain who else believes it.

Yeah, but then you need to know exactly what "grace alone" etc. means. I say we are saved by grace alone, then someone else will say: "That's not grace alone!" You get the picture.

Clare73 · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I agree, that the Old Testament Saints were saved, however, the point made is that they were not born again and Eternally Redeemed. That is a promise of God in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:23-27, for example) that is not realized until He establishes the New Covenant.

You make the entire OT written by the unregenerate. That is totally contrary to NT teaching regarding the spiritual impotency of the unregenerate (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8; John 3:3-8).
Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth.
Jesus chided Nicodemus (John 3:11) for not knowing about the new birth (John 3:3, 5); i.e., regeneration. So it wasn't new to the NT.
Just as the OT saints were not punished at death for their sin, in anticipation of Jesus' atonement (Romans 3:25), so the OT saints were born again in anticipation of the new covenant.

But don't take my word for it:
Hebrews 11:13 King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40 King James Version
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This refers to the patriarchs and the land promise of Genesis 15:9-21.

As mentioned earlier, neither had the disciples of Christ received the promise prior to Christ returning to Heaven:
Acts 1:4-5 King James Version
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The promise in view here is defined by Christ Himself as the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We need only look to Christ's teachings to see what He is speaking about.

Previously addressed.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
I don't think the entire OT was penned by the unregenerate.

So you ascribe Holy Scripture to men?

The men were writers, not the Author.

And they were filled with the Spirit of God to present the revelation God gave to them.

So show me one person in the Old Testament being born again. That's all you need to do.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth.

Sorry, no, they actually didn't.

First, let's look at divinely revealed revelation to the disciples:

Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The Father revealed to the disciples that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Born again?

Let's go a little further:

Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

First, ask yourself why the Lord charges His disciples not to tell men what had been revealed to them?

Then ask yourself why it is at this late time in His Ministry that the Lord begins to give a clear Gospel presentation to His disciples:

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

A moment of weakness for Peter? No, it's just a matter that the Gospel of Christ is still a Mystery. It is not being revealed.

Truly God the Father revealed to them Jesus was in fact the long-awaited Messiah and that He was the Son of God, but He did not reveal to them that Christ would die for their sin so that they might receive eternal life.

This is a record of Peter denying the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Unless you want to say that men can be in Christ and have eternal life and reject the Gospel then you are going to have to change your perspective on the disciples (and Old Testament Saints) being regenerate.

Next, let's take a look at another example of the unbelief of the disciples:

John 16:28-32
King James Version

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

If Jesus can question the belief of the disciples I see no problem doing it myself. Especially when being born again is dependent on belief in Jesus Christ Himself and the Comforter is not yet revealing the Gospel Mystery.

Did they have faith in Jesus? Of course, but they did not understand the Gospel.

The Old Testament Saints were justified based on their response to the revelation they received, but they all died not receiving the promises (plural).

Clare73 · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
So you ascribe Holy Scripture to men?

The men were writers, not the Author.

And they were filled with the Spirit of God to present the revelation God gave to them.

So show me one person in the Old Testament being born again. That's all you need to do.

You fail to apprehend NT teaching regarding the nature of the unregenerate (Romans 8:7-8;
1 Corinthians 2:14) if you think they can be unregenerate and filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time, to write such as the Psalms.

That is absurd on its face.

zoidar · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
Sorry, no, they actually didn't.

First, let's look at divinely revealed revelation to the disciples:

Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

The Father revealed to the disciples that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Born again?

Let's go a little further:

Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

First, ask yourself why the Lord charges His disciples not to tell men what had been revealed to them?

Then ask yourself why it is at this late time in His Ministry that the Lord begins to give a clear Gospel presentation to His disciples:

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

A moment of weakness for Peter? No, it's just a matter that the Gospel of Christ is still a Mystery. It is not being revealed.

Truly God the Father revealed to them Jesus was in fact the long-awaited Messiah and that He was the Son of God, but He did not reveal to them that Christ would die for their sin so that they might receive eternal life.

This is a record of Peter denying the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Unless you want to say that men can be in Christ and have eternal life and reject the Gospel then you are going to have to change your perspective on the disciples (and Old Testament Saints) being regenerate.

Next, let's take a look at another example of the unbelief of the disciples:

John 16:28-32
King James Version

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

If Jesus can question the belief of the disciples I see no problem doing it myself. Especially when being born again is dependent on belief in Jesus Christ Himself and the Comforter is not yet revealing the Gospel Mystery.

Did they have faith in Jesus? Of course, but they did not understand the Gospel.

The Old Testament Saints were justified based on their response to the revelation they received, but they all died not receiving the promises (plural).

I don't know how correct you are, but what you say is very interesting. Never thought about it this way before.

How do you reconcile this part with your view?

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
— Matthew 3:11

Jesus was set out from the beginning to baptize in Holy Spirit and fire.

Clare73 · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth.

P1LGR1M said:
Sorry, no, they actually didn't.

Your issue is with Jesus in John 6:47, not with me.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Jesus chided Nicodemus (John 3:11) for not knowing about the new birth (John 3:3, 5); i.e., regeneration. So it wasn't new to the NT.

He chided Nicodemus because Nicodemus, like the disciples—inserted a physical fulfillment to the coming of the Christ.

This is why Peter took up a sword and was willing to physically kill another human being. So that the physical Kingdom that was promised to Israel would not be endangered.

As a teacher and spiritual leader, Nicodemus should have immediately thought of Ezekiel 36:27 and Ezekiel 37, but instead he places Christ's statement into physical terms.

You said:

Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth.

The problem with that is that it is impossible for men and women to believe something that was not yet being revealed. The Gospel was a mystery not revealed in Ages prior to this current Age (Romans 16:25-27; Colossians 1:25-27).

I would also draw your attention to how Christ taught how men would be born again:

John 3
King James Version

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus should have asked, "Are you speaking of the promise of God that He would put His Spirit within us and that He would give life to a dead Israel?" Rather than ask what he did.

Nicodemus does ask one of the most important questions we will find in Scripture, though:

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

In other words—how can a man be born again?

The Lord's response:

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Everlasting life is the result of the Work of Christ.

The New Birth is the result of the Work of Christ.

Christ's answer to Nicodemus' question (v.9) is that He had to die on the Cross so that men could have eternal life.

So I would ask, how exactly did men have eternal life in the Old Testament prior to Christ dying on the Cross?

And how, when we have so many passages that show clearly that men were not believing on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ prior to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel—can men be born again without believing in Jesus Christ?

Clare73 · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
He chided Nicodemus because Nicodemus, like the disciples—inserted a physical fulfillment to the coming of the Christ.

This is why Peter took up a sword and was willing to physically kill another human being. So that the physical Kingdom that was promised to Israel would not be endangered.

Your issue is with Jesus--and not just about regeneration (John 18:36; Luke 11:20, Luke 17:20-21),
it is not with me.

QvQ · Aug 15, 2022

Clare Said "Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth."

P1LGR1M said:
Sorry, no, they actually didn't.

Then if a person followed Christ during His lifetime and believed in Him, IF that person died before Christ died and the revelations of the comforter, that person did not have eternal life and a new rebirth?
That mean that no one, not even the disciples, had eternal life until after the Resurrection.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
This refers to the patriarchs and the land promise of Genesis 15:9-21.

That is a promise (singular). Just one of the promises (plural).

The disciples are said to be awaiting the Promise of the Father which He (Christ) had taught them about and makes it specific to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed.

I haven't seen it. Could you present the post number where you address Acts 1:4-5 in regard to Acts 11:13-18?

I don't blame you for not addressing it, because it really can't be denied: eternal life is received by the believer when they receive the Promised Spirit. That is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost performed by the Baptizer Jesus Christ.

He mentions that here, too:

John 7:38-39
King James Version

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Consider that this speaks about "believing" and how that ties to receiving the Holy Spirit.

The "living waters" represent eternal life. Again we see that "the Spirit was not yet given" and that this lies in a future day, just as it is taught by Christ in John 14:15-23, John 16:7-9. and Acts 1:4-5.

Unless one is in Christ they are not born again. Unless one has received the eternal indwelling of God they are not born again.

And one cannot be born again unless they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And no man, not even the disciples of Christ—were believing the Gospel. As shown, Peter rejected the Gospel (Matthew 16:20-23). But when the Spirit comes, on the Day of Pentecost, what does Peter do?

He preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
You fail to apprehend NT teaching regarding the nature of the unregenerate (Romans 8:7-8;
1 Corinthians 2:14) if you think they can be unregenerate and filled with the Holy Spirit at the same time, to write such as the Psalms.

That is absurd on its face.

The writers of Scripture were filled by the Spirit of God, not eternally indwelt. Why do you think David cries out "Take not thy Spirit from me?"

So I will just ask once: are you going to actually address the Scripture and points presented or keep jumping from one argument to another?

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

zoidar said:
I don't know how correct you are, but what you say is very interesting. Never thought about it this way before.

How do you reconcile this part with your view?

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
— Matthew 3:11

Jesus was set out from the beginning to baptize in Holy Spirit and fire.

It is prophetic, spoken by a prophet of God, and we can see that He (Christ) did not baptize with the Holy Ghost or fire during His ministry:

Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Note that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost will not take place until "not many days after" the Lord returns to Heaven.

I agree, it is very interesting, lol, and I encourage you to look at this issue. I am not trying to ridicule or condemn Calvinists, because there are issues we agree on. However, this is one teaching that I find not only to be in grievous error but one that confuses quite a lot of doctrine as a consequence. My only goal is to present what I believe as a result of my own studies and encourage others to consider what Scripture teaches.

If I ask you, "What do you understand about the Mystery of the Gospel," what would you say? Is it a doctrine you are familiar with?

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Your issue is with Jesus in John 6:47, not with me.

It isn't "an issue," lol, it is merely speaking about what will take place.

I have presented Scripture that shows the disciples were not yet believing that Christ would die in their stead. I have presented Scripture that shows that the Gospel was not revealed to men during the Age of Law (which is the Age in which Christ ministered in (Galatians 3:4-6)). I have presented Christ saying that men are born again due to His death on the Cross (John 3:9-16).

All I ask is an address of the Scripture and the points given that support my view. Anyone can prooftext, so it is needful that we examine the points and Scripture used to support a position.

Clare73 · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
I haven't seen it. Could you present the post number where you address Acts 1:4-5 in regard to Acts 11:13-18?

Review post #4692.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Your issue is with Jesus--and not just about regeneration (John 18:36; Luke 11:20, Luke 17:20-21),
it is not with me.

Denial of the physical Kingdom that will come, the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:1-6) is another issue I have with a lot of my Reformed brethren.

But I am quite confident that this issue is not with Jesus or His Word. You are welcome to show why the points are in error, and I would be glad for the discussion.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Review post #4692.

Here it is:

Clare73 said:
You aren't paying attention.

Okay, I guess you're done. I just can't argue with that, lol.

Mark Quayle · Aug 15, 2022

Jesus is YHWH said:
foreknowledge precedes decree.

That sounds as though God is a divine book-keeper, noting who is going to choose him, and doling out the reward of regeneration accordingly. Not only does that deny that God is first cause, but it claims merit on the part of the ones who choose well. The success and beauty of God's construction of his Church, does not depend on random choices of the membership.

P1LGR1M · Aug 15, 2022

QvQ said:
Clare Said "Those who believed in Jesus (John 6:47) before he went to the cross had eternal life, which is the new birth."

Then if a person followed Christ during His lifetime and believed in Him, IF that person died before Christ died and the revelations of the comforter, that person did not have eternal life and a new rebirth?
That mean that no one, not even the disciples, had eternal life until after the Resurrection.

For the Just that had already died, I believe this is very true.

For the living, it would be longer than that: it would not be until Pentecost that the disciples are Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which means they are baptized into Christ at that time in eternal union with God) and receive eternal life.

Here is just a snippet of the Scripture I presented as a support for my view:

Acts 1:4-5
King James Version

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when men and women receive the Holy Spirit:

Acts 11:13-18
King James Version

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The "words" whereby Cornelius and his house were saved was the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Acts 10. Cornelius was saved, not merely empowered when he was Baptized with the Holy Ghost. He received repentance unto life. He received eternal life. Because he believed the Gospel, and believed in Jesus Christ.

If Cornelius was saved and received eternal life when he was baptized with the Holy Ghost, and Peter states he received the same gift they received (when they were baptized with the Holy Ghost), then how did men receive eternal life prior to being baptized with the Holy Ghost and brought into eternal union with God?

QvQ · Aug 15, 2022

P1LGR1M said:
And one cannot be born again unless they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And no man, not even the disciples of Christ—were believing the Gospel. As shown, Peter rejected the Gospel (Matthew 16:20-23). But when the Spirit comes, on the Day of Pentecost, what does Peter do?
He preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Born Again
1) Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ
2) Baptism with the Holy Ghost
Peter believed and understood as natural man.
It was the Holy Spirit that turned the belief into Faith.
That is born again.

What is wrong with Calvinism ?

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