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Exactly. So who says God punished Christ for all mankind's sin? Universalists, for starters...
Nor against Calvinism.Why is God's primary attribute love? I don't think this has anything to do with Calvinism.
I don't think she's saying she changed her mind, btw.Nothing wrong with changing horses.
Well, no. Though it is unjust towards sinless Christ, one might say. But justice has been served, and not twice towards those whose penalty THEY end up paying. And so, 'limited atonement'.I don't think you follow my reasoning. The elect are held accountable for sin until they are saved, and still Christ was punished for them. Are you saying that is unjust?
Well, no. Though it is unjust towards sinless Christ, one might say. But justice has been served, and not twice towards those whose penalty THEY end up paying. And so, 'limited atonement'.
Are you saying it is double payment? I still don't get your point. Are you saying that because Christ paid for their sins in the past that they shouldn't be held accountable in the present, being born after Christ paid for their sins? (God's timelessness should answer that question.)I don't think you follow my reasoning. The elect are held accountable for sin until they are saved, and still Christ was punished for them. Are you saying that is unjust?
Hm, so it's not unjust by God to hold someone accountable for a sin that is already paid for? Then I don't think it's unjust of God to hold someone eternally accountable for a sin that has been paid for.
But I do have to say I don't think it works like that with the atonement. I don't think we are saved because Christ took our punishment, but because we receive forgiveness through the Holy Spirit, by the sacrifice of Christ.
I'm questioning the whole notion of penal substitution. One reason is how can Christ have borne sins not yet committed?
Are you saying it is double payment? I still don't get your point. Are you saying that because Christ paid for their sins in the past that they shouldn't be held accountable in the present, being born after Christ paid for their sins? (God's timelessness should answer that question.)
You continue to confuse me with being for Universal Reconciliation (UR) and attach a long canned anti-UR scree. I am not UR.What did Jesus say?
Matthew 7:21-23What did Paul say about "all" being saved?
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10Twenty two categories of unrighteous people who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [no wrongdoer] neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that [no wrongdoer] no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1. adulterers, 2. covetous, 3. drunkenness, 4. effeminate, 5. emulations, 6. envious, 7. extortion 8. fornication, 9. hatred, 10. heresies, 11. homosexuals, 12. idolators, 13. lasciviousness, 14. murder, 15. reveling, 16. revilers 17. sedition, 18. strife, 19. thieves, 20. uncleanness 21. witchcraft. 22. Wrath
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 3:17
The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".
Agree.God commanded all men to hear the gospel.
As a non-Calvinist Evangelical, I see salvation and regeneration lumped together and involving man's co-operation.No man saves himself. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.
Now if you believe it is cooperation or totally the work of the Spirit, the fact remains the Holy Spirit does not regenerate all men.
Although I believe that God desires all to be saved, it does not happen per John 3:18.Saying God desired but couldn't save all is practically blasphemy.
Calvin and all the good people on this thread have noted this "God desires" but fact is, not all are.
I think this raises some difficult points for Calvinists.Calvin and all the good people on this thread have noted this "God desires" but fact is, not all are.
Perhaps God, at this point in time, does not want all men saved. That is according to His plan or as Calvin stated, "His secret councils."
AmenHowever, we must act as commanded; pray and spread the Gospel.
I don't think she's saying she changed her mind, btw.
How do we receive forgiveness through the Holy Spirit, by the sacrifice of Christ, if not by Christ taking our punishment? That IS the sacrifice of Christ.
While we like to think time is king, it is not. God doesn't dwell in time the way we do. I have reason to believe that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and that we were chosen from the foundation of the world, and forgiven from the foundation of the world. In fact, there is more than enough reason to believe that the Bride of Christ was spoken, the finished product, into existence by the Word of God. The fact we see it taking so long is irrelevant.
I'm thinking she wasn't changing her view, just her reference or direction of argument, though I'm not sure what she meant, either.I'm not sure exactly where she changed her view, just affirming it is sometimes good to look over what we hold to be true, and change whatever needs to be changed.
Maybe she just meant she was changing her way of expressing her thesis.I'm not sure exactly where she changed her view, just affirming it is sometimes good to look over what we hold to be true, and change whatever needs to be changed.
My point is only that Christ did not pay for what any sinner ends up paying for himself.I think you can say God limits the application of the atonement, the way God has decided to only apply the effect of the atonement to a person when he receives Christ. What do you think? But I see that Clare meant something else.
I think of it like we are united to Christ through the Holy Spirit, like we hung on that cross.
I'm undecided on penal substitution.
And the other half of the story.No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception. 1 John 2:2,
John 3:16-18.
hope this helps !!!
If I erred in that I apologize the passage you quoted is a common proof text for the UR group.You continue to confuse me with being for Universal Reconciliation (UR) and attach a long canned anti-UR scree. I am not UR.
A different tack.I'm thinking she wasn't changing her view, just her reference or direction of argument, though I'm not sure what she meant, either.
My point is only that Christ did not pay for what any sinner ends up paying for himself.
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