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Timothy 1 2-4You should avail yourself of internet resources where John MacArthur and John Piper wrestle specifically with 1 Timothy 2:4 - its quite the dance.
Deuteronomy 29:29 answers it all for me, while Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 4:23 illustrate it for me.You should avail yourself of internet resources where John MacArthur and John Piper wrestle specifically with 1 Timothy 2:4 - its quite the dance.
God's grace is infinite, but does God give it to all?
Christ's merit is infinite, but does God give it to all?
It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.What does that have to do with the argument?
It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.
As you know, I believe that the Holy Spirit convicts sinners and can get them to chose to repent which results in regeneration per Acts 2:38-39.Again, how does the lost get the willingness to allow God to change their will?
The title of this thread is "What is wrong with Calvinism?" and you have been defending his positions.It sounded to me like you were saying that I believe what I do because Calvin did.
First of all, I don't believe God decrees our actions. I know God's ways are not our ways. Nevertheless, if God commands man to do a particular thing, he cannot decree he do something else without being culpable in a transgression.Yes, obviously we see something different by "true decision making". You conflate "God desires" with "God decrees, plans, sovereignly wills". God has given us his will two ways: 1. His revealed will, or his command; 2. His hidden will, his plan.
Your analogy does not work because you assume God decrees our every action and yet we don't have that power over our children.Of course his command can be disobeyed! How is him telling us to do something, fully knowing we won't, going to change his plan? We do the same thing with our kids; how much more can God, whose plan does not change, who knows the end from the beginning, tell us what to do, knowing whether we will or not —in fact, planning for it to be what it will end up being!
If you really believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says you cannot believe that God has planned anyone to be damned.Only if one interprets it, rather illogically, to mean that God had hopes, even plans, (but we messed that up for him) that absolutely everyone who ever lived or will live will be saved.
In that link, John Piper gets into the two wills of God you mentioned earlier. I reject that theory for the following reason: This has God decreeing that people do evil - which would make God a party in the transgression.Anyhow, I see several different ways it could be taken, and two of which are no different from our common talk. The verse does not defeat Calvinist doctrine, but rather, upholds it, and, it also makes good logical sense, unlike your use of it. Here is one of the well exegeted uses of it: 1 Timothy 2:4 - An Exegesis - Alpha and Omega Ministries (aomin.org)
I won't be meditating on this brand of determinism.Depends on what one means by determinism. To one person it implies that God's purpose in creating the ultimately condemned was only, or at least primarily, to condemn them (which is obviously false). To me it only means that God has determined (caused) all things. To meditate on what God has done, his wondrous works, his wisdom, his authority, his mercy, love and grace toward helpless and rebellious sinners deserving of Hell, (All of those things are inherent in Christian Determinism.) is "wisdom [directly] from scripture", and worthy ("constructive", as you say) for the mind to dwell on. In fact, even the condemnation of the reprobate is worth thinking about, as Romans 9 implies, for our understanding of the Purity, Holiness and Justice and Glory of God.
In context, Timothy is a command to pray for all men to be saved. In context, it is not exactly as you say.If you really believe what 1 Timothy 2:4 explicitly says you cannot believe that God has planned anyone to be damned.
I've changed horses in the middle of the stream.That's the same as we say that the application is limited, but we say the punishment was infinite in width and depth. Christ been punished for all (universal), forgiveness applied to those who believe (limited).
What I was saying was that even if Christ was punished only for the elect, they were separated from Christ and children of wrath before they believed. Why is it then hard to believe Christ was punished for all, but all won't be saved since there are those who are children of wrath, separated from Christ? We both believe an unbeliever is separated from Christ and a child of wrath until he believes, right?
If God is holding someone accountable for sin Jesus has been punished for, isn't that unjust? If they are children of wrath I guess God is holding them accountable for their sins, even Jesus was punished for their sins. The same argument as God punishing sins twice.
Understood in light of the whole counsel of God ....
Yes, it means in light of all Scripture. . .How do you understand what the whole counsel of God says? I think you do by reading different passages, understanding each of them and then see how they go together. When you say "the whole counsel of God" it seems to me
you are saying how you understand Scripure as a whole, nothing more, nothing less.
I've changed horses in the middle of the stream.
The infinite merit of Jesus' satisfaction belongs only to God and is applied by God on his terms.
It's the same with God's infinite grace.
The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".In context, Timothy is a command to pray for all men to be saved. In context, it is not exactly as you say.
Again, there is commentary online by Calvin himself. It is easy to find and easy to read.
What did Jesus say?The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
The text goes much further than "praying for all men to be saved" - it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
If you read Calvin's Commentary, he agrees with you and he states that God commanded all men to hear the gospel.it explicitly states that "God desires all men to be saved".
No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception. 1 John 2:2,It applies to Christ's atonement, which merit is infinite, but God does not give it to all, his application of it is limited.
No God doesn’t limit it at all , man rejects Gods provision which is available to all without exception. 1 John 2:2,
John 3:16-18.
hope this helps !!!
Or James White, or scores of others. It really isn't that difficult an exegesis.Timothy 1 2-4
There are commentaries written by Calvin that are easy to find. You might read what Calvin actually said about Timothy.
Exactly. So who says God punished Christ for all mankind's sin? Universalists, for starters...If God is holding someone accountable for sin Jesus has been punished for, isn't that unjust? If they are children of wrath I guess God is holding them accountable for their sins, even Jesus was punished for their sins. The same argument as God punishing sins twice.
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