What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Then Calvin agrees with Paul in Romans 5:18:
". . .the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

Do you know who is not going to heaven such that you need not pray for him?
Then that leaves all men for whom you are to pray.

If you are going to argue for the Calvinist position then I think you should own the Calvinism. Anyone who rejects Jesus is condemned.

However, the majority of people who have lived and died in the last 2000 years never heard of Jesus and never had an opportunity to make a decision.

Calvinism says that all such are condemned. Do you really think that is what Paul believed?

 

[Clare73]

All men go to hell no matter what (Romans 5:18), except for the mercy of God to some.

What you state here sounds much more like Calvin than Paul.

Then Calvin agrees with Paul in Romans 5:18:
". . .the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

Read the whole verse you quoted - it destroys the 'L' in TULIP.

Romans 5:18 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.​

The passage I just quoted (1 Timothy 2:1-6) says why we are to pray for all people. Verses 1 says to pray for all people, and verses 2-6 tell us why. Meditate on that.

V. 18 = "all people"
V. 4 = "desires all men to be saved"
V. 6 = "ransom for all."

Does "all" mean "all without distinction" (Jews as well as Gentiles), or "all without exception" (everyone)?

Which one agrees with the rest of the NT?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

If you are going to argue for the Calvinist position then I think you should own the Calvinism. Anyone who rejects Jesus is condemned.

However, the majority of people who have lived and died in the last 2000 years never heard of Jesus and never had an opportunity to make a decision.

Calvinism says that all such are condemned. Do you really think that is what Paul believed?

If you saying that people who died in the last 2000 years never heard of Jesus and never had an opportunity to make a decision, then you are not agreeing with what the bible(the inspired word of God says, every person will give an account of themselves to God: Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, Matt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Romans 23:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Therefore, they have had an opportunity to make a decision because He also added this to show that creation itself reveal there is God; Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Clare73]

If you are going to argue for the Calvinist position then I think
you should own the Calvinism.

Not until I've done a thorough study to ascertain what he says he believes, rather than
what others say he believes.

Anyone who rejects Jesus is condemned.

Then Calvin is going light, because Paul states much worse than that in Romans 5:18.

However, the majority of people who have lived and died in the last 2000 years never heard of Jesus and never had an opportunity to make a decision.
Calvinism says that all such are condemned.
Do you really think that is what Paul believed?

I think Paul believed: "the result of one trespass (of Adam) was condemnation for all men."
(Romans 5:18)

Everyone is born condemned.

Do you think he did not believe that?
.

 

[RickReads]

If you saying that people who died in the last 2000 years never heard of Jesus and never had an opportunity to make a decision, then you are not agreeing with what the bible(the inspired word of God says, every person will give an account of themselves to God: Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, Matt 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” Romans 23:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. 2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Therefore, they have had an opportunity to make a decision because He also added this to show that creation itself reveal there is God; Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Really? Well, you aren't telling the whole story. But I`ll skip that part and just note that you are part of the They all burn at the White Throne crowd. Which is an opinion that is mistaken.

 

[RickReads]

Not until I've done a thorough study to ascertain what he says he believes, rather than
what others say he believes.

Then Calvin is going light, because Paul states much worse than that in Romans 5:18.
I think Paul believed: "the result of one trespass (of Adam) was condemnation for all men."
(Romans 5:18)

Everyone is born condemned.

Do you think he did not believe that?
.

I do not. No one is condemned for somebody else sin. The judgment to condemnation is about your sins, not Adam's sin. That`s why babies get a pass. It's not that they wouldn't sin but they don't get a chance to because you know, they were murdered.

 

[John Mullally]

What does that have to do with Romans 5:18; i.e., the condemnation of all men (by the guilt of Adam)?

V. 4 = "desires all men to be saved"
V. 6 = "Ransom for all."

Does all mean "all without distinction (Jews as well as Gentiles), or "all without exception (everyone)?

Which one agrees with the rest of the NT?

1. You said in Post 299, that we are to pray for all men because we do not know who is going to heaven. This means you see 1 Timothy 2:1 as "all without exception". I happen to agree that God wants us to pray for all without exception. Therefore we both agree that the "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:1 is talking about "all without exception".
2. In such a short duration (paragraph size) of 1 Timothy 2:1-6, Paul refers to people as "all men" or "all" in verses 1, 4, and 6. In such a short duration where he is not changing the subject, he cannot be flipping between "all without distinction" and "all without exception".
3. Therefore Paul is talking about "all without exception" throughout 1 Timothy 2:1-6.

I believe the NT teaches that God offers salvation to all. I don't believe He reserves it for a predetermined few - and to eternal fire for the rest (ascribed by some to give God glory).

God calls all men to repent:

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
​

Salvation (remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit) is promised to those who chose to repent. From Peter's preaching style He is exhorting as many as he can to come and repent. If some in the crowd had salvation before repentance, the term "you shall receive" in v38 would be erroneous - you cannot receive something you already have.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Really? Well, you aren't telling the whole story. But I`ll skip that part and just note that you are part of the They all burn at the White Throne crowd. Which is an opinion that is mistaken.

So the scriptures are wrong and you are right, show where you found the scriptures that state your opinion and remember opinions don't trump scripture. Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Romans 14: 10-12 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. John 25:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Every tub sets on it's own bottom.

 

[RickReads]

Not until I've done a thorough study to ascertain what he says he believes, rather than
what others say he believes.

Then Calvin is going light, because Paul states much worse than that in Romans 5:18.
I think Paul believed: "the result of one trespass (of Adam) was condemnation for all men."
(Romans 5:18)

Everyone is born condemned.

Do you think he did not believe that?
.

To clarify another point. Anyone who rejects Jesus is condemned is not a Calvinist position.
I pointed it out because it is the only automatic condemnation there is according to the Kingdom Gospel

 

[Clare73]

I do not. No one is condemned for somebody else sin. The judgment to condemnation is about your sins, not Adam's sin.

But Paul teaches that we are condemned by his guilt, just as
he teaches that we are made righteous by somebody else's righteousness, not our own.
(Romans 5:18-19)

 

[RickReads]

But Paul teaches that we are, just as
he teaches that we are made righteous by somebody else's righteousness, not our own.
(Romans 5:18-19)

And we were made sinners by one. That doesn't mean we are guilty of Adams's sins. It means that we are predisposed to sin. it means we have the nature of the sinful flesh.

We do not receive credit for the good works of Christ but we receive His righteous nature. Likewise, we did not commit Adams's sin but we receive his sinful nature.

 

[John Mullally]

Not until I've done a thorough study to ascertain what he says he believes, rather than what others say he believes.

If you are not closely following Calvin, you are following others that do. You are intelligent. Given how much you support Reformed positions on this forum, its time to become familiar with its leading figure.

 

[Clare73]

I believe the NT teaches that God offers salvation to all.

He does. And Jesus reveals:
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

I don't believe He reserves it for a predetermined few - and to eternal fire for the rest (ascribed by some to give God glory).

God calls all men to repent:

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,​

He does, and repentance is given/granted (Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25).

Salvation (remission of sins and receipt of the Holy Spirit) is promised to those who chose to repent. From Peter's preaching style He is exhorting as many as he can to come and repent. If some in the crowd had salvation before repentance, the term "you shall receive" in v38 would be erroneous - you cannot receive something you already have.

In the beginning, as the Holy Spirit was received at Pentecost, so the Holy Spirit was received with baptism (Acts 19:1-6), even by the Gentiles (Acts 10:46).

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.​

 

[RickReads]

So the scriptures are wrong and you are right, show where you found the scriptures that state your opinion and remember opinions don't trump scripture. Phil 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Romans 14: 10-12 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. John 25:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. Every tub sets on it's own bottom.

Ok Bubba, I`ll give you a one and out. Maybe you'll think about what you are saying.

Romans 5
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[Clare73]

To clarify another point. Anyone who rejects Jesus is condemned. . .is not a Calvinist position.
I pointed it out because
it is the only automatic condemnation there is according to the Kingdom Gospel

Okay. . .but you are aware, right, that

the NT reveals there is only one gospel of Jesus Christ,
given personally by Jesus Christ to the apostle Paul (Galatians 1:11-12),
who was caught up to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8),
any other gospels being a perversion (Galatians 1:7) and
anyone preaching another gospel being eternally condemned (Galatians 1:8-9).

 

[Clare73]

And we were made sinners by one. That doesn't mean we are guilty of Adams's sins.

It means that we are reckoned with Adam's guilt (not with the one sin itself), by imputation.

It means that we are predisposed to sin. it means we have the nature of the sinful flesh.

Yes, we inherited Adam's sinful nature.
But we did not inherit his guilt (sin and guilt are not inherited), rather his guilt was imputed/accounted to us by God himself.

Note that the two contrasting parallels of the text (Romans 5:18-19) state "condemnation for all mankind" because of one trespass."
It does not state condemnation because of a predisposition to sin by the nature of sinful flesh.

We do not receive credit

But note that the text states precisely that righteousness (justification) was credited/reckoned/accounted/imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:2-3; Genesis 15:6),
just as by faith God credits/reckons/accounts/imputes Christ's righteousness (justification) to believers (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-24).

for the good works of Christ but we receive His righteous nature.

However, we do not receive Christ's righteous nature.
The nature of the believer is still fallen, however, sin no longer has dominion/power over him.

Likewise, we did not commit Adams's sin but we receive his sinful nature.

Correct. . .we did not commit Adam's sin, its guilt was imputed/accounted to us.
Nor do we have Christ's nature, his righteousness is imputed/accounted to us.

Inheritance and reckoning/imputation are two different things:
We inherit the nature of our ancestors--sinful.

We are reckoned/imputed with the guilt of Adam by birth, and
we are reckoned/imputed with the righteousness of Christ by rebirth/faith.

 

[John Mullally]

I believe the NT teaches that God offers salvation to all.

He does. And Jesus reveals:
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)
"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)
"I shall lose none of all that the Father has given me." (John 6:39)

God does not offer anything that cannot be received. He is not Uncle Laban. He did not make us responsible, without making us response able. God loves all men and wants all to come to the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9) and Christ gave himself a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 2:2, even Romans 5:18). Therefore he is not keeping people out. Effectively, based upon Acts 2 all who repent are given by the Father to Jesus.

I believe the NT teaches that God offers salvation to all. I don't believe He reserves it for a predetermined few - and to eternal fire for the rest (ascribed by some to give God glory).

He does, and repentance is given/granted (Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25).

God is not preventing anyone from repenting and coming to the truth due to his desire for them to be saved. The draw of the Holy Spirit is not irresistible. Acts 7:51 says you can resist the Holy Spirit and Galatians 2:21 says you can nullify the grace of God.

 

[Clare73]

If you are not closely following Calvin, you are following others that do. You are intelligent. Given how much you support Reformed positions on this forum, its time to become familiar with its leading figure.

I support NT teaching. . .so you are saying that NT teaching is also Reformed teaching.

I don't need to be familiar with either Calvin or Reformed to know NT teaching.

 

[John Mullally]

I support NT teaching. . .so you are saying that NT teaching is also Reformed teaching.

I don't need to be familiar with either Calvin or Reformed to know NT teaching.

You are evasive.

 

[Clare73]

God does not offer anything that cannot be received. He is not Uncle Laban. He did not make us responsible, without making us response able. God loves all men and wants all to come to the truth (1 Timothy 2:4 & 2 Peter 3:9) and Christ gave himself a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:4, 1 John 2:2, even Romans 5:18).

Jesus said he came "to give his life as a ransom for many "(Matthew 20:28).

Therefore he is not keeping people out. Effectively, based upon Acts 2
all who repent are given by the Father to Jesus.

Scripture reference?

Or is it, all whom the Father gives to Jesus will repent?
That is in harmony with John 6:37, rather than in disagreement with it.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me."

God is not preventing anyone from repenting and coming to the truth

Precisely. . .their fallen nature does a very good job of that on its own.
In fact, it does such a good job that they can't "unless the Father has enabled them." (John 6:65)

due to his desire for them to be saved. The draw of the Holy Spirit is not irresistible.
Acts 7:51 says you can resist the Holy Spirit

Correct. . .anyone who disobeys God's law resists the Holy Spirit.
Anyone who denies the evidence of God's existence in creation resists the Holy Spirit.

But when God draws ("dragnets") one to himself, he does so by operating in their fallen sinful disposition, giving them to prefer his will, which they then freely choose because they now prefer it.
They come of their own free will, choosing what they prefer, without any external force or constraint.

and Galatians 2:21 says you can nullify the grace of God.

Yes, by relying on law-keeping for righteousness (justification), you "cancel out" (nullify) grace.
By relying on law-keeping for righteousness, you "fall from grace" for the source of your justification.
(Galatians 5:4)