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And Aquinas. . .Luther. . .in opposing camps?I am only against the doctrine that everyone calls calvinism= tulip ... you are correct about Augustine that is the origination of the doctrine and his roots were gnostic Manicheism. EDD exhaustive divine determinism is the foundational blocks of tulip.
Everything is God's doing even sin...
Just as the Jews would have at that time... it is speaking corporately just as it's reference in OT...And Aquinas. . .Luther. . .in opposing camps?
So how do you understand Romans 9:22-24?
Just as the Jews would have at that time... it is speaking corporately just as it's reference in OT...
Sorry, I don't see the connection. Maybe you could explain.
Are you trying to rattle my cage? I thought maybe you were on to something but sorry no brass ring : )Try a dictionary next time.
Propitiation is the act of appeasing or making well-disposed a deity, thus incurring divine favor or avoiding divine retribution.
Are you trying to rattle my cage? I thought maybe you were on to something but sorry no brass ring : )
Also Rom:2 and notice toward the end of Rom:2, I think Paul indicates they will also be judged by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Amazing ain't it? If that is true it really gives us something to contemplate!We know all know, have knowledge of, God by what He has made Romans 1:18-22 and I leave all judgment to the Son as The Father has...
When I start hearing bells I will let you know : )It's a very basic doctrine of the gospel. Wedding Garment, His Righteousness, Grace, take your pick.
Surely something will ring a bell.
When I start hearing bells I will let you know : )[/QUOTE
No brass rings or bells here, don't go away mad, just go away, please : )13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
But Paul applies "the corporate" to us Christians in 9:23-24: "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called,"Just as the Jews would have at that time... it is speaking corporately just as it's reference in OT...
Here is a complete resource to provisionism which is finer tuned from Southern Baptist traditionalism
Romans 9 Outline – SOTERIOLOGY 101
Romans 9 is basically about God fulfilling His purposes, not about individual salvation. If He has to harden a heart to achieve His overarching purpose He does so but that does not mean that heart is condemned. Look at Annias and Safire, do you really believe they were condemned to hell for one lie? If so we are all in danger of hell fire. Or do you even see any correlation? Why do you keep pushing a doctrine that makes no sense scriptural or otherwise?But Paul applies "the corporate" to us Christians in 9:23-24: "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called,"
The corporate is not just Israel, it is NT believers.
"God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" (9:18) in both the OT and the NT, and
he holds man accountable for his hard heart in both the OT and the NT, and
the clay does not question the potter who, from the same lump of clay, makes some vessels for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste) in both the OT and the NT.
This is more than just a particular situation for a particular group.
This is God's sovereign MO for all mankind, both OT and NT, right?
Quite honestly, I haven't studied "Calvinism," I've studied Paul.
I argue Paul, not "Calvinism."
But I suspect some of the stuff out here attributed to "Calvinism" is misunderstanding of Calvin.
What you state here sounds much more like Calvin than Paul.All men go to hell no matter what (Romans 5:18), except for the mercy of God to some.
What you state here sounds much more like Calvin than Paul.
“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, NKJV
The old pagan definition of omniscience that we inherited from the pagan Greeks (by idolatry of all thing Greek) that GOD must know all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future, while it seems so perfectly glorious, it contradicts HIS stated view about people in hell* which should have forced a re-evaluation long before now. IF HE knew before their creation who would end in hell all HE had to do to remedy this contravention of HIS desires would have been to not create them in the first place!
*Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked... and
1 Timothy 2:4...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
May I suggest that a prayerful study of
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. might prove useful as a starting point for this necessary re-evaluation? This verse limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.'[/B] All HIS works describes HIS creative decrees.
Therefore if HE did not decree into creation something, HE did not know it...and I suggest HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for ourselves. When HE created us with a free will, HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create them and bring them into reality and into HIS consciousness.
Sorry if I misled...I was not saying that the words meant the same thing but that His knowing certain people and not others defined more tightly what He knew by His omniscience, in some but not all cases.
This definition implies that HE also foresaw who would not have faith but created them anyway just to end in hell, when HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wants no one to die but all to repent.
The old pagan definition of omniscience that we inherited from the pagan Greeks (by idolatry of all thing Greek) that GOD must know all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future, while it seems so perfectly glorious, it contradicts HIS stated view about people in hell*
IF HE knew before their creation who would end in hell all HE had to do to remedy this contravention of HIS desires would have been to not create them in the first place!
Try a dictionary next time.
Propitiation is the act of appeasing or making well-disposed a deity, thus incurring divine favor or avoiding divine retribution.
PROPITIATION
The value of Christ’s death as a vindication of God’s righteousness is indicated by the word propitiation. Here we enter upon an intricate aspect of the doctrine of the Atonement. The word “propitiation” appears in the English Bible three times. The Apostle John uses it twice in his First Epistle. Speaking of Jesus Christ, he writes,
He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:2).
And again,
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins (I John 4:10).
The Greek word here is “hilasmos,” and means “that which propitiates.” It signifies expiation. Numbers 5:8 speaks of “the ram of atonement” (propitiation), and again in Psalm 130:4, “There is forgiveness (propitiation) with Thee.” Here is the sole ground upon which God shows mercy to guilty sinners. Christ alone, through the shedding of His Blood in His sacrificial and substitutionary Death on the Cross, is the Propitiation, that which expiates or propitiates. He extinguishes the guilt of the sinner by suffering the penalty for sin. Notice that it does not say that His death was the propitiation, but that He himself is the Propitiation. It is the Person of our Lord which gives efficacy to His atoning work.
In Romans 3:25 the Apostle Paul speaks of Christ,
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His Blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearance of God.
Here the Greek word is not “hilasmos,” meaning “that which propitiates,” but “hilasterion,” which means, “the place of propitiation.” The word “hilasterion” is used in Hebrews 9:5, where we read: “And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat (hilasterion, or the place of propitiation).”
“Propitiation” means “mercy seat” in Hebrews 9:5, and we must go back to the Old Testament to see what the mercy seat was typically to the Israelite. The mercy seat was the golden lid or the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Once a year, on the Day of Atonement, the high priest sprinkled the sacrificial blood of an innocent victim to atone for the broken Law. The tables of stone on which were written the holy Law were kept in the Ark. The sprinkled blood covered the broken Law and made possible a meeting place between God and the sinner (Exodus 25:21-22; Leviticus 16:2, 13-14). The mercy seat was made of pure gold (Exodus 25:17), and covered the whole Ark.
Jesus Christ, the pure Son of God, is the sinner’s Mercy Seat, and His Blood covers all our sin. According to Scripture, therefore, the mercy seat in the Tabernacle was a type of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord fulfilled the type and symbol perfectly. After His death and burial He arose from the grave, ascended into Heaven, and on the ground of His shed Blood made possible a meeting place where the sinner could come to God.
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own Blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us (Hebrews 9:12).
Christ Himself is the Mercy Seat sprinkled with His own precious Blood.
In our Lord’s propitiatory work there is no thought of God placating Himself or of appeasing His own anger. God’s feeling toward mankind has never changed. There never was a time in man’s history when God did not love him. God always has desired to bless man with salvation and its accompanying peace and joy, but the sin of man placed an obstacle in God’s way, separating the sinner from Himself. It is true that God hates sin and will always hate sin. The Death of Jesus Christ did in no wise change God’s view of sin.
The Death of Christ was a purely legal operation. The Judge took upon Himself the penalty so that the judgment seat becomes the mercy seat. The prayer of the publican, “God be merciful to me a sinner” (Luke 18:13), is literally, “God be propitious to me a sinner.” This passage is sometimes misunderstood and misused. This man stood on Old Testament ground before the Death of Christ, and he was actually asking God to offer that one Sacrifice for sin which would put that sin away and thus provide a ground upon which a holy and righteous God could bless him with salvation. Remember, he was not asking God to be generous or lenient with him. He was merely asking God to be propitious, and in making such a request he was justified.
Now we can see plainly that such a prayer need not be uttered today. God has been propitious in Christ. The eternal Son became our Mercy Seat, and to ask God to do what He already has done would be rejecting the Death of Christ. God cannot be lenient with sin, and sinners need not beg mercy from God. God was merciful when He provided for man the Saviour, and man is saved when he believes in and receives the Lord Jesus Christ. God has paid the penalty for sin, and on that basis His mercy is extended to you today.
For Thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee (Psalm 86:5).
. . . With the Lord there is mercy, and with Him is plenteous redemption (Psalm 130:7).The Atonement of Christ | Bible.org
hope this helps !!!
Then Calvin agrees with Paul in Romans 5:18:What you state here sounds much more like Calvin than Paul.
Do you know who is not going to heaven such that you need not pray for him?“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)
1 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, NKJV
Calvin agreed with only the first half of what Paul wrote in Romans 5:18. If Paul meant "life for some people" as Calvinists assert, he would not say "life for all people".Then Calvin agrees with Paul in Romans 5:18:
". . .the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."
The passage I just quoted (1 Timothy 2:1-6) says why we are to pray for all people. Verses 1 says to pray for all people, and verses 2-6 tell us why. Meditate on that.Do you know who is not going to heaven such that you need not pray for him?
Then that leaves all men for whom you are to pray.
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