What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

Hahaha! Yes, I recall you supposing I did. In fact, when you said I was the one who brought it up, I SHOWED you that all I brought up in that post was the scriptural fact of —what was it— irresistable grace? —I don't remember now. Whatever it was, the principle is not drawn from TULIP, but from Scriptures such as Eph 2. If the occasion is coming back to you now, maybe you can remember that I showed that it was YOU who introduced TULIP into the conversation, though you accused me of it. Odd how you only recollect what you suppose, even after it was proven otherwise to you.

With over 2000 posts it's possible someone else brought TULIP into this debate, although you proved nothing. I just wasn't willing to go on a trivia pursuit. But I can guarantee you this, I didn't bring TULIP into the debate nor would I initiate a conversation about it. I would never do that.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Repentance is admitting one has been wrong toward God and now one is submitting to God. There is no boasting when one repents. This is yet another Calvinist fallacy. There are no claims of self-merit in repentance.

Agreed that such is not true repentance, if it is done by the unregenerate. It is at best, momentary, not eternal. It is God who must do this in us.

You say, "There is no boasting when one repents. This is yet another Calvinist fallacy."; you are posing a strawman. The reference is from Eph 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." This is what Calvinism refers to. Your fallacy claims that man can indeed effect his own salvation by qualifying in some way before God can work his grace. And so, I say, then you have whereof to boast.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To see (eidon) means "to know, to be acquainted with."

You cannot respond to information regarding the kingdom of God because it is foolishness to you, you cannot understand it (1 Corinthians 2:14) until you have the Holy Spirit, which is regeneration.

There is a major difference between being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and actually having the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is bad theology to say that a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they believe the Gospel. What! An atheist is born again of the Spirit of God while not believing that Jesus Christ died for his sins? How does that work? Sounds like loony tunes theology to me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

In every case, the person had already chosen their path before God intervened in their lives.

God "intervened" in their lives before they were even conceived. Or do you think all that is natural is not also miracle, since even existence itself, of the creature, it is caused by an act of God. "The natural order of things" is not by chance, nor by naturalism, but by God.

 

[Clare73]

There is a major difference between being enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and actually having the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is bad theology to say that a person is regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they believe the Gospel. What! An atheist is born again of the Spirit of God while not believing that Jesus Christ died for his sins? How does that work? Sounds like loony tunes theology to me.

Paul is the pattern. . .

How was Paul reborn?

Did he believe that Jesus died for his sin when he got knocked off that horse?

No, he did not. . .his faith in Jesus Christ was the result of God's work, not its cause.

 

[zoidar]

You are the one who claimed it is not. It is an act, someone one does, and therefore by simple definition, a deed. It need not come from Scripture.

But this does come from Scripture: "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." And again, I submit that repentance pleases God, which the sin nature is unable to do, according to Romans 8; and that repentance is of God's good pleasure, so that it is only by him working in us to will and to do it, that it is done —A deed.

It's the Biblical understanding of deed that is important. We are talking about if repentance is a deed in for example Paul's writings. If we today say repentance is a deed is of less importance, since then we mean something else than Paul does when he says "ergon".

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
— Philippians 2:12-13

If we look that this passage you quoted it talks about those that already have received the Holy Spirit. In them God is at work for His will and pleasure. It has nothing to with repentance and regeneration.

 

[zoidar]

Paul is the pattern. . .

How was Paul reborn?

Did he believe that Jesus died for his sin when he got knocked off that horse?

No, he did not. . .his faith in Jesus Christ was the result of God's work, not its cause.

I will have to agree with that, but I see Paul as an exception. Have you seen Jesus and fallen off a horse?

 

[Greg Cheney]

Agreed that such is not true repentance, if it is done by the unregenerate. It is at best, momentary, not eternal. It is God who must do this in us.

You say, "There is no boasting when one repents. This is yet another Calvinist fallacy."; you are posing a strawman. The reference is from Eph 2: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." This is what Calvinism refers to. Your fallacy claims that man can indeed effect his own salvation by qualifying in some way before God can work his grace. And so, I say, then you have whereof to boast.

Yes - "you say" - the Bible says otherwise.

 

[Greg Cheney]

Nor do I teach that he decides for us. I teach that he decides, and so do we, according to our inclinations, according to our will. Imagine God "honoring" free will so much that he decided to create the person to whom he gave this 'free will', knowing ahead what that person would do with it, condemning himself!

You claim that he gives you a desire to choose whatever you choose. One step backward, same conclusion.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Imagine God "honoring" free will so much that he decided to create the person to whom he gave this 'free will', knowing ahead what that person would do with it, condemning himself! Unless, I misunderstand this statement!

A statement like this is the prime reason that once I ever recollect hearing the view God chose some by name to go to heaven and others by name he chose to go to damnation is why I would never be able to see a loving God not allowing a means of salvation for all. The scriptures tell us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us and bless those who curse us and then to condemn those who have yet to be born to go directly to hell when they die without ever being able to do like wise is beyond my understanding why anyone would believe such a thing! Why would He say the wages of sin is death when the person would never have had an opportunity to do otherwise? Read this passages for yourself and get the context: And consider Romans 1:18-32 these in this scripture are 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they "became" futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.24Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity for the dishonoring of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen
26For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. This seems clear to me that they chose and although they knew God(about him) rejected the truth and were shown in the creation that there is a God. Jesus said, Mark 12: 28 Now one of the scribes had come up and heard their debate. Noticing how well Jesus had answered them, he asked Him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.32 “Right", Teacher,” the scribe replied. “You have stated correctly that God is One and there is no other but Him, 33 and to love Him with all your heart and with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself, which is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

[Greg Cheney]

Precisely. . .they choose what they prefer. . .but still having a limited free will which is not able to choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed.

God himself says there is no temptation that you cannot say no to (1 Cor. 10:13). I believe him, not you.

 

[RickReads]

God "intervened" in their lives before they were even conceived. Or do you think all that is natural is not also miracle, since even existence itself, of the creature, it is caused by an act of God. "The natural order of things" is not by chance, nor by naturalism, but by God.

I was addressing the fact that they had chosen their path before God intervened i.e. Pharoah who hardened his heart on his own before God began affecting his decisions.

if you want to debate causation go see Cormack though I dunno why you would want another dose of what he has for you. LOL!

 

[Clare73]

I will have to agree with that, but I see Paul as an exception. Have you seen Jesus and fallen off a horse?

Your memory of your own rebirth is short. . .Paul has nothing on you.

 

[Clare73]

You claim that he gives you a desire to choose whatever you choose. One step backward,
same conclusion.

Bottom line. . .you still choose what you prefer. . .where's the problem?

 

[RickReads]

Your memory of your own rebirth is short. . .Paul has nothing on you.

Did your town have a parade when it happened to you?

 

[Greg Cheney]

Bottom line. . .you still choose what you prefer. . .where's the problem?

The problem is that God fixes your destiny for you, then chastises you for choosing to do what he caused you to prefer....that only makes sense to Calvinists.

 

[zoidar]

Your memory of your own rebirth is short. . .Paul has nothing on you.

I didn't meet Jesus before praying for forgiveness. Paul met Jesus as he was chasing down Christians. A bit of a difference I would say.

 

[Clare73]

I didn't meet Jesus before praying for forgiveness. Paul met Jesus as he was chasing down Christians. A bit of a difference I would say.

The order is irrelevant. It is the elements that are common.

 

[zoidar]

The order is irrelevant. It is the elements that are common.

Do you believe Paul was saved when he met Jesus on the road to Damascus?

 

[Clare73]

Do you believe Paul was saved when he met Jesus on the road to Damascus?

Absolutely! His immediate response was submission.