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what is WOF???

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LivingWorship

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Andrew I can't understand why on earth WOF puts so much value on temporal wealth... wealth that the moths and rust eat at and destroy. We should be seeking heavenly treasure... I'm not saying wealth is cursed but neither should we be saying poverty is a curse... because so many of our bretheren suffer for the sake of the gospel. If it's a curse then our dear persecuted bretheren must have it wrong... funny that, the fastest growing church in the world is the persecuted church... I am told China's church is growing by something like 20000 a week!! The worries of this life haven't choked them and all they ever do is proclaim the good news to whoever will hear it... something we really need to do in the Western church, and drop the pursuit of wealth, the gimmicks, the false teaching and simply preach Christ.

Have you read Revelation 3:14-22? This is the church of the present age, at least in the Western world... claiming they are rich, claiming they need nothing... we need to pursue the white garments, and pursue the gold refined by fire.

It's not nice to hear but the Word isn't always pretty but it is always TRUE. God bless
 
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pmarquette

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I think some [critics] would distinguish Word-Faith with the following:

1. Jesus Died Spiritually
what is the definition of spiritual death ? The absense of God , being separated from God ... why did Jesus cry out : ailee ailee mela sebathany?
except he for the moment he bore the sin of the world was separted from God and the Holy Spirit ... experienced the second death to destroy hell , death , and grave...

2. The Little Gods --- children of God , ones able to excell , rise above , speak to the mountains , resist , stand ... by comparison to the children of the devil who simply put up with what he does to them .... little anointed ones .... christian's ...little christ's
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

3. The Prosperity --- God told Abraham to persue him and all the things the gentiles sought would chase him ; deuteronomy 28.1-6 says blessed in allthat you do ; 2 corinthians 9.6-8 says all grace for all needs at all times ; I will multiply your seed ( offering , over and above the tithe ) some 30, 60, 100 times ... how do you see poverty in that ?

4. Faith in Faith and/or Faith as a Force --- use the faith within you ... as the faith of the seed is the little plant , yet unborn , awaiting the warmth , soil , and water , so is the new birth -- christ in us , awaiting the power of the Holy Ghost , the answer of the call on our lives , to kick in the power to go and do it ...


We do not believe that one has to be broke , sick , and miserable to follow christ ...
what is wealth , where is the cut off .... in matthew chapter 19 ?
it is all relative isn't it ?



....So the above are some things that critics will focus on when attempting to distinguish WoF from the rest of Christiandom (including Pentecostals and other Charismatics). Therefore, I list these things so that you will have an answer for when you are challenged in these areas..
 
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Andrew

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Living Worship,

So far as the Hebrew for angels... well I guess I must take your word that it means god

Dont take my word for it. Check it up in Strong's Concordance.

But to suggest that man in his fallen nature is a little god... when we can't even save ourselves... if we are gods, even little ones

You forget that we have been redeemed by Christ's blood. That we are IN Christ and He in us. We are in a better position than Adam b4 the fall. Also, remember that when Jesus called them gods, it was post fall and pre-cross!

If Jesus saw it fit to call us gods, I'll humble myslef, put aside theology, and just honour His Word by just believing and accepting it. I hope you will too, some day soon. :)

* Psalms 82:6
6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

* John 10:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
 
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pmarquette

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LivingWorship said:
Andrew I can't understand why on earth WOF puts so much value on temporal wealth... wealth that the moths and rust eat at and destroy. show me how to operate a church , outreach , ministry without any money and I'll agree with you ..... wealth of the wicked stored up for the use of the righteous ?

We should be seeking heavenly treasure... I'm not saying wealth is cursed but neither should we be saying poverty is a curse... because so many of our bretheren suffer for the sake of the gospel.
What does John 10.10 say .... live life abundantly .... how do you get $7000.00 a year , a mobile home , 6 kids , ADC , and food stamps out of abundant life or the floodgates of heaven in Malachi , or the blessings of deuteronomy 28.1-6 ?
If it's a curse then our dear persecuted bretheren must have it wrong... funny that, the fastest growing church in the world is the persecuted church... I am told China's church is growing by something like 20000 a week!!
since when is persecution synonomous with poverty ? we all are to suffer for Christ ... get off our rear ends and go and do some thing : Ezekiel 3.18-24 ; Matthew 28.18 ; Matthew 25.32-42 .... why we ain't growing ... ain't doing ...
The worries of this life haven't choked them and all they ever do is proclaim the good news to whoever will hear it... something we really need to do in the Western church, and drop the pursuit of wealth, the gimmicks, the false teaching and simply preach Christ.
Jesus had " old timer's syndrome " when he said " speak to the mountain ?"
Mark was a few bricks short of a load when he said " these signs and wonders will accompany believers?" ; God was confused when He blessed Solomon , Abraham , Jacob , Joseph ... ?
Have you read Revelation 3:14-22? This is the church of the present age, at least in the Western world... claiming they are rich, claiming they need nothing... we need to pursue the white garments, and pursue the gold refined by fire.
look at Zechariah 13.8 ... speaking of dross ... junk , filthy lucre , self , not using to build the kingdom ... not money , perse ... as in the following :
filthy lucre , mizer , selfish , self , Matthew 25.42-50
Luke 12:18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
Luke 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luke 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided
?
accountability in heaven for work on earth ( stewardship )
1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

...... faith + word + anointing + purpose + vision + money = ministry ......

It's not nice to hear but the Word isn't always pretty but it is always TRUE. God bless
 
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LivingWorship

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Andrew, looks like we'll agree to disagree.. as I said, Jesus only said it to justify that He was the Son of God... why would He wish to exalt those who are stoning Him? H And you just shot your own argument... if this was PRE-CROSS then we cannot be gods, WE ARE FALLEN. We are not redeemed by Christ at this point so how we can be considered gods by God's standard is ludicrous... as I said before the Psalm referred to the gods as the judges, the tribal leaders, kings of the earth, but only because in the historical contest they were worshipped as gods... it is not a title of deity for them OR us. We are made in his likeness but we clearly don't have the power of God, so to call ourselves gods when we lack the power and we clearly will die, is foolishness.

PM Arquette Hell was put there by God to punish Satan, read the book. Jesus did not go there, nor did Jesus destroy hell - this will be the eternal home of Satan, so why would God destroy it? He DID conquer death. Jesus was separated from God but that is not equated to spiritual death... isn't the spirit eternal? Everyone will live forever - in heaven with GOd or in hell without. Pure and simple. Again, if Jesus death in the PHYSICAL was enough, why need there be a spiritual death also? God turned away because He could not behold sin, not to spiritually kill Jesus.

Already answered the little gods thing... see above...

Seed... well isn't it interesting how in one book we interpret the seed as the Word, yet in another because it talks about increase it must be money... now I never said God can't reward financially - He clearly does. But to suggest this is a promise for all of us to partake in is not Scriptural, otherwise every Christian would be rich... the ones with the greatest faith are unquestionably the persecuted ones, and they are poor, naked and dying in the flesh... BUT GREAT IS THEIR REWARD IN HEAVEN. O for the day when the Western church returns to that... pursue HEAVENLY things FIRST. Not only, but just FIRST!!!

Faith a force... so do we simply reduce the fruits of the Spirit to a scientific equation and use that formula on our sugardaddy bless-me Lord? You be the judge... God does provide our NEEDS... again are the persecuted church free from suffering yet?

If we disagre that's fine, what unites us is Jesus Christ for sure... but please read the Word. While it's important to realise that we are more than conquerors we must be honest with ourselves and see what it is the Bible is really saying. Blessings everyone.
 
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Andrew

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Andrew I can't understand why on earth WOF puts so much value on temporal wealth.

I'm sorry you get that impression. I've read many books written by WOFers but have never gotten that impression. They simply teach Christians how to break out of the poverty or illness cycle. Also, I see that they are the ones sponsoring missions and missionaries, running evangelistic crusades, setting up churches etc, becos they can afford too, thanks to the blessings of God.

but neither should we be saying poverty is a curse...

I am simply saying what the sciptures say. But I see you want to disagree with plain scripture, and use humanistic reasoning, which sounds nice and proper to the carnal mind.

the fastest growing church in the world is the persecuted church.

I do not think that is an objective statement, given that China has billions of people and billions of unsaved people. So naturally the potential is there. Also, you are giving credit to the "sufferings" of Christians instead of the "power of the gospel unto salvation". Also, you are confusing Biblical Christian suffering with suffering lack.

as I said, Jesus only said it to justify that He was the Son of God

You are simply stating one truth at the expense of the other. Both are truths. But you are just picking and choosing what suits your argument.

And you just shot your own argument... if this was PRE-CROSS then we cannot be gods, WE ARE FALLEN. We are not redeemed by Christ at this point so how we can be considered gods by God's standard is ludicrous...

You still do not understnd simple truths here. Adam was a god, according to the Word and according to the authority given him. And becos we are in Christ and seated with Christ, we have something better than what Adam had. Romans 5 calls it "much more". So we are gods too, only this time, better than the god Adam was.

it is not a title of deity for them OR us

However you want to define it does not matter. If Jesus said we are gods, then we are. The only thing is that WOF has never said we are God (cap g).

It is sad that you do not realise how much Christ has done for us, and how, through his suffering and death, has place us in such a blessed position to reign with Him in life. If you continue to see yourself as still Fallen, instead of seated with Christ, it will be easy for Satan to tread all over you. Humble yourself and accept with thanksgiving what Christ has done for you. Walk in the light of your position and authority in Christ. Quit seeing yourself as so lowly and unworthy to be joint heirs with Christ. It is just self-righteousness. :)
 
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LynneClomina

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this seems balanced, doesn't it? its long but i thought it would be of interest....

Matthew Henry Complete Commentary
on the Whole Bible

Chapter 82

This psalm is calculated for the meridian of princes’ courts and courts of justice, not in Israel only, but in other nations; yet it was probably penned primarily for the use of the magistrates of Israel, the great Sanhedrim, and their other elders who were in places of power, and perhaps by David’s direction. This psalm is designed to make kings wise, and "to instruct the judges of the earth’’ (as 2 and 10), to tell them their duty as (2 Sa. 23:3), and to tell them of their faults as 58:1. We have here, I. The dignity of magistracy and its dependence upon God (v. 1). II. The duty of magistrates (v. 3, 4). III. The degeneracy of bad magistrates and the mischief they do (v. 2, 5). IV. Their doom read (v. 6, 7). V. The desire and prayer of all good people that the kingdom of God may be set up more and more (v. 8). Though magistrates may most closely apply this psalm to themselves, yet we may any of us sing it with understanding when we give glory to God, in singing it, as presiding in all public affairs, providing for the protection of injured innocency, and ready to punish the most powerful injustice, and when we comfort ourselves with a belief of his present government and with the hopes of his future judgment.A psalm of Asaph.

Verses 1-5 We have here, I. God’s supreme presidency and power in all councils and courts asserted and laid down, as a great truth necessary to be believed both by princes and subjects (v. 1): God stands, as chief director, in the congregation of the mighty, the mighty One, in coetu fortis—in the councils of the prince, the supreme magistrate, and he judges among the gods, the inferior magistrates; both the legislative and the executive power of princes is under his eye and his hand. Observe here, 1. The power and honour of magistrates; they are the mighty. They are so in authority, for the public good (it is a great power that they are entrusted with), and they ought to be so in wisdom and courage. They are, in the Hebrew dialect, called gods; the same word is used for these subordinate governors that is used for the sovereign ruler of the world. They are elohim. Angels are so called both because they are great in power and might and because God is pleased to make use of their service in the government of this lower world; and magistrates in an inferior capacity are likewise the ministers of his providence in general, for the keeping up of order and peace in human societies, and particularly of his justice and goodness in punishing evil-doers and protecting those that do well. Good magistrates, who answer the ends of magistracy, are as God; some of his honour is put upon them; they are his vicegerents, and great blessings to any people. A divine sentence is in the lips of the king, Prov. 16:10. But, as roaring lions and ranging bears, so are wicked rulers over the poor people, Prov. 28:15. 2. A good form and constitution of government intimated, and that is a mixed monarchy like ours; here is the might one, the sovereign, and here is his congregation, his privy-council, his parliament, his bench of judges, who are called the gods. 3. God’s incontestable sovereignty maintained in and over all the congregations of the mighty. God stands, he judges among them; they have their power from him and are accountable to him. By him kings reign. He is present at all their debates, and inspects all they say and do, and what is said and done amiss will be called over again, and they reckoned with for their mal-administrations. God has their hearts in his hands, and their tongues too, and he directs them which way soever he will, Prov. 21:1. So that he has a negative voice in all their resolves, and his counsels shall stand, whatever devices are in men’s hearts. He makes what use he pleases of them, and serves his own purposes and designs by them; though their hearts little think so, Isa. 10:7. Let magistrates consider this and be awed by it; God is with them in the judgment, 2 Chr. 19:6; Deu. 1:17. Let subjects consider this and be comforted with it; for good princes and good judges, who mean well, are under a divine direction, and bad ones, who mean ever so ill, are under a divine restraint. II. A charge given to all magistrates to do good with their power, as they will answer it to him by whom they are entrusted with it, v. 3, 4. 1. They are to be the protectors of those who lie exposed to injury and the patrons of those who want advice and assistance: Defend the poor, who have no money wherewith to make friends or fee counsel, and the fatherless, who, while they are young and unable to help themselves, have lost those who would have been the guides of their youth. Magistrates, as they must be fathers to their country in general, so particularly to those in it who are fatherless. Are they called gods? Herein they must be followers of him, they must be fathers of the fatherless. Job was so, Job 29:12. 2. They are to administer justice impartially, and do right to the afflicted and needy, who, being weak and helpless, have often wrongs done them; and will be in danger of losing all if magistrates do not, ex officio—officially, interpose for their relief. If a poor man has an honest cause, his poverty must be no prejudice to his cause, how great and powerful soever those are that contend with him. 3. They are to rescue those who have already fallen into the hands of oppressors and deliver them. (v. 4): Rid them out of the hand of the wicked. Avenge them of their adversary, Lu. 18:3. These are clients whom there is nothing to be got by, no pay for serving them, no interest by obliging them; yet these are those whom judges and magistrates must concern themselves for, whose comfort they must consult and whose cause they must espouse. III. A charge drawn up against bad magistrates, who neglect their duty and abuse their power, forgetting that God standeth among them, v. 2, 5. Observe, 1. What the sin is they are here charged with; they judge unjustly, contrary to the rules of equity and the dictates of their consciences, giving judgment against those who have right on their side, out of malice and ill-will, or for those who have an unrighteous cause, out of favour and partial affection. To do unjustly is bad, but to judge unjustly is much worse, because it is doing wrong under colour of right; against such acts of injustice there is least fence for the injured and by them encouragement is given to the injurious. It was as great an evil as any Solomon saw under the sun when he observed the place of judgment, that iniquity was there, Eccl. 3:16; Isa. 5:7. They not only accepted the persons of the rich because they were rich, though that is bad enough, but (which is much worse) they accepted the persons of the wicked because they were wicked; they not only countenanced them in their wickedness, but loved them the better for it, and fell in with their interests. Woe unto thee, O land! when thy judges are such as these. 2. What was the cause of this sin. They were told plainly enough that it was their office and duty to protect and deliver the poor; it was many a time given them in charge; yet they judge unjustly, for they know not, neither will they understand. They do not care to hear their duty; they will not take pains to study it; they have no desire to take things right, but are governed by interest, not by reason or justice. A gift in secret blinds their eyes. They know not because they will not understand. None so blind as those that will not see. They have baffled their own consciences, and so they walk on in darkness, not knowing nor caring what they do nor whither they go. Those that walk on in darkness are walking on to everlasting darkness. 3. What were the consequences of this sin: All the foundations of the earth (or of the land) are out of course. When justice is perverted what good can be expected? The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved, as the psalmist speaks in a like case, Ps. 75:3. The miscarriages of public persons are public mischiefs.

Verses 6-8 We have here, I. Earthly gods abased and brought down, v. 6, 7. The dignity of their character is acknowledged (v. 6): I have said, You are gods. They have been honoured with the name and title of gods. God himself called them so in the statute against treasonable words Ex. 22:28, Thou shalt not revile the gods. And, if they have this style from the fountain of honour, who can dispute it? But what is man, that he should be thus magnified? He called them gods because unto them the word of God came, so our Saviour expounds it (Jn. 10:35); they had a commission from God, and were delegated and appointed by him to be the shields of the earth, the conservators of the public peace, and revengers to execute wrath upon those that disturb it, Rom. 13:4. All of them are in this sense children of the Most High. God has put some of his honour upon them, and employs them in his providential government of the world, as David made his sons chief rulers. Or, "Because I said, You are gods, you have carried the honour further than was intended and have imagined yourselves to be the children of the Most High,’’ as the king of Babylon (Isa. 14:14), I will be like the Most High, and the king of Tyre (Eze. 28:2), Thou hast set thy heart as the heart of God. It is a hard thing for men to have so much honour put upon them by the hand of God, and so much honour paid them, as ought to be by the children of men, and not to be proud of it and puffed up with it, and so to think of themselves above what is meet. But here follows a mortifying consideration: You shall die like men. This may be taken either, 1. As the punishment of bad magistrates, such as judged unjustly, and by their misrule put the foundations of the earth out of course. God will reckon with them, and will cut them off in the midst of their pomp and prosperity; they shall die like other wicked men, and fall like one of the heathen princes (and their being Israelites shall not secure them anymore than their being judges) or like one of the angels that sinned, or like one of the giants of the old world. Compare this with that which Elihu observed concerning the mighty oppressors in his time. Job 34:26, He striketh them as wicked men in the open sight of others. Let those that abuse their power know that God will take both it and their lives from them; for wherein they deal proudly he will show himself above them. Or, 2. As the period of the glory of all magistrates in this world. Let them not be puffed up with their honour nor neglect their work, but let the consideration of their mortality be both mortifying to their pride and quickening to their duty. "You are called gods, but you have no patent for immortality; you shall die like men, like common men; and like one of them, you, O princes! shall fall.’’ Note, Kings and princes, all the judges of the earth, though they are gods to us, are men to God, and shall die like men, and all their honour shall be laid in the dust. Mors sceptra ligonibus aequat—Death mingles sceptres with spades. II. The God of heaven exalted and raised high, v. 8. The psalmist finds it to little purpose to reason with these proud oppressors; they turned a deaf ear to all he said and walked on in darkness; and therefore he looks up to God, appeals to him, and begs of him to take unto himself his great power: Arise, O God! judge the earth; and, when he prays that he would do it, he believes that he will do it: Thou shalt inherit all nations. This has respect, 1. To the kingdom of providence. God governs the world, sets up and puts down whom he pleases; he inherits all nations, has an absolute dominion over them, to dispose of them as a man does of his inheritance. This we are to believe and to comfort ourselves with, that the earth is not given so much into the hands of the wicked, the wicked rulers, as we are tempted to think it is, Job 9:24. But God has reserved the power to himself and overrules them. In this faith we must pray, "Arise, O God! judge the earth, appear against those that judge unjustly, and set shepherds over thy people after thy own heart.’’ There is a righteous God to whom we may have recourse, and on whom we may depend for the effectual relief of all that find themselves aggrieved by unjust judges. 2. To the kingdom of the Messiah. It is a prayer for the hastening of that, that Christ would come, who is to judge the earth, and that promise is pleaded, that God shall give him the heathen for his inheritance. Thou, O Christ! shalt inherit all nations, and be the governor over them, Ps. 2:8; 22:28. Let the second coming of Christ set to-rights all these disorders. There are two words with which we may comfort ourselves and one another in reference to the mismanagements of power among men: one is Rev. 19:6, Hallelujah, the Lord God omnipotent reigneth; the other is Rev. 22:20, Surely, I come quickly.

any thoughts?
 
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SavedByGrace3

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LivingWorship said:
Um didaskalos....
Blessings everyone, and may the Lord open our eyes. If these posts are wrong may they fall on deaf ears.

Pardon me... did someone say something? ;)
 
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Apologetic

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All is relative?

no, it isn't. TRUTH isn't relative. There is ONE truth, and His name is Jesus, and He's given His truth to the Bible.

WOF, or the "word of faith" movement is not only the four points there, it's also a certain spectre of "manifestations" of spirits. these manifestations were first discovered in Hindu and other pagan religions. they were considered the work of unclean spirits until the 1900s. yet now all of a sudden, they're called the work of God by the WOF.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Apologetic said:
All is relative?

no, it isn't. TRUTH isn't relative. There is ONE truth, and His name is Jesus, and He's given His truth to the Bible.

WOF, or the "word of faith" movement is not only the four points there, it's also a certain spectre of "manifestations" of spirits. these manifestations were first discovered in Hindu and other pagan religions. they were considered the work of unclean spirits until the 1900s. yet now all of a sudden, they're called the work of God by the WOF.
This is a new one bro...
spirits of hinduism?
 
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LivingWorship

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Thank you LynneClomina... the "gods" are in fact the leaders, the authority as I said in my earlier posts... it was NOT a blanket reference to society or humanity. Furthermore it wasn't the common people that Jesus was addressing at that moment, the commoners loved Jesus... it was His discreditors... it was the elite. The LEADERSHIP of the then church.

We are not little gods, otherwise any of us potentially could have died on the cross. I realise you're saying that we are gods NOW not pre-redemption, but that cheapens the Cross of Christ, because that means He has empowered us so much that we are now capable of saving ourselves... not true... we can't save ourselves, only God's faithfulness working in us, our trust in Jesus gets us through this problem. BTW Andrew the much more refers to grace, and victory over sin. Where sin abounds grace abounds much more. Don't make more out of it than it is.

PM Marquette, I say it again, just because the persecuted church don't meet in a glitzy hall, with a top-notch band and a preacher dripping in gold... does that make them any less of a church? When will we stop and realise that the church is the PEOPLE!!!! Here in the Western World we think it's all got to be tied to the church... in Peter and John's day did they have money? Didn't Petey say "silver or gold I don't have"? But they still had an awesome ministry. If this is the way Western Christianity is going then we've lost the plot. I'm not saying to throw all your money away but I'm saying that we don't NEED it and if we don't have it that doesn't mean God can't use you... your argument therefore means that to be a success in ministry you must be a successful businessman or be born with wealth... was Jesus a success by that barometer?

(sigh) why does everyone seem to think that to live in abundance that means to filthy rich? If Jesus came to bring life in abundance then why were the apostles poor? moreover why was He poor? The more you have the more you want... if we are abundant then shouldn't there be a big sense of CONTENTMENT? God can bless with wealth - NO DRAMA WITH THAT! But to suggest it's available for us all as a blanket blessing is nothing more than a LIE.

PM, persecution is NOT synonomous with poverty but do you really think we can even compare our "persecution" with the horrors our brothers in the predominantly 3rd world endure? As yet I haven't been flogged, tortured, starved, or electrocuted for the gospel. Comparing apples with oranges bro.

No God wasn't confused when He spoke about moving mountains but you seem to forget that faith is what pleases God so therefore doesn't it ensue that we should use faith for God-pleasing actions? If we are using faith for selfish reasons then the chances of God gaining glory begin to slim... the context was healing, not even provision (although God is our provider - that's in the Word) and healing is the kindness of God which leads us to repentance - in other words the motivation has to be to glorify God, not to get all the gold in the world. And before you say that's glorifying to God why would Jesus say to the rich fool that him selling his possessions would please the Father? And all those examples were OT dude. As I said prior the focus of blessing in the NT is SPIRITUAL - Paul did not say we have access to all PHYSICAL BLESSINGS... but SPIRITUAL ONES.

And one last thing, if wealth was a requirement for ministry, it would be granted to every Christian (self-evident answer to that one) and it would be in the Word. But 2 Tim 3:16 simply says the only equipment we need for ministry is ALL SCRIPTURE. Since it's impossible to please God without faith, that's another given. God anoints so that's a fair call. Our purpose is in Christ so I guess that's true... and God births vision BUT you won't need it to minister to people... money - OOPS! Sorry, can't accept that answer. No where in the NT does it say money is an ingredient to ministry.

No no no Andy, the Christians in China are most effective not simply because they are poor or persecuted. They have sought first the kingdom of God, put the little they have to one side and sought the Lord. I guess it's easier to put your hope in the Lord when you face trial, you have little to live for in the natural. But that doesn't diminish the point and it doesn't diminish the power of God unto salvation! I never said it was because they suffer, but it's observed that while they suffer the church is growing. You forgot the first part of that verse... they are not ashamed of the gospel... so they unlock the power of the gospel. Western Christianity either preaches a watered down gospel or no gospel at all so it's little wonder the church is drying up.

Andrew you say you are using scripture... the whole doctrine appears to be resting on that Psalm... if you read the above comentary it might open your eyes... and if my comment on the growth of the church is subjective, well let's do the maths... if 20000 a week from to Christ in a nation of say 1.3 billion... move that across to say the USA and at the same rate there should be 4615 for a nation of approx 300 million... so is this still subjective? A population as large as China's would deliver a statistically unbiased result because of the HUGE number of people involved. Had I been referring to my tiny homeland your subjective argument may be right. But if you still don't believe here is but one article on that very subject.

http://www.chinapartner.org/Pages/church.html

Hate to admit it but Apologetic is 100% spot on the mark, read up some of your apologetics sites such as deceptioninthechurch.com and letusreason.org and see what these learned Christian men - many who are pentecostal - say on this topic. The mindless laughter and so on is largely derived from mysticism which interestingly disengages the mind. While I"m personally for tongues, going beyond that defeats the Godly purpose of the SOUND MIND.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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LivingWorship said:
Thank you LynneClomina... the "gods" are in fact the leaders, the authority as I said in my earlier posts...
Lynne,
This person really has no idea what he is talking about. He is just parroting things he has read or heard from heresy hunters and heresy hunter sites.
If you want to know what WOF teaches, then do what you have done and ask them: and they will tell you. Most of what you are reading on the negative here is so badly twisted and taken out of context that it is really not even worth responding to.
Ask yourself this, when you listen to those of us who are WOF, do you get the impression that we are money mongering heretics who are trying to lead you away from Jesus? Have any of us tried to do this?
Listen to your heart sister and the Lord will tell you the truth.
Blessings
Didy
 
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victoryword

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Apologetic said:
All is relative?

no, it isn't. TRUTH isn't relative. There is ONE truth, and His name is Jesus, and He's given His truth to the Bible.

WOF, or the "word of faith" movement is not only the four points there, it's also a certain spectre of "manifestations" of spirits. these manifestations were first discovered in Hindu and other pagan religions. they were considered the work of unclean spirits until the 1900s. yet now all of a sudden, they're called the work of God by the WOF.
Well, now we have a new accusation on us - HINDUISM!!!

We have been called gnostics, new agers, Christian Science copycats (and other metaphysical cults), Mormons, anti-trinitarians, Third degree masons, Pelagians, and many other things. Now we can add Hinduism to the list.

Now, if you are supposed to be an "apologist" which is what I gather from your username, tell me something: why is it that so called "apologists nowadays would rather INSULT, make false comparison, use "guilt by association" tactics rather than debate a belief on the Scriptures alone? I really believe that what you have done in accusing us of Hinduism is demonic and devilish. But that's just my opinion.

Now, if you think we are Hindus then the burden of proof is on you. Show us how we might be twisting Scripture in order to promote Hindu practices.

One more note: Any theoloical system can be made to look guilty by associating it with something heretical. This is a common practice by heresy hunters who cannot take a BIBLE and make their point with that alone.
 
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orthotomeo

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Perhaps I should start a new thread on this since I don't want to distract from the conversation at hand. But I'll be brief.

If the Christian's original sin nature was wiped out at salvation, and if sins now come from the physical body itself (which I assume is what you refer to as "the flesh"), does that not demand our physical bodies themselves are sinful, even without the old sin nature?

I won't address "the world," since that can only give the Christian endless temptations to sin but not MAKE them sin, which was the point of my question.

I'm not trying to complicate this issue, but it is one that's vitally important to us all.

I'm simply intrigued by the varied - and to my mind, unsatisfactory - explanations of why we all still sin when our old sin nature is (allegedly) gone.

Thanks again,

o.
 
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victoryword

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LivingWorship said:
1)Jesus died spiritually... hang on a minute wasn't He born of spirit? How can HE be born again when He had the Spirit on him WELL BEFORE HIS DEATH?! If you don't believe he was born of spirit, what about the synagogue... "the Spirit of the Lord has anointed me..." He said today you see it fulfilled! Not three years, not tomorrow - TODAY!
Whether one agrees with the "born again Jesus" thing or not, one should seek to understand the Scriptures used by some of its advocates that bring them to this conclusion. Acts 13:33-34 says:



[font=Times New Roman, fantasy]God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.[/font]


According to the Strong's Dictionary, this word means "to regenerate -: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, and conceive." The Amplified Bible says it this way, "You are my Son; today I have begotten You [*caused You to arise, to be born; formally shown You to be the Messiah by the resurrection]." There are other passages that are used to support this premise. Whether you agree or disagree is not the concern. Can you at least try to understand where they are coming from and can you SCRIPTURALLY refute it?

LivingWorship said:
Didn't He say on the Cross "it is FINISHED?" Why would He need to die a spiritual death if it was finished there? He can't be God if He didn't know, and if He lied then He sinned, making the spotless Lamb sacrifice VOID. This means that ANYONE could have been the sacrifice. If as some WOF teaches (copeland and Hinn included) say Jesus took on the nature of Satan - this makes Jesus either a liar or the devil, since there is NO evil on God just the same as there is no good in the devil. This is reincarnation... questions anyone?
Regardless of what you think, if you do not believe that Jesus died a spiritual death then you are in the MINORITY. I can give you a list of quotes of many throughout the ages who believe that Matthew 27:26 is understood that Jesus died a "spiritual death" due to separation from the Father. Some present day so called apologists obviously have not read Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Spurgeon, or the many others. These same people will laud them as heros but then chastize the Faith Movement.

However, it doesn't matter. Scriptures such as Matt. 27:46, 2 Cor. 5:21, Gal. 3:13, Isa. 59:1, and Eph. 2:1-5 can make the case for Jesus having suffered both physically and spiritually for our sins.

The "It is Finished" came AFTER the "My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" So why would the be a dispute of JDS? Even the meaning of "It is Finished" is a debatable subject that would take a different thread to discuss.

LivingWorship said:
JESUS did not die spiritually; if He was being tortured in hell then it must have been by God, since Satan's not there yet (isn't Hell the RESTING place for Satan and his angels? Satans' domain is here on earth!). Ps 139 also says that the Holy Spirit is over Hell as well as being over Heaven. Atonement was set in Genesis 3, the blood sacrifce of a sinless creature, and because Jesus is God, His sacrifice is once for all and His physical death is enough - PERIOD.
If you say so, but your saying so doesn't make it FACT. You have your own "prooftexts" and so do the WoFers. The Word does not contradict itself, so when you can show me how the WoFers are interpretting Scriptures we use incorrectly then I might consider whether your above diatribe has any validity. Right now it has none. Psalm 139 simply says talks about the omnipresence of God and not who is in charge of what. This misue of Scripture by you already makes me wonder how much you really know.

LivingWorship said:
2)Little Gods... mate Hinn, Copeland and co continue to say that we are "little gods", Hinn even said that Adam was so much like God he could teleport himself to the moon... if it were in the Word I'd believe it, but as yet it's not in my Bible. This would make Christianity a polytheistic religion, somuch for God being Alpha Omega, the one true God. I would expect some of Luther's original teaching to be wrong because he was at the start of the Reformation, so it's possible to suggest he didn't get everything right. And as much as I love Narnia, C.S. Lewis was off base himself, so I wouldn't go listening to a men tell me about God when he equates the Word of God with a myth.
You are very opinionated, aren't you? Opinions are NOT enough to debate a topic. As Andrew showed earlier, the foundation for teaching what is being taught concerning the "ye are gods" is in Scripture. People want to use the little watered down "that just mean 'judges'" approach. Well, what are they ever going to do with these two other facts:

1. Though we capitalize the phrase "Son of God" when speaking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to distinguish between the "sons of God" in reference to us as God's offspring, the Greek word tekna is used for both and makes no distinction.

2. God HImself said that we were "partakers of His divine nature" (1 Pet. 1:3, 4).

3. God Himself said that "as he is in this world, so are we." (1 John 4:17)

While I am not so crazy about the phrase "little gods", Luther, Lewis, the Church Fathers, The Eastern Orthodox Church, and the WoF have caught on to something that powerless Christianity knows nothing about, and it is based on God's Word.

LivingWorship said:
3)Prosperity... my pet PEEVE. I don't care who invented this doctrine, the fact WOF is preaching it suggests their leaders don't read their Bible, or at least enough. In the OT there was no Holy Spirit available to all like in the New. God's favour was therefore shown in the physical... Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Solomon - ALL and more still were blessed with monetary wealth. Flip into the second half of the Book and we discover that Jesus sends the Comforter, available to ALL. Now if we can be given the greatest possible blessing which is eternal (salvation, holy spirit, eternal life) why would God need to promise temporal blessings?
That is dispensational poppycock. I am not against dispensational teaching as a whole, but my Bible tells me, For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. (2 Cor. 5:20). Furthermore, All Scripture, not just some of it, is profitable for me (2 Tim. 3:16). So you can be selective in what you think God has for the church today vice what He had back then, but I'll take the "all

LivingWorship said:
I'm not saying God can't provide, or God doesn't will for us to be wealthy... but he says that wealth makes us puffed up with pride (RICH YOUNG MAN: humble yourself to enter the kingdom of God). If poverty is uhbiblical as a blessing why then could Paul say he was "poor, yet making many rich"? Why did James say "Has not God chosen the poor of THIS WORLD to be RICH in FAITH and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" Didn't Jesus say the poor/poor in spirit will inherit the Kingdom? And didn't Jesus have "no place to rest His head"... the Scriptures speak for themselves... and by that don't mix OT with NT theology... this is the WOF Prosperity doctrine, a mix of old covenant and new covenant... eye for an eye was replaced by turning the other cheek... interestingly Hinn, Crouch, Howard-Browne and the like have made death threats and curses public on TV or in the service. Men of God, shame really.
The New Testament tells us that Jesus fulfilled the law and so we are no longer under the law of Moses but the law of faith. Not once did the NT ever tell us that those blessings and promises under the Old Covenant were done away with. Again, you are promoting dispensational poppycock.

While I am not a Calvinist and despise Calvinism, I have to agree with A. W. Pink when he says about certain dispensationalists: "These mutilators of the Word tell us that all of the Old Testament from Genesis 12 onwards belongs entirely to Israel after the flesh, and that none of its precepts (as such) are binding upon those who are members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, nor may any of the promises found therein be legitimately appropriated by them. And this, be it duly noted, without a single word to that effect by either the Lord or any of His Apostles, and despite the use which the Holy Spirit makes of the earliest Scriptures in every part of the New Testament." (A Study of Dispensationalism)

I am not against dispensationalism but I am strongly against your version of it.

LivingWorship said:
4) Faith "Force"... Ok, faith is being sure of what is hoped for... faith is being certain of what we do not see... without faith it is impossible to please GOD, there endeth the lesson. When will we realise that faith is all about God and not us?! Is it wrong to ask for God's provision, NO. Is it wrong to seek God for OUR pleasure... perhaps. He can and does supply ou NEEDS but not necessarily our WANTS.
God has not only promised to supply our needs, but to also give us our DESIRES:

"Delight thyself also in the Lord; and he shall give thee the DESIRES of thine heart." (Ps. 37:4)

"Therefore I say unto you, what things soever ye DESIRE when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them." (Mark 11:24)

"If you maintain a living communion with me and my words are at home in you, I command you to ask, at once, something for yourself, whatever your heart desires, and it will become yours." (John 15:7; The New Testament: An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest)

A lot more can be cited, but this should be sufficient to prove you absolutely WRONG!

LivingWorship said:
Yet all the time I hear people saying in WOF how God wants to bless you, and Hinn, Copeland and co continually brag about their posh homes and cars and wealth, and how God blesses them, hmmm... and yes, VW, Hinn and co have said on numerous occasions that FAITH IS A FORCE, it's not a misquotation. Faith as a force makes it to be a force that delivers unto us a weak God trapped by His own system, not so.
Where in my post did I say that the phrase, "Faith is a Force" is a misquotation? I simply said that the WoF was not the first ones to use it. As a matter of fact it was a common saying in the late 1800s and early 1900s demonstrating the power that God gives in response to believing prayer. I could cite many examples of this but I believe Spurgeon will be sufficient to prove my point: "Many grand deeds have also been born of faith, for faith works wonders. Faith in its natural form is an all-prevailing force. God gives salvation to our faith because He has touched the secret spring of all our emotions and actions." (The Triumph of Faith in a Believer's Life)

LivingWorship said:
POSITIVE CONFESSION... do we get sick? Do we feel tired? Do we sin? YES!!To suggest that by PC we avoid the above is ludicrous, about as stupid as saying this light is green when it's red, it just makes NO SENSE. I have heard WOF teachers claim they are no longer sinners... this is a problem because 1 Jn 1:8 says that if we say "we have no sin we deceive ourselves".
You really do not understand "positive confession" do you? PC is NOT a denial of reality, it is simply an AFFIRMATION of what God says in His Word, whether it is affirming what He says about us, our situation, or what belongs to us. The circumstances are real, but what God says is just as real. We simply replace circumstancial truth with God's truth. Positive confession is not meant to deny the situation, it is demonstrating from our lips faith in God to change the situation.

LivingWorship said:
DEAD MAN WALKING? being of the WOF camp you'd no doubt be familiar with Bonnke claiming that a dead guy was raised from the dead ON THE PLATFORM. Now I don't doubt the Lord's miraculous ability but apparently Mr Hinn does. In a service at church he bragged about how a dead pastor in Africa got up on the platform, and I believe he said we was there... then on the news or some Yankee current affairs show (sorry I have video footage but my memory's sketchy) that he didn't see it, he had heard of it, he wasn't sure of it's authenticity. Lie? Cover up? Did it really happen? Maybe... was Hin there.. seems he doesn't know.

INDULGENCES? Copeland has been quoted as saying "if you heal them they will pay anything".. so have se so cheapened divine healing that it's all for us to get rich? Please, please has anyone remembered Romans 2:4 - GOD'S KINDNESS BRINGS US TO REPENTANCE!!! Anything else is not important... healing is a miracle, Acts 4 says a miracle is God's kindness, Romans 2 says God's kindness is to lead us to repentance, forgivenesss and all that entails being a Christian... this does NOT include being wealthy so far as God NEVER promised it for us... didn't He say we will drink HIS CUP? That's a cup of suffering bretheren...
So doctrinal truth is supposedly disputed by what you consider false claims to the miraculous. Below you claim to be a Pentecostal. Read up on Pentecostal history. I know that today's Pentecostals want to stay in good standing with the Evangelical community, but in it's early days it had it's own controversies and excesses and unproven claims. Should I cite them for you? Should we question the credibility of the Pentecostal movement because of these things?

LivingWorship said:
I am a pentecostal myself and I believe in the Holy Spirit and His power, but to use Him like a tap for our every WANT is a bit much for me to stomach, I just can't see how people can fall for this erroneous doctrine. Sorry this is so long-winded... but there is still too much to cover in this message so please everyone check out the following links, there's some stuff that's just amazing to imagine are going on in the name of Jesus. And Victory, I'm not having a go at you, I pray God would open your eyes and that you are set free from this heretical teaching. God bless you.
You are having a go at me, but unfortunately I have proven you to be totally wrong and have shown that you do not know what you are talking about. May God open YOUR eyes to the foolishness of heresy hunting. And do not refer me to anymore of those ridiculous webpages because I have read many of them and like your post, they are full of DUNG.

If you insist on reading that kind of garabage, may I recommend you to this one:

http:///www.victoryword.100megspop2.com

Take care now, y'hear? :D
 
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orthotomeo

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Great. Somebody just HAD to go and use the "D" word.

As a dispensationalist (I hate labels but what you gonna do), you could have chosen a better commentator on disp'ism than A.W. Pink. I won't bother picking apart what he wrote.

Suffice to say, being a Covenant theologian and champion of Calvinism in its most abominable form, Pink never saw the distinction between Christ's teachings "according to the flesh" (2 Cor 5:16) and His later teachings "according to the revelation of the mystery" (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:8-9). Disp'ism (consistent disp'ism, anyway) takes this blessed truth into account.

o.
 
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Apologetic

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didaskalos said:
You are so correct VW!
It is tragic that the only things most folks know about WOF are what you listed. But WOF is much much more! These issues, because they are controversial, do get the most play. But they are far from being the core teachings of WOF. Thanks for the work you have done, and I am planning to visit your website and create a link from my own to yours!

Is it tragic? Aren't those four things listed the very CORE and ROOT of WOF? Yes they are.

Is it tragic that lies and heresies in the Church are exposed, so people get the choice of turning away from a wrong path?

Is truth what the WOF make it to be or what Jesus and the Bible teaches?

Yes, it is so much more, you're right, but those four things there are the four core things, and they are lies. They are heresies wrapped up in truth.

Open up your eyes! How long will you not choose side? You can either be on God's side or on the devil's. There is no contra-biblical teaching that isn't a lie and a heresy.

Alas, falling into heresy is the fate of this unbelieving world. Check out Jesus' and John's revelation's end time prophecies.

Then let Scripture interpret Scripture. Search for God in His word, and you will find Him. Those who value the Truth of God will find it.
 
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victoryword

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Apologetic said:
Is it tragic? Aren't those four things listed the very CORE and ROOT of WOF? Yes they are.
No they are NOT! My exact words before I listed them were, "I think some [critics] would distinguish Word-Faith with the following:" I said that this is what the CRITIC claims are the factors that distinguish us from the rest of Christianity, and then I set out to prove that premise totally wrong by citing others who taught similar doctrines.

Apologetic said:
Is it tragic that lies and heresies in the Church are exposed, so people get the choice of turning away from a wrong path?
It is more tragic that heresy hunters lie and misrepresent others and confuse such with "exposing the truth" and "defending the faith." Most heresy hunters actually stray away from normal Christian teaching but they are able to deceive others into thinking that it is THEY who present the "orthodox" view. Self-deception is the worst kind and heresy hunters have it big time.

Apologetic said:
Is truth what the WOF make it to be or what Jesus and the Bible teaches?
I can ask the exact same question of you and other heresy hunters.

Apologetic said:
Yes, it is so much more, you're right, but those four things there are the four core things, and they are lies. They are heresies wrapped up in truth.
Your saying so does not make it true. Making false comparisons to well known cults do not make it true either. If that were so then all Arminians are actuaklly Pelagians or Roman Catholics and all Calvinists are Muslims. Only the Bible gives truth, a book you seem to be unfamiliar with though you mention it in your post.

Apologetic said:
Open up your eyes! How long will you not choose side? You can either be on God's side or on the devil's. There is no contra-biblical teaching that isn't a lie and a heresy.
My eyes were opened long ago. That's why I am not buying the garbage that you are trying to sell here.

Apologetic said:
Alas, falling into heresy is the fate of this unbelieving world. Check out Jesus' and John's revelation's end time prophecies.
I did. I also checked out Jesus' treaction to the Pharisees. That is why I am responding to you as I am.

Apologetic said:
Then let Scripture interpret Scripture. Search for God in His word, and you will find Him. Those who value the Truth of God will find it.
Try citing some first and perhaps I might believe that you actually know some and we can actually have a discussion based on Scripture rather than your baseless opinions that have no foundation in TRUTH.
 
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orthotomeo said:
Great. Somebody just HAD to go and use the "D" word.

As a dispensationalist (I hate labels but what you gonna do), you could have chosen a better commentator on disp'ism than A.W. Pink. I won't bother picking apart what he wrote.
I have no problems with Disp theology. Many WoFers are dispensationalists, including the late Ken Hagin. I just have a problem with the appeal to dispensationalism when a person wants to make another out to be a heretic. When a person says, "That promise is NOT for today" then it is not based on Scripture but rather on a bias theological interpretation. That is why I attack the way in which a person is attempting to refute a belief.

orthotomeo said:
Suffice to say, being a Covenant theologian and champion of Calvinism in its most abominable form, Pink never saw the distinction between Christ's teachings "according to the flesh" (2 Cor 5:16) and His later teachings "according to the revelation of the mystery" (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:8-9). Disp'ism (consistent disp'ism, anyway) takes this blessed truth into account.

o.
Pink had a whole lot that I could never agree with. Ever read his book, The Sovereignty of God? Not worth lining the kitty litter box with. However, he also had some good things to say. I don't agree with all of Pink's conclusions on Disp theology, but he did express the one problem I have with those who abuse this system of BIble interpretation. Thus the reason I quoted him.
 
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LivingWorship

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VW please, you sound hot under the collar... isn't it just like WOF teachers to duck for cover and say "why criticise" "you're judging" - but we are called to speak the truth in love. I wish no harm or ill on the WOF teachers or whatever... I do however pray that God brings down the church who speaks anything outside of the Word of God. If WOF is outside (you know my stand, make up your own mind) of it then the day will come... and hey that means if they repent - that is if they are teaching heresy - then God will forgive, I'm sure of it! And if the Pentecostals are wrong then so be it... and the Baptists, Episcopolians... whoever... if they preach heresy then they will answer to God for it. You have only proven that you can't take it when the Word conflicts with your own belief system. There was no need to carry on like you just did but hey... on we proceed. You didn't prove me wrong and I'm not going to go over all this needlessly, but I will politely point out the Word on this one...

Mate you can't be a Christian if you doubt the resurrection, of course I believe that! But to say that Jesus died spiritually makes the Cross null and void because He cannot be God and die spiritually, it's just not possible. Or you could also imply Jesus didn't have the Spirit till the resurrection... that makes Him just a man and again the cross is void, we are lost. Case closed.

Hey if I'm wrong then you find me the scripture where it says Jesus was tortured in hell! You find me where the word of God says that satan is lord of hell! Your references are open to interpretation, and you have yours... I believe that Jesus didn't magically become sin! The sins of the world were, if you like, imputed or transferred over to Him. He wasn't sin itself, He definitely wasn't the devil - that day will come when the antichrist comes to claim he died for us... O and if Jesus holds the words of truth and life, what's debatable about "IT IS FINISHED" then?

Powerless Christianity, hey? So I suppose the Christians of the persecuted church are powerless too, hey... mate read up on church world affairs... this is where the REAL power is, and they DON'T equate themselves with God... they practice somthing all of us Western Christians could do a little more... it's called humility. So yeah, 20000 new converts a week is powerless, fair enough, I'll certainly ask God to make me powerless then, hey

OK ok, the "little gods" thing, yes we will share heaven, yes we will share ruling earth, yes we are now grafted into His chosen... NO WE ARE NOT GODS. I really couldn't care less what other people say even the "fathers" of the faith. Even great men are fallible. My only concern is the word of God. If Kenneth Copeland starts preaching evolution at you, will you believe it? Just because other leaders say it makes it no less credible... we need to find our own answers via the Word and the Lord speaking to us.

Umm dude what are you talking about now? I never disputed that a dead man walked, I never disputed that a man can be healed... I said, and please READ IT THIS TIME:
1- Benny Hinn first enthused, then backed down quietly. So he LIED.
2- Kenneth Copeland wishes to take a mechanism to lead people to repentance (kindness) and use it to make money
You tell me where I disputed theology?

O man, VW you really need to read the Scriptures in context - God grants desires when they are lining up with the Word... how do I know this? In all the examples you cited they mention that to receive the BLESSING there is the CONDITION, and the condition is to delight yourself in the Lord, to have close communion with the Lord. In that context this means we are becoming more like Christ, and our will more reflects His. In this way our desires are pure and will be to glorify the kingdom of God. What's more important to you... a $500,000 home or saving someone you love... which brings more glory to God... food for thought.

PC - do you mean to tell me then by claiming you are not a sinner you will eventually not be one IN THIS LIFE???

Dispensationalism (yawn) - yah man, believe it if you want... I guess that God's saying yes and amen to you stoning your neighbour for them commiting adultery. Good stuff.

FAITH A FORCE - umm dude you said "critics twist this to...(mean) a force like in Star Wars" No of course you didn't say that...

No VW don't even think about questioning Pentecostals, part of your movement is derived from us so I suggest you do no further damage to the WOF movement. On second thoughts, feel free to question us... I am open. I don't pretend we are perfect.. just forgiven. And unlike the barrage I received, I will not abuse you. You are entitled to your opinion, although I'll be frank and I'll say that WOF doesn't sit too easy with me. I really mean this VW, God bless... the truth will set you free.
 
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