What is with all the hate on Ellena White

[woobadooba]

Edit: This is not the time for this.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I don't have a lot of personal experience with the spirit of prophecy. I have read the Great Controversy and the Desire of Ages. I certainly can tell when I read her writings that she had the influence of the Holy Spirit on her life. I wept at times when I read the two books I mentioned, especially the scenes of Christ death and His suffering for my sins. The closing scenes of earths history in the Great Controversy made it almost impossible to put the book down. I certainly don't see how anyone can read her writings and denigrate her like they do. This has to be an attack from the enemy of all of our souls.

 

[Dathen]

You're book sounds interesting Dasdream.

 

[woobadooba]

I think 'hate' is too strong a word to use here in describing what people really feel about her.

You need to understand that many people have abused the writings of Ellen White, thus using them as a means to control, demean, and condemn others. Those who are crying out against her writings have been hurt, and are obviously very angry as a result of this, especially since they're now discovering that the things that they have been condemned for are either no longer applicable to the times in which we live, are not even Biblical, or both.

This has led me to a very serious fork in the road, so to speak. I'm still trying to reconcile how a prophet of God could identify a teaching as being inspired by God while it's clearly something that doesn't agree with what the Holy Scriptures say.

For example, in Christ's Object Lessons Ellen White declares, "The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world." Now how could she get away with doing this? Christ was very explicit about what He meant. Who gave her the authority to alter what He had said, and thus attribute meaning to it that He had never expressed?

Another example is when she interprets Zech 13:6 as referring to Christ. It is evident from the context of this passage that this is not a reference to the Messiah.

The issue here has nothing to do with perfection of character, but truth. How could we go on accepting the prophetic role of a person who claims something to be inspired by God which doesn't agree with the Bible?

This is a very serious matter. Do we just ignore this, and thus pretend that it isn't there? Do we try to cover it up? This seems to be what is happening. And this really bothers me, because it speaks of a church leadership that isn't willing to grow in the knowledge of truth, or admit to being wrong about anything. It is a movement which suggests that it has arrived, and that everything that is in opposition to it is not of God.

As a result of this I'm not sure at this point that I can remain an SDA. I've been an SDA for about ten years now, and feel like I've been lied to. This really bothers me! And I want answers!

Please Note: for those who are also searching for answers, don't just rule something out as being false until you study it out for yourself and discover it to be false. At this point I really don't know what to believe about Ellen White in terms of her prophetic role. I do know one thing however, it is evident to me that she was a godly woman, and has shared wonderful truths throughout her writings that have changed the lives of many people in a miraculous way in bringing them closer to God. No devil could do such a thing. So I do believe that she was a godly woman.

The one who is open-minded about these things and serious about wanting to find the truth will always remember to ask for references to investigate ideas in context. Here is a link to the writings of Ellen White: http://www.gilead.net/egw/index.htm

 

[Sophia7]

I share many of your questions, Wooba. At this point, I'm not sure what to believe about Ellen White either.

 

[Dathen]

I believe her 100%. Because she agree's with the bible and passes the Biblical test for a prophet.

 

[Sunrunner]

Sophia, Woob, I'll look for an answer if I get a chance this weekend.

To me, Ellen White's ministry is like God's "mark" on his Remnant... something that sets us apart from the "confusion" of Babylon.

 

[Dathen]

Amen!!

 

[woobadooba]

I believe her 100%. Because she agree's with the bible and passes the Biblical test for a prophet.

On everything?

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

For example, in Christ's Object Lessons Ellen White declares, "The field," Christ said, "is the world." But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world." Now how could she get away with doing this? Christ was very explicit about what He meant. Who gave her the authority to alter what He had said, and thus attribute meaning to it that He had never expressed?

Another example is when she interprets Zech 13:6 as referring to Christ. It is evident from the context of this passage that this is not a reference to the Messiah.

How much time have you actually spent testing her writings to see if she agreed with the Bible 100%?

 

[woobadooba]

Sophia, Woob, I'll look for an answer if I get a chance this weekend.

Easier said than done. People who have been in the church for years have yet to come up with something to explain these things.

To me, Ellen White's ministry is like God's "mark" on his Remnant... something that sets us apart from the "confusion" of Babylon.

"mark on his remnant"? This comment really concerns me. You are exalting Ellen White to a position that hasn't been given to her. Whatever happened to the authority of the Holy Scriptures? Even the Bereans didn't just take the Apostles word as truth without testing it by the Holy Scriptures. See Acts 17:11. And whatever happened to the seal of the Holy Spirit as being that which is the mark of true believers? See Eph. 1:13 and 4:30

Where do you find Biblical support for this idea that Ellen White's ministry, or any prophet's ministry for that matter, is the "mark on his [God] remnant"?

Truth is, the remnant will not be identified by accepting a person who is believed to have been a prophet, but by their willingness to keep God's commands and the faith of Jesus Christ. Thus their mark will be the infilling of the Holy Spirit who will show forth His fruits in their words and actions. See Gal. 5:22-25; Rev. 14:12. Thus they will be known by Jesus' love. Jn. 13:34-35.

Everything that has to do with God must be tested and approved by the word of God. Your comment above finds no approval in God's word. Therefore, I can't accept it as truth.

 

[Sunrunner]

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.

The Remnant has the testimony of Jesus.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. We are given foresight into the future, the last days. We've been shown the events of the End Times in the writings of Ellen White.

This is basic Adventism.

 

[woobadooba]

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.

The Remnant has the testimony of Jesus.

"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. We are given foresight into the future, the last days. We've been shown the events of the End Times in the writings of Ellen White.

This is basic Adventism.

This is the kind of response that disturbs me:

1. You didn't address the passages that I shared with you concerning the mark/seal of true believers.

2. You took a passage completely out of context and superimposed meaning on it that the author never intended to convey. In other words, John made it very clear that the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, not that Ellen white, or any particular prophet for that matter is the spirit of prophecy. This is a line that you've been indoctrinated to believe, but it is false.

The true meaning of this passage is that anyone who is to prophesy in the Spirit will bear witness to the teachings of Jesus Christ. And we find the testimony of Jesus Christ in the Holy Scriptures (Jn. 15:26; 2Tim. 3:15-17; Jn. 5:39). This is how the passage is to be understood.

Now then, the question that needs to be addressed is: Does everything that Ellen White taught agree with what Jesus teaches us via the Holy Scriptures?

Moreover, another question to ask is: does one have to be a prophet of God to foster the spirit of prophecy?

Please note: It is important that you look up the passages that I share with you and keep them in their proper context.

 

[Sunrunner]

1. You didn't address the passages that I shared with you concerning the mark/seal of true believers.

I did not say that Ellen White, or a belief in her, is the mark of a true believer. I said that she is a "signal" or "sign" (mark) of God's Church, a way to see the difference between the Adventist Church and the rest of Christianity.

2. You took a passage completely out of context and superimposed meaning on it that the author never intended to convey. In other words, John made it very clear that the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, not that Ellen white, or any particular prophet for that matter is the spirit of prophecy. This is a line that you've been indoctrinated to believe, but it is false.

The true meaning of this passage is that anyone who is to prophesy in the Spirit will bear witness to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is how the passage is to be understood.

Upon reviewing my post, it was not evident that I claimed Ellen White "was" the Spirit of Prophecy. I said that through her ministry we have come to a better understanding of the End Times. We have the essence of prophecy.

Now then, the question that needs to be addressed is: Does everything that Ellen White taught agree with what Jesus teaches us via the Holy Scriptures?

Yes, indeed. Upon reading Zechariah 13:6, I do indeed believe it makes sense for that verse to be talking about Jesus. Out of context? The verse after it is a Messianic prophecy as well.

I believe you're sincere, Woob, and I know you think I, believing in Ellen White's inspiration, am the one who is wrong, but I want you to know that I'm praying you'll find the Truth, whatever that may be.

 

[woobadooba]

I did not say that Ellen White, or a belief in her, is the mark of a true believer. I said that she is a "signal" or "sign" (mark) of God's Church, a way to see the difference between the Adventist Church and the rest of Christianity.

You said that her ministry is "like" God's "mark on the remnant". This is false. The scriptures make it very clear that the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life/church is that which occupies this role.

You can deny that you said this all you want, but you said it.

By the way, even the idea that you shared here is false. The difference is not to be noted in the acceptance of the role of a person (in this case Ellen White) within the church, but in the manifestation of the fruits of the Spirit as described in Gal. 5:22-25 by the members of that church in its totality. Hence, the remnant which keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus Christ (Rev. 14:12).

Again, you are exalting Ellen White to a position that does not belong to her, but to God alone.

Upon reviewing my post, it was not evident that I claimed Ellen White "was" the Spirit of Prophecy. I said that through her ministry we have come to a better understanding of the End Times. We have the essence of prophecy.

But you did say, "This is basic Adventism", and since the SDA church espouses the view that that passage is referring to the role of Ellen White in the church, it is evident that you agree that John was speaking of a literal person as being the spirit of prophecy rather than the message that we find concerning Jesus Christ in the Holy Scriptures.

In fact, this is exactly what you had said:

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. We are given foresight into the future, the last days. We've been shown the events of the End Times in the writings of Ellen White.

Now then, how do you know for sure that what she had said concerning the last days is 100% accurate? And while knowing that she said things that are obviously not in agreement with what the Bible says (as I have shown), how could you trust that what she had said concerning the last days will happen?

And do you think the writings of Ellen White are on par with the Holy Scriptures?

Yes, indeed. Upon reading Zechariah 13:6, I do indeed believe it makes sense for that verse to be talking about Jesus. Out of context? The verse after it is a Messianic prophecy as well.

Did you know that the KJV is not the most accurate translation?

Did you know that the NRSV is actually considered to be more accurate?

Let's look at what each one says:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zec 13:4-6 KJV)

Notice how it speaks of prophets (plural).

Now, look at this:

"On that day the prophets will be ashamed, every one, of their visions when they prophesy; they will not put on a hairy mantle in order to deceive, but each of them will say, "I am no prophet, I am a tiller of the soil; for the land has been my possession since my youth." And if anyone asks them, "What are these wounds on your chest?" the answer will be "The wounds I received in the house of my friends." (Zec 13:4-6 NRSV)

Now do you see the problem that you run into by assuming that this is speaking of one person (Jesus Christ) as having wounds? Truth is, it is referring to the wounds of the prophets. Hence, the reason for the usage of the pronoun "them", as in, "but each of them will say..."

And this is the proper way to look at this passage since more than one person is being referred to according to the context of it.

Incidentally, the "wounds" are noted in the NRSV as being on the chest, not in the hands.

So yes, Ellen White's interpretation of this passage is not correct. In fact, she even superimposes meaning on this passage that denotes an idea that we find no support for in the scriptures. When she speaks of this passage as referring to Jesus, she does it within the context of the questioner being in heaven asking Him where He got His wounds. Thus she inculcates the idea that there will be people in heaven who never knew Jesus. But this is not what this passage is saying to us; rather, this is what Ellen White says it is saying, and she was obviously wrong.

I'm praying you'll find the Truth, whatever that may be.

What makes you think I don't have the truth?

 

[Dasdream]

So because you all don't understand one or two things all of a sudden you feel that she is a liar? Nice. Whether she was a prophet or not is not our place to judge, but the only perfect person to ever step foot on this crappy world was Jesus and it is not fair that we cancel out all of her teaching for one or two little petty mistakes. My book will be getting the same reaction, I am sure many people will say 'this is wrong" ok so? What is your point? is God going to burn me in hell over one little mistake? Yet people are calling me a liar and say that I am not being used by God. Who exactly is in the wrong here?

Anybody can say thay are being used by God and when you think about it, they are. We are all being used by God one way or another, but neither one of us are perfect. Therefore we won't be able to say things perfectly. Ellen like the rest of us was used by God, but she isn't God! She had to of committed sin one time or other, she had her mistakes and miunderstandings as we all do. Regardless who are we to judge? I don't think it is right for us to judge all of her books, teachings and writtings over a few mistakes. Mistakes that aren't even that drastic.

 

[woobadooba]

So because you all don't understand one or two things all of a sudden you feel that she is a liar? Nice. Whether she was a prophet or not is not our place to judge, but the only perfect person to ever step foot on this crappy world was Jesus and it is not fair that we cancel out all of her teaching for one or two little petty mistakes. My6 book will be getting the ame reaction, I am sure many people will say 'this is wrong" ok so? What is your point? is God going to burn me in hell over one little mistake? Yet people are calling me a liar and say that i am not used by God. Who exactly is in thw wrong here?

Anybody can say thay are being used by God and when you think about it, they are. We are all being used by God one way or another, but neither one of us are perfect. Therefore we won't be able to say things perfectly. Ellen like the rest of us was used by God, but she isn't God! She had to of committed sin one time or other, she had her mistakes and miunderstandings as we all do. Regardless who are we to judge? I don't think it is right for us to judge all of her books, teachings and writtings over a few mistakes. Mistakes that aren't even that drastic.

The point here has nothing to do with a mistake, but with the idea that she claimed these ideas to be inspired by God.

Now then, is God the author of confusion? Why would He inspire someone to teach something that is false? Does God make mistakes when communicating His message to His chosen vessels?

Do you realise the implications of your comment?

I don't mean to discourage you, but to encourage you to put more thought into these things.

As for your book, I can't comment on it because I haven't read it. I am willing however, to review it, and offer you any advice on it that may be needed.

 

[woobadooba]

I just want to say something else in response to what Dasdream had said...

No one here is canceling out all of her writings because she had said something that is false. It wouldn't make any sense to do this, since she did in fact say things that are true. In other words, if we were to cancel out all of her writings because she said something that's false, then we would also have to deny those things that she had said which are true. There is no need to do this.

Moreover, it has been said that we shouldn't judge her. Well, we aren't judging her soul, or relationship to God in terms of where she will stand in the day of God's judgment. However, we are encouraged to test those who call themselves prophets of God. See 1Jn. 4:1 And we are to test their teachings by the word of God, as did the Bereans. See Acts 17:11. Too many people these days just accept something as truth because it sounds good, but spend very little time if any at all, testing it (dissecting it), to see if it measures up to what is written in the Holy Scriptures. It is a real shame that people are not as studious as they ought to be.

Now then, I'm not saying that everything that she wrote is worthless. What I am disputing however, is her prophetic gift. As I had said before, I just can't reconcile the idea that a prophet can claim to be inspired by God in teaching something that does not agree with the Holy Scriptures. This just doesn't work with me.

Furthermore, I don't expect a prophet to be perfect in character in order to be a prophet of God. However, I do expect that if that person is making the claim to be inspired by God in what he/she is teaching, then that teaching must agree with what is written in the Holy Scriptures. If it doesn't agree with God's word, then it is false. And if it is false, then that person can't be inspired by God in this way, since God is not the author of confusion, and can not lie.

So it is very obvious that Ellen White in the examples that I have given thus far, inculcated ideas that don't agree with the Holy Scriptures. Yet, these ideas were deemed to be inspired by God. For, she did imply that all of her writings were inspired by God. Sophia provided this evidence in another thread. See her if you need to verify this.

Therefore, with this in mind, how could we agree that she was a prophet of God when it is evident that some of the things that she had said which are believed to be inspired by God, in reference to certain passages in the Bible, do not agree with what the Holy Scriptures are really saying?

I just can't reconcile this. Maybe someone else can. If so, please enlighten me!

 

[woobadooba]

To those who might be discouraged by some of the things that I have shared, please don't be troubled.

Truth is, your faith shouldn't be founded on the words of anyone but Jesus Christ Himself. And His words are expressed in the Holy Scriptures. As I see it, even if Ellen White wasn't a real prophet of God, our church still has more light than any other denomination out there. Therefore, I can't leave it unless God shows me something else that is closer to the complete truth.

Right now we need to stick this thing out and do what we can to promote church growth in the knowledge and character of Jesus Christ. That is what I intend to do.

However, keep in mind that where there is no will to question things, there is no room for growth, or character development in Christ. Thus we must test everything by the Holy Scriptures. The Word of God is our only safeguard against error. Therefore, we must learn to rightly divide it, so that we may see things as they really are, rather than to merely echo what someone else declares them to be. We are to learn to be teachers of the Word, and thinkers, not mere reflectors of other men's thoughts.

Finally, it makes no difference how high a position is which someone holds within the ranks of our church, anyone could be in error. So don't place too much confidence in men; instead, place your implicit trust in Jesus Christ. He will never mislead you! For, He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life!

 

[Dasdream]

well see now you are saying any book that was not written by God is worthless. Have you read all the versions of the Bible? There are lots of different versions of the Bible and in millions of different languages, maybe her version said those things. Either way i don't care, she gives us all a deeper understanding of the Bible and has written many good things. Again I will say that wether or not she was a prophet is not our place to judge. I hope that whoever just read what you typed doesn't pick up my book, because now they won't care to learn and will just pick it up to say "Das is not a man of God" because I say one or two wrong things. I agree with you in that the Bible is the ONLY book we should live by, but there are other books that help you understand more about life and God. My book talks about dealing with peer pressure, dealing with rumors, dealing with "outsiders" etc. These things along with other chapters were not mentioned indepth in the Bible (there where versus though) My book will help people make life easier and get closer to God and that is what I think Ellen was going for, but like all of us she made a few mistakes. Her first mistake was saying she was a prophet, because now she is getting all this heat because of one word. Sad when you think about it.

 

[woobadooba]

well see now you are saying any book that was not written by God is worthless. Have you read all the versions of the Bible? There are lots of different versions of the Bible and in millions of different languages, maybe her version said those things. Either way i don't care, she gives us all a deeper understanding of the Bible and has written many good things. Again I will say that wether or not she was a prophet is not our place to judge. I hope that whoever just read what you typed doesn't pick up my book, because now they won't care to learn and will just pick it up to say "Das is not a man of God" because I say one or two wrong things. I agree with you in that the Bible is the ONLY book we should live by, but there are other books that help you understand more about life and God. My book talks about dealing with peer pressure, dealing with rumors, dealing with "outsiders" etc. These things along with other chapters were not mentioned indepth in the Bible (there where versus though) My book will help people make life easier and get closer to God and that is what I think Ellen was going for, but like all of us she made a few mistakes. Her first mistake was saying she was a prophet, because now she is getting all this heat because of one word. Sad when you think about it.

This response does not deal with the issues that I've raised, but merely ignores the facts.

It is evident to me that I am not going to find what I'm looking for in this forum on this matter.

We are not dealing with typical mistakes here, but with someone who had claimed that what she wrote was inspired by God, and it just so happens that some things that she wrote do not agree with what is written in the Holy Scriptures.

Now then, we are either going to take an honest look at these things, or ignore them. It is evident to me at this point that most people don't want to take an honest look at these things, but merely want to identify them as mistakes, or try to justify them by stating that it isn't our place to judge.

God does not inspire mistakes, but perfection.

Either Ellen White was a prophet or not. The only way that we are going to see if she was is by testing what she wrote. This is what I am doing, and you are telling me that I am wrong for doing this. Are you following the counsel of the Bible by telling me that it isn't my place to judge? See 1Jn. 4:1