What is true/truth?

[Kylie]

Still not giving me a real world example of a situation where a number of correct facts can only lead to an incorrect conclusion...

 

[Ecowolf]

A^2 + B^2 = C^2
This has yet to be disproved.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Still not giving me a real world example of a situation where a number of correct facts can only lead to an incorrect conclusion...

You are restating the question in such a way that it cannot be answered by my assertion, however,

the O.J. Simpson verdict makes my case.


This explains what I mean better than I can.
Conclusion Validity

Then there's the climate change debate; same facts, wildly different conclusions.

 

[Skybringr]

A^2 + B^2 = C^2
This has yet to be disproved.

What is that equation supposed to be?

 

[Ecowolf]

What is that equation supposed to be?

Pythagorean

 

[Skybringr]

Pythagorean

Oh wow.

That's good stuff actually. Did you know Islam is ultimately influenced by that philosophy?

 

[Kylie]

You are restating the question in such a way that it cannot be answered by my assertion, however,

the O.J. Simpson verdict makes my case.

My question remains the same. Something which is made up of nothing other than true facts cannot possibly lead only to a lie.

This explains what I mean better than I can.
Conclusion Validity

Again, this is about how the data is interpreted.

Then there's the climate change debate; same facts, wildly different conclusions.

There is no debate among the scientists who actually study this. They all agree that it is happening. The only debate comes when you have politicians and big business say that it isn't happening because it would reduce their profits, and so they deliberately misrepresent the science, or cherry pick, or outright lie in order to confuse the average person.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is no debate among the scientists who actually study this. They all agree that it is happening. The only debate comes when you have politicians and big business say that it isn't happening because it would reduce their profits, and so they deliberately misrepresent the science, or cherry pick, or outright lie in order to confuse the average person.

I was referring to the disagreement between scientists. Same facts, different conclusions. One of them is wrong, thus the facts can lead to a false conclusion.

That said, from a theoretical viewpoint the facts cannot lead to a false conclusion, but you asked for a real world example.

 

[Kylie]

I was referring to the disagreement between scientists. Same facts, different conclusions. One of them is wrong, thus the facts can lead to a false conclusion.

That said, from a theoretical viewpoint the facts cannot lead to a false conclusion, but you asked for a real world example.

Can you show me a climate scientist who thinks climate change is not happening?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Can you show me a climate scientist who thinks climate change is not happening?

The issue isn't whether climate change is occurring, but why it is happening and what can man do about it.

Regards fact and truth, I have a real good real world example;

A student 'does' their homework (fact) but doesn't 'learn' their homework (truth).

 

[Kylie]

The issue isn't whether climate change is occurring, but why it is happening and what can man do about it.

I think you could have been a bit more clear about that.

Regards fact and truth, I have a real good real world example;

A student 'does' their homework (fact) but doesn't 'learn' their homework (truth).

If it is a fact that the student did their homework (completed all the questions), then it is also true. If they did not learn the lesson they were meant to learn (perhaps how to use the Pythagorean theorem), then it is both true that they didn't learn it and a fact that they didn't learn it.

I'm still not seeing a useful difference between fact and truth.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think you could have been a bit more clear about that.



If it is a fact that the student did their homework (completed all the questions), then it is also true. If they did not learn the lesson they were meant to learn (perhaps how to use the Pythagorean theorem), then it is both true that they didn't learn it and a fact that they didn't learn it.

I'm still not seeing a useful difference between fact and truth.

Truth is what emerges when all the facts are known. Facts are the building blocks needed to reach an honest conclusion. I can't define it any better than that. It's like a judge once remarked concerning the definition of pornography; "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. "

Truth, like being true, is a principle.

 

[Kylie]

Truth is what emerges when all the facts are known. Facts are the building blocks needed to reach an honest conclusion. I can't define it any better than that. It's like a judge once remarked concerning the definition of pornography; "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. "

Truth, like being true, is a principle.

But the thing is that a fact is some piece of information that accurately represents reality, and truth is also a piece of information that accurately represents reality.

In short, something that is true is something that is factual, and vice versa. I'd propose that there is no functional difference. Something that is true is a fact, and something factual is true.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But the thing is that a fact is some piece of information that accurately represents reality, and truth is also a piece of information that accurately represents reality.

In short, something that is true is something that is factual, and vice versa. I'd propose that there is no functional difference. Something that is true is a fact, and something factual is true.

This should help.

Verity - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Kylie]

This should help.

Verity - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Still not seeing anything that fits the word "True" and not the word "Factual."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Still not seeing anything that fits the word "True" and not the word "Factual."

This is the truth I'm speaking of.

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "truth":

225. aletheia al-ay'-thi-a from 227; truth:--true, X truly, truth, verity.
226. aletheuo al-ayth-yoo'-o from 227; to be true (in doctrine and profession):--speak (tell) the truth.
227. alethes al-ay-thace' from 1 (as a negative particle) and 2990; true (as not concealing):--true, truly, truth.
230. alethos al-ay-thoce' adverb from 227; truly:--indeed, surely, of a surety, truly, of a (in) truth, verily, very.

Factual means to be technically correct.

Truthful means to be morally honest, which would include presenting all the pertinent facts concerning a matter.

 

[Kylie]

This is the truth I'm speaking of.

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "truth":

225. aletheia al-ay'-thi-a from 227; truth:--true, X truly, truth, verity.
226. aletheuo al-ayth-yoo'-o from 227; to be true (in doctrine and profession):--speak (tell) the truth.
227. alethes al-ay-thace' from 1 (as a negative particle) and 2990; true (as not concealing):--true, truly, truth.
230. alethos al-ay-thoce' adverb from 227; truly:--indeed, surely, of a surety, truly, of a (in) truth, verily, very.

Factual means to be technically correct.

Truthful means to be morally honest, which would include presenting all the pertinent facts concerning a matter.

Still seems the same to me.

It's never morally honest to say something that is technically INcorrect, is it?

But again I ask you, can you give me an example of something which, using the definitions you gave in the post I quoted, is Truthful without being factual, or something that is factual without being truthful?

Because you've been saying there is a difference, but I've yet to see that this difference actually exists in reality.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Still seems the same to me.

It's never morally honest to say something that is technically INcorrect, is it?

But again I ask you, can you give me an example of something which, using the definitions you gave in the post I quoted, is Truthful without being factual, or something that is factual without being truthful?

Because you've been saying there is a difference, but I've yet to see that this difference actually exists in reality.

I don't think I can provide any answer that will satisfy you. You may declare yourself the winner of this argument. I don't mind.

 

[Kylie]

I don't think I can provide any answer that will satisfy you. You may declare yourself the winner of this argument. I don't mind.

It's a simple question. Can you show me something which is factual, not true? Can you show me something true, but not factual? You can't.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It's a simple question. Can you show me something which is factual, not true? Can you show me something true, but not factual? You can't.

I don't think I could show you the time of day if we were standing in a clock shop.