What is True Messianic Breaking of Bread?

[visionary]

I'm not supposed to post on here because I'm not a MJ.

That is true... questions you can ask.. to learn ... MJ policy rules.

 

[Alex Tennent]

I'm not supposed to post on here because I'm not a MJ.

Grafted, I was never told that the various threads are segregated, did a poster tell you that or someone in management?

 

[Daniel Gregg]

NAS Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

Quoting miss-translations is simply circular reasoning Alex. It says,

Now the later of the Sabbaths, at the dawning on the first of the Sabbaths, Miriam Magdalene and the other Miriam came to look at the grave."

The miss-translation you quoted simply ignores the rules of language:

Alex, if you beg the question one more time, I'm gonna be done discussing with you. Continuing an argument via circular reasoning after it is pointed out is not honest.

 

[Alex Tennent]

Quoting miss-translations is simply circular reasoning Alex. It says,

Now the later of the Sabbaths, at the dawning on the first of the Sabbaths, Miriam Magdalene and the other Miriam came to look at the grave."

The miss-translation you quoted simply ignores the rules of language:

Alex, if you beg the question one more time, I'm gonna be done discussing with you. Continuing an argument via circular reasoning after it is pointed out is not honest.

Daniel you have already shown me twice how you attempt to explain that one Matthew verse, so I don't need that again, but I have asked you twice to explain the following point and you won't answer:

NAS Luke 24:1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared.


On this Luke verse (above) Daniel, how does your Saturday morning resurrection theory explain this? In other words, why would these women wait all day Friday doing nothing to finish the burial preparation for the Messiah’s body, then leave home near sunrise carrying spices as the Sabbath is coming in, and get ready to anoint the body at early dawn on the Sabbath? As you know, carrying spices on the Sabbath and preparing a body for burial during Sabbath is against God's law. Your option does not make sense on this major point. What were these ladies doing all day and night Friday, leaving the Messiah's body in the tomb alone, when any time that day would have been the perfect time to anoint the body?

Daniel I am not an adversary to you I am for you, we are on the same side in the big picture. The main reason these points are important to me is because I believe the Messiah was teaching in parables at the last supper, and was not having an instruction on Passover or teaching the Catholic/Christian Communion ritual. If he was only teaching a Passover how does his supposed blood in a cup fit with a Jewish Passover? These parables have to be understood spiritually, they were not meant as a natural instruction.

 

[Grafted In]

Grafted, I was never told that the various threads are segregated, did a poster tell you that or someone in management?

See post just above yours.
&
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-must-read-and-agree-before-posting-in-this-forum.7764449?

 

[Grafted In]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

MJ, may I ask, is this portion of Scripture considered by you to be correctly translated?

 

[visionary]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:28

MJ, may I ask, is this portion of Scripture considered by you to be correctly translated?

Yes, and you could have started a new thread to ask this. It is just in case, you get a conversation going and don't want it to interfere with this current conversation in this post.

 

[Grafted In]

I will start my own thread in the future. My oppologies to the MJ membership.

 

[visionary]

I will start my own thread in the future. My opologies to the MJ membership.

No problem..

 

[Daniel Gregg]

so I don't need that again

The issue will be brought up as long as you give an answer that violates lexical, grammatical, and contextual rules, and ignores the precept to count seven Sabbaths (Lev. 23:15). And that is not the only part of Torah you reject. It is clear to me you are rejecting the Levitical code in your interpretations of Daniel 9:27.

Now your claim that I have not answered your question is not the truth, since it was already answered in a link to review your blog post, which you acknowledged that you approved. To give you a benefit of the doubt, you simply did not read it. You should do so now. The very objection you make here is quoted there and answered.

http://www.torahtimes.org/writings/tennent_review/article.html

Here is some material in addition to what is in that review.

Mishnah Shabbat 23.5, “One may perform all the requirements for a corpse [on Shabbat]: [One may] anoint and wash him, provided one does not move a limb.” Obviously this ruling applies to a body already in a tomb and not just not someone who has died on Sabbath and has to be moved to a tomb. It was expected that anointings could be performed on the Sabbath after the main burial or embalming was already done. Respect for and care of the dead was on the same level of duty as care for a sick person who needed tending, because it was assumed that the soul took several days to depart. Some Jewish traditions specify three to seven days. Mishnah Shabbat 151b, “One should not close the eyes of a dead person, nor on a weekday while the soul is departing.” For this reason tending the dead was not considered prohibited work. Even though Scripture says Messiah gave up his spirit, customary beliefs assumed it might linger at the body for several days. Even though the belief is subjective and some Jews doubted it, the practice was to error on the side of caution and safety and care for the dead, even to the point that people would assume that neglect of the dead was a spiritual demerit.

The spices (ἀρώματα) are “any kind of fragrant substance, fragrant spice/salve/oil/perfume” (BDAG, 3rd edition). The Friday-Sunday chronology has the women arriving at less than 40 hours from the moment of death. What is not explained is why they went so early in the morning since < 40 hours is no where near the deadline for a last anointing. What also is not explained is why the women would go out after dark at the end of Sabbath to buy spices (Mark 16:1) or so early in the morning if there was no rush to get to the tomb. Normally, any decay would not prevent a final anointing until after 72 hours. From his death on Wednesday to his resurrection just before dawn on the Sabbath is a period of about 63 hours which is near enough to the ending time for a final anointing. The women chose that time because it was the last time they could discreetly visit the tomb with no one noticing. In the early dawn while it was still dark on the morning of Sabbath very few people would be up and about. Although their anointing work was permitted by Rabbinic rulings, they wanted it quiet and in the cool of the day.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

ESV Luke 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.

BGT Luke 24:30 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς,

ESV Luke 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

BGT Luke 24:35 καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

 

[Alex Tennent]

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

Daniel, so is it true that you would be fine going to the Rabbi's house in the Orthodox section of Jerusalem and saying "Shalom Rabbi, I have brought bread for us to eat tonight for Passover"? And telling all your Orthodox friends the same thing? (assuming you were Orthodox?).

And even though the Talmud was clear that if a high priest ate anything leavened at Passover he would be whipped, you would be fine telling everyone that you and the Messiah ate "bread" at Passover?

 

[visionary]

...

If he was only teaching a Passover how does his supposed blood in a cup fit with a Jewish Passover? These parables have to be understood spiritually, they were not meant as a natural instruction.

Is this cup, the cup of redemption, found within the Passover seder? IS the cost of redemption the life [blood]?

Yeshua sees Himself being foretold within the services, within the laws, and prophesied. He lifts up the cup that night and said "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." "this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." It would be the first cup mentioned that night. Most agree that the first cup is the Kiddush, which means sanctification. With this cup, we begin the Passover seder.

Thus He gave more meaning to the Passover Seder cup... especially the cup of redemption... He also said that He will not drink again until He returns. The history of the cup when looking through the bible has been a theme but not a directive. The cup is often used as a symbol of God's judgment, the cup of fury, the cup of judgment, the cup of trembling and the cup of horror and desolation. But I think Yeshua connected Himself with

Ps 116:13 I will take up the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord

By calling the cup "the new covenant in my blood," Yeshua makes a direct reference to the promise of Jeremiah 31 where God had declared that He would make a new covenant because the previous covenant had become "broken".

To violate a covenant agreement with God would surely incur His wrath and judgment, a terrible cup but instead, Yeshua promised a new covenant of grace and salvation. He would drink the terrible cup. So the symbol of the cup carries with it pictures of both wrath and redemption, of judgment and blessing. Yeshua drank the bitter cup that night at Gethsemane.

Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

The second cup is called the cup of plagues and sometimes is thought of in combination with hallel [also Elijah cup] because some believe that we praise God for the plagues He used to make the break from Egypt happen.

Messiah Ben Joseph story of redemption is also found in the story of Joseph and the cup hidden brings the truth out for redemption and reconciliation. Joseph's plan of His own silver cup, brought accusations, and indictment. It was a symbol of judgment, death. When Messiah Ben Joseph revealed himself upon hearing the heart felt confessions, it became the occasion for redemption and forgiveness. It is the same today, in understanding, Yeshua can help us break from spiritual Egypt, and we praise Him. It is a hard one to swallow, but the healing comes from it.

The third cup is referred to as either the cup of redemption or the cup of blessing. Yeshua will be drinking with us again.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

ESV Luke 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.

BGT Luke 24:30 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς,

ESV Luke 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

BGT Luke 24:35 καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

So Messiah served leavened bread at Passover Mr. Tennent. Is that what you believe?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So Messiah served leavened bread at Passover Mr. Tennent. Is that what you believe?

What he is saying is that it was not yet Passover on the 13th/14th so leavened bread could be eaten. Unleavened was eaten on the 14th/15th at the seder.

 

[Truthfrees]

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[Daniel Gregg]

What he is saying is that it was not yet Passover on the 13th/14th so leavened bread could be eaten. Unleavened was eaten on the 14th/15th at the seder.

The passages I cited are from AFTER the resurrection. Mr. Tennent is unable to overcome these passages. They are fatal to his thesis that artos means only leavened bread.

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

ESV Luke 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.

BGT Luke 24:30 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς,

ESV Luke 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

BGT Luke 24:35 καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The passages I cited are from AFTER the resurrection. Mr. Tennent is unable to overcome these passages. They are fatal to his thesis that artos means only leavened bread.

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

ESV Luke 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.

BGT Luke 24:30 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς,

ESV Luke 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

BGT Luke 24:35 καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

Oh, I see, thanks for the clarification.

 

[daq]

This bread was served during the seven days of unleavened bread. The use of artos here can only mean unleavened bread, so I submit that Mr. Tennent's argument that artos only means leavened bread is faulty.

ESV Luke 24:30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them.

BGT Luke 24:30 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ κατακλιθῆναι αὐτὸν μετ᾽ αὐτῶν λαβὼν τὸν ἄρτον εὐλόγησεν καὶ κλάσας ἐπεδίδου αὐτοῖς,

ESV Luke 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

BGT Luke 24:35 καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐξηγοῦντο τὰ ἐν τῇ ὁδῷ καὶ ὡς ἐγνώσθη αὐτοῖς ἐν τῇ κλάσει τοῦ ἄρτου.

And again, both the bread of the Presence, ("shewbread", KJV), and the manna were clearly unleavened even though both are called lechem and artos in their respective texts, (Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Septuagint). The manna is clearly symbolic in the way Messiah uses it claiming to be the manna from the heavens, (artos-bread of life from the Father, the Word). One may partake of some of this manna from the heavens which has been provided during the Seder in the discourse found written between John 13:1 and John 18:1.
.
.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

And again, both the bread of the Presence, ("shewbread", KJV), and the manna were clearly unleavened even though both are called lechem and artos in their respective texts, (Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Septuagint).

Yes I see that. The Jewish Encylopedia only rates this as very probable. However, I think it is certain after reviewing the texts, esp. these:

JPS Leviticus 24:7 And thou shalt put pure frankincense with each row, that it may be to the bread for a memorial-part, even an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

ESV Leviticus 2:11 "No grain offering that you bring to the LORD shall be made with leaven, for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey as a food offering to the LORD.

The artist seems to have drawn unleavened loaves here.