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Because MJ arose in the West. It's a Western religion. You might as well ask "why does Mormonism have more similarities to Protestantism than to Copticism ?" Because it descended from, and is a reaction to Protestantism, and not Copticism. Nothing baffling to it.
Because MJ arose in the West. It's a Western religion. You might as well ask "why does Mormonism have more similarities to Protestantism than to Copticism ?" Because it descended from, and is a reaction to Protestantism, and not Copticism. Nothing baffling to it.
Yes, it provides spiritual food for thought with respect to the spiritual aspects of a Messianic oneg fellowship meal. A joyful, loving gathering celebrating all the great things the Lord has done and is going to do.PS AbbaLove, I think one of my favorite chapters it titled "The True Jewish Communion and the Messianic Feast." In that chapter I go into what communion was to the Jews long before the new covenant came in. I also tie in the 12 Showbread with Jewish history and the last supper parables. I couldn't resist adding a link to that chapter in this discussion! So here it is for anyone who might be interested: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_6.pdf
The fourteeners were not western neither were the original Christians/messianics. It started in the East, not in Rome.
Yeshua HaDerekh I apologize I just now saw your post. For some reason I no longer get notifications on this thread so I thought there was nothing new. But to answer your question and looking at the thread I would agree with Hoshiyya where he talked of the Mormons and how they were another Western offshoot like the Protestants. One more thing my book exposes (by showing the last supper bread was leavened and that the Jews did not teach the communion ritual) is that the unleavened bread ritual of the Jehovah's Witnesses is also false, and was merely the same thing that was handed down through Rome, that the Protestants accidently took along with them. Same thing with the Mormon communion ritual, they are all an offshoot from the Roman creation and were nothing the Messiah taught or wanted. So to answer your question, I have found it amazing that the MJ fellowships do not do the communion ritual, because something deep in their DNA knew it was not right and they did not want anything to do with it. Yet because many of them came forth out of this same Western influence, and they see the English translations, so they instead see it as a Passover and therefore they use unleavened bread in a Seder service and believe that fulfils what the Messiah wanted. As for Eastern, Western, and original believers in Israel, I would say it is important to keep in mind the history, and how the Jews (believers and unbelievers) were scattered in 70 AD and at other times, and many of them ended up in the East (see Fourteenthers chapter), but like Paul said, after his departure grevious wolves would enter in not sparing the flock. After Paul, there was no one to really hold the torch of truth as it were, and things went into the dark ages. But it was the Messianic followers in the East that tried to hold out against Rome until they were rejected and outlawed. But the Messiah is doing something in our day where a nation will be born in a day and the "Beast" of Revelation 13 will be defeated (Isaiah 66:1, 5-10).Alex, the one thing that always baffled me was why did the current Messianic movement partner with Western theology and not the older Eastern Orthodox theology? Eastern Orthodoxy is the offspring of the fourteeners in the East, although even it has succumb ("judaizers") somewhat to Rome until 1054. The Eastern churches have always used unleavened bread. Even though I am Orthodox, I still try and adhere to the initial teachings of John, Polycarp and their Jewish successors of our church Fathers. Shalom
AbbaLove, sorry I did not see your question sooner. I believe the Jewish history is very clear that the Passovers were always sacrificed on the 14th day of Nisan between noon and sundown. For that clear history from the Jewish sources, including the new and old testaments, you can read the chapter titled "Between the Evenings--The Legal Time to Slay the Passover" at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdfYes, it provides spiritual food for thought with respect to the spiritual aspects of a Messianic oneg fellowship meal. A joyful, loving gathering celebrating all the great things the Lord has done and is going to do.
Not to change the subject, but would be interested in your insights on the following ...
Do you know what day(s) the household Passover lambs were killed, roasted and consumed by the people during the time of Yeshua? During Yeshua’s time on earth would the people kill and roast their Passover lambs before sundown on the 13th or 14th and then celebrate their Passover (Seder) Meal after sundown during the first hours of Nisan 14 or 15? Is the reason Nisan 15 is considered the 1st day of Passover (on today's Jewish calendars) because the Passover Meal wasn't eaten until Nisan 15?
Are we all in agreement that the perfect Passover Lamb, sacrificed by the High Priest, took place about the same time that Yeshua was crucified on Nisan 14?
Thanks Again! Yes, it doesn't make sense to me that the household Passover lambs would be eaten before the first day of Unleavened Bread which didn't begin until Nisan 15. Doesn't make sense why Yeshua would eat of a roasted Passover lamb with unleavened bread on Nisan 14 (Last Supper), prior to the first day (Nisan 15) of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.... you can read the chapter titled "Between the Evenings--The Legal Time to Slay the Passover" at this link: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Between-the-Evenings.pdf
Thanks Again! Yes, it doesn't make sense to me that the household Passover lambs would be eaten before the first day of Unleavened Bread which didn't begin until Nisan 15. Doesn't make sense why Yeshua would eat of a roasted Passover lamb with unleavened bread on Nisan 14 (Last Supper), prior to the first day (Nisan 15) of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
As much as it goes against the grain of tradition ... reason tells us that the Last Supper (at the beginning of Nisan 14) did not include roasted lamb or unleavened bread. The preparation for the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) may have actually begun during the afternoon on Nisan 13. However, the actual meal (Last Supper), Yeshua's arrest, trial, beating, crucifixion and placing in the tomb all took place on Nisan 14.
Can we assume that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) began after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14. We've heard of the saying that goes something like this, "Working from sunrise to sunset makes one healthy, wealthy and wise." This work ethic seems even more typical of a Jewish proverb than an American proverb as first quoted by Benjamin Franklin in 1735.
There was no mention of lamb (no lamb was needed since Yeshua would be that lamb). The meal was after sunset (the same day the lambs would be killed). After that meal, he was arrested and tried over night and crucified from 9 AM to 3 PM when the lambs were slain. He was taken down from the cross and buried before sunset. Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"
No, but wasn't there an unbroken shank bone present at Passover.
So true and something I wish was addressed more seriously when it comes to Orthodoxy (be it Eastern or Oriental). To see the rich Jewish heritage present there and the history with practices and the Jewish Church Fathers, I am always intrigued when a Western model is accepted but the earlier model is not really something people are aware of.Alex, the one thing that always baffled me was why did the current Messianic movement partner with Western theology and not the older Eastern Orthodox theology? Eastern Orthodoxy is the offspring of the fourteeners in the East, although even it has succumb ("judaizers") somewhat to Rome until 1054. The Eastern churches have always used unleavened bread. Even though I am Orthodox, I still try and adhere to the initial teachings of John, Polycarp and their Jewish successors of our church Fathers. Shalom
Grafted in, I cover the Showbread and whether or not they were leavened (and the history of how they changed) in Course 7. Here is that link if you want to see that history. And remember that the Twelve Showbread represented the Twelve tribes, not the Messiah, so there was no typological need for them to be unleavened. Here is that chapter titled "The Showbread: Who They Represent, Were They Unleavened, and Why It Matters" and can be found here: http://themessianicfeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/TMF_Course_7.pdfAlso, ( I have yet to read the links you supplied ) I have a hard time understanding the Shew Bread being leavened and yet residing in the Tabernacle beyond the sacrifice for sin. It was displayed in The Holy place, wasn't it.
Zola once made the comment "God has a picture of His Son on His table".
Grafted in, see the last few pages of the link I put up titled "Between the Evenings".How about some clarification one the 3 hours of total darkness over the entire world at Jesus' death.
I would guess so, as it says he came "in the evening" with the Twelve (Mark 14:17), the Greek word translated "evening" there means late, so it could also mean late in their day (which ended at sunset). Thats one aspect I haven't really researched out, only because for that point I didn't feel it really applied to anything (i.e. whether the LS was at 5:00 or 7:00). And even for the Passover feast itself, I know that some say it was only after sunset, but I never saw any scripture that said it had to be after sunset. From what I have seen, they could sacrifice the Passovers starting around 1:00 or so (but legally any time after noon), and after the sacrifice they were skinned and put in a earthen fire pit/oven, and when done they would take each one to the group it was appointed for. And in my thinking I see nothing scripturally that would be wrong for those who had the first lambs roasted with starting to eat it at 5:00 or so, an hour or so before sundown, but I am open to correction. The Passover sacrifice was the one sacrifice where an Israelite from any tribe (not just Levi) could approach the great altar and make the sacrifice.Can we assume that the Lord's Meal (Last Supper) began after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14.
Well, apparently the Complete Jewish Bible translators believe it WAS a Passover type meal that Yeshua had on the 1st day of matzah, which was also the day of Passover (Nisan 14) according to Matthew and Luke. Luke 22:1-7 seems pretty straight forward that the Passover and the 1st day of Unleavened Bread (matzah) both occurred on Nisan 14.Did anyone ever think that this actually WAS a Passover type meal and that Yeshua had it the night before because all those dealing with His dead body would be impure the next evening (just a thought)? When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God"
AbbaLove, what they are saying is the same thing that has been handed down since the RCC took over and pushed out the Messianic Jews (called Fourteenthers). I would like to post a couple chapters for you or anyone else to consider in this regard. Part of why I am putting this all in one place is so that if I am asked any more questions I can just point to this post! I would recommend these four chapters to at least see what I am saying, so here goes:Well, apparently the Complete Jewish Bible translators believe it WAS a Passover type meal that Yeshua had on the 1st day of matzah, which was also the day of Passover (Nisan 14) according to Matthew and Luke. Luke 22:1-7 seems pretty straight forward that the Passover and the 1st day of Unleavened Bread (matzah) both occurred on Nisan 14.
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