What is the thing you like the most of traditional liturgies?

[Not David]

Any aspect in comparison to non-traditional ones?

 

[Philip_B]

Rise and Fall, Rhythm and Season, Dignity and Delight, The structure which truly enables liberty. Prayerfulness.

 

[Not David]

Rise and Fall, Rhythm and Season, Dignity and Delight, The structure which truly enables liberty. Prayerfulness.

Can you explain more about it?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Any aspect in comparison to non-traditional ones?

Are you comparing traditional Liturgies to a completely non-traditional - like contemporary? - service?

Or a non-traditional Liturgy? I'm not sure I'd know what that is?

 

[Tigger45]

One thing I appreciate about Traditional liturgies is how they follow the life of Christ from His incarnation to His ascension.

 

[Paidiske]

I think I agree with Philip_B. Traditional liturgies have been very carefully constructed - and refined over long periods of use - to provide for the worshipping needs of diverse communities through their life cycles.

In contrast, contemporary services are (in my experience) often kind of thrown together according to the whim or taste of one or a few people, with little thought given to connection and progression over a season, a year, or a lifetime (or at worst, even within the one service).

Now, I'm not saying that God can't be at work in the latter, but I feel like there's a depth and richness to the former which I prefer.

 

[Julian of Norwich]

Yes, the depth and richness (and the beauty, dignity and pageantry). The best we (humans) can give to Him!

 

[~Anastasia~]

If that's what is meant, I agree with the others here.

Well, actually I'm going to say something else is my favorite. That's the sense of the sacred. The Divine Liturgy has a sense of "otherness" and the feel of heaven, to the point of inspiring awe ... in a way I never experienced so fully before in any other kind of service, and when I finally did, I realized that THAT was what I hungered for in worship. Even after - five and a half years now? - it still strikes me in almost every Liturgy.

But other than that, I do dearly love the cycle and how we are brought to continually reflect on Christ's birth, and baptism, and all the parts of His ministry on earth, the transfiguration, His entry into Jerusalem, the Mystical supper, the events of His passion, the Crucifixion, the glorious Resurrection, His Ascension, and Pentecost with the birth of the Church. The rhythms are very comforting, sometimes challenging us to draw ever closer, and somehow serve as a better reminder of all of human history and that He IS coming again - even more so than some of my former communions that might be very focused on end-times. Somehow it all seems much surer to me in the yearly cycles.

But the sense of the sacred - the "heaven touching earth" of the Divine Liturgy - that is probably most precious to me personally.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have never been one to follow tradition or rituals. I came in during the Jesus Movement back in the early 70s and being born in a time of teen rebellion, we frowned at traditions and rituals. But in my old age (65 old?) I have decided that these rituals and traditions are what gives our lives continuity and balance. Not replacing faith or love which are the heart of our faith, but matters of fellowship and discipline that you can look back and relate to through the years. This also gives continuity from one generation to the next.

 

[Not David]

Are you comparing traditional Liturgies to a completely non-traditional - like contemporary? - service?

Or a non-traditional Liturgy? I'm not sure I'd know what that is?

Aren't they the same?

 

[Philip_B]

Can you explain more about it?

Rise and Fall, Rhythm and Season, Dignity and Delight, The structure which truly enables liberty. Prayerfulness.​

I am very aware of the shape of the liturgy.

• We commence with the synaxis in whatever form that may take, where we acknowledge our purpose in coming together and that we stand in the presence of God
• Next we have the penitential rite where we recognise in the presence of the light the great shadow that sin casts in our lives and lament and repent
• Having heard our forgiveness pronounced we rise up and join the Angels in the eternal song Glory to God in the Highest and peace to his people of earth
• Now it is time for school, and we reflect on the Old Testament and the New Testament readings and what they tell us about God and how we should live a Christians.
• The pinnacle of this part of the liturgy is the reading of the Gospel, where we stand and encounter Jesus in the living word.
• The sermon then follows as we reflect on the encounter with Jesus yet again.
• Then we affirm the faith, and pray for all people
• Then we seek to acknowledge the light of Christ being carried in the others as we share the Peace that Christ brings to our lives.
• Then the bread is taken, blessed broken and shared, as we encounter Jesus in the promised anamnesis of the Holy Communion.
• Then we are sent into the world to carry the news of our encounter with Jesus into the world, and having seen Jesus here, hopefully better equipped to encounter him in the face of friend and stranger.

As I see it there are three great high points in the the liturgy and they all have to do with the encounter with Jesus, in the word, in one another, and in the most holy sacrament of the altar. And the sheer low point of recognising how we fail and how often we fail, as expressed in the confession. This depth and variety even though it is predictable, it doesn't lose its wonder. Every time you see the sun rise, even though it is the same sun in the same sky, it is always new and full of promise.

I am part of a church that uses a lectionary, and that means that we cover the scope of scripture widely through a three year cycle. I know a friend who attended a different Church argued that they read more scripture than we did, so he started writing down the sunday diet of scripture and after six months we compared his list the the lectionary, and he was shattered on the one hand to realise how many repeats were on his list and how many passages we had heard that he had never heard.

The Church Year, and I think someone else mentioned this ensures that we cover all bases, from creation to pentecost and beyond.

Because as a regular attended I kinda know the liturgy, I really don't need the book in my hand all the time, and I have the freedom to be immersed the the liturgy and the words intellectually, and quite free in spirit to be fully engaged in worship. I think I really realised this in New Guinea when I was worshipping in Orakaiva (a language I don't speak) and I found it did not matter because the shape and the structure let me participate at a whole nother level. The real language of the liturgy is bread and wine.

My experience of contemporary/non-traditional worship has been that it lacks this kind of depth and often seems to be a hymn and reading sandwich, and often the focus seems to be on being happy or thankful, or rejoicing, and they are all good things, however if that is all there is it is a bit bland and does not really reflect the complexity of the life of faith and the journey that we are all on.

I hope I have answered the question.

I really like liturgy which includes some space so that we might encounter God, not in the thunder the lightning or the storm but in the sound of sheer silence.

 

[Not David]

Rise and Fall, Rhythm and Season, Dignity and Delight, The structure which truly enables liberty. Prayerfulness.​

I am very aware of the shape of the liturgy.

• We commence with the synaxis in whatever form that may take, where we acknowledge our purpose in coming together and that we stand in the presence of God
• Next we have the penitential rite where we recognise in the presence of the light the great shadow that sin casts in our lives and lament and repent
• Having heard our forgiveness pronounced we rise up and join the Angels in the eternal song Glory to God in the Highest and peace to his people of earth
• Now it is time for school, and we reflect on the Old Testament and the New Testament readings and what they tell us about God and how we should live a Christians.
• The pinnacle of this part of the liturgy is the reading of the Gospel, where we stand and encounter Jesus in the living word.
• The sermon then follows as we reflect on the encounter with Jesus yet again.
• Then we affirm the faith, and pray for all people
• Then we seek to acknowledge the light of Christ being carried in the others as we share the Peace that Christ brings to our lives.
• Then the bread is taken, blessed broken and shared, as we encounter Jesus in the promised anamnesis of the Holy Communion.
• Then we are sent into the world to carry the news of our encounter with Jesus into the world, and having seen Jesus here, hopefully better equipped to encounter him in the face of friend and stranger.

As I see it there are three great high points in the the liturgy and they all have to do with the encounter with Jesus, in the word, in one another, and in the most holy sacrament of the altar. And the sheer low point of recognising how we fail and how often we fail, as expressed in the confession. This depth and variety even though it is predictable, it doesn't lose its wonder. Every time you see the sun rise, even though it is the same sun in the same sky, it is always new and full of promise.

I am part of a church that uses a lectionary, and that means that we cover the scope of scripture widely through a three year cycle. I know a friend who attended a different Church argued that they read more scripture than we did, so he started writing down the sunday diet of scripture and after six months we compared his list the the lectionary, and he was shattered on the one hand to realise how many repeats were on his list and how many passages we had heard that he had never heard.

The Church Year, and I think someone else mentioned this ensures that we cover all bases, from creation to pentecost and beyond.

Because as a regular attended I kinda know the liturgy, I really don't need the book in my hand all the time, and I have the freedom to be immersed the the liturgy and the words intellectually, and quite free in spirit to be fully engaged in worship. I think I really realised this in New Guinea when I was worshipping in Orakaiva (a language I don't speak) and I found it did not matter because the shape and the structure let me participate at a whole nother level. The real language of the liturgy is bread and wine.

My experience of contemporary/non-traditional worship has been that it lacks this kind of depth and often seems to be a hymn and reading sandwich, and often the focus seems to be on being happy or thankful, or rejoicing, and they are all good things, however if that is all there is it is a bit bland and does not really reflect the complexity of the life of faith and the journey that we are all on.

I hope I have answered the question.

I really like liturgy which includes some space so that we might encounter God, not in the thunder the lightning or the storm but in the sound of sheer silence.

Thanks! That was informative

 

[ripple the car]

I like the way we pray our theology. It's beautiful. And easier for me to understand.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Aren't they the same?

I wouldn't think so.

I wouldn't describe the average contemporary service as a "non-traditional Liturgy" ... because it's not a Liturgy at all really.

 

[Philip_B]

I wouldn't think so.

I wouldn't describe the average contemporary service as a "non-traditional Liturgy" ... because it's not a Liturgy at all really.

The greek roots of the word liturgy are found in the words laos and ergon. That is readily understood as 'the people's work'. It is not something that the ministry team up the front does, (which would be more like a concert or a play) but rather something that we all do together. The great benefit of the text of the liturgy in a book of some kind is that in one way or another we can all participate, because it is something that we are all doing together, not something being done to the lay people by the clergy.

To me that is ultimately the difference between liturgy and non-liturgy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The greek roots of the word liturgy are found in the words laos and ergon. That is readily understood as 'the people's work'. It is not something that the ministry team up the front does, (which would be more like a concert or a play) but rather something that we all do together. The great benefit of the text of the liturgy in a book of some kind is that in one way or another we can all participate, because it is something that we are all doing together, not something being done to the lay people by the clergy.

To me that is ultimately the difference between liturgy and non-liturgy.

I agree that it is absolutely a cooperative participation. In an Orthodox Church, there can be no Divine Liturgy if the priest is there alone.

But I guess what I meant is that the form many typical contemporary services take are not what I would see as "the work of the people" along with the clergy. Most often the sermon is the central part, and the people are only observing. Commonly there is no consecration of communion. And there is usually a beginning and/or dismissal prayer (not always!) but often no litanies.

 

[Philip_B]

there can be no Divine Liturgy if the priest is there alone.

A few of our clergy have been known to count the odd Angel when reporting mass attendance numbers.

 

[Paidiske]

It does put one in an awkward position, when there are supposed to be at least two people present besides the priest, and only one turns up...

 

[~Anastasia~]

A few of our clergy have been known to count the odd Angel when reporting mass attendance numbers.

There are interesting stories about angels and Saints.

But I suppose unless the priest sees them with his eyes it can't count for us.

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with the others: How can you compare a liturgy with a non-liturgy? If it's not traditional, it's not really a liturgy. It might be some other type of worship service, but liturgies have very specific forms that aren't to be mucked about with.

Also, I feel like it would be impossible to respond to this without sounding rude, since it's supposed to be comparative, but in a way that is not exactly flattering to those who don't adhere to the liturgical standard that we do (whatever that happens to be, in the individual poster's case), since this is the "Traditional Theology" board. But if we scratch the "in comparison to non-traditional ones" part and maybe substitute it with "in comparison to others we have experienced", I would say the Fraction prayers, definitely. I was actually looking through the order of the Roman Mass (2011, found in PDF form here, if anyone's curious) right now to make sure I'm not remembering it incorrectly and that the RCC really don't have fraction prayers (don't wanna make an idiot out of myself anymore than is absolutely necessary, y'know), until I remembered: Oh, right. Duh. They don't use leavened bread for their Eucharist. They can't have fraction prayers, because there's nothing to fracture in order to distribute it. Each person gets their own host. They have Eucharistic prayers, but not Fraction prayers as we know them.

That's how far away I am from the memory of any of this stuff by now! It'd be scary if I wasn't fighting what is probably strep throat at the moment, but as it is, I'm going to blame that.

Anyway, so fraction prayers...I don't know if other non-OO churches have these or not, but these are the prayers to be said by the priest during the fracturing/breaking apart of the Eucharistic bread for its distribution to the communicants. This online resource (opens as a PDF) lists 38 of them, totaling just over 80 pages, but I know there are more because there are 'rare' fractions, e.g., with alternate wording or to be said on a particular day of the month, or as passed down from this or that particular teacher. The Coptic Orthodox Church is still, to this day, a very 'regional' Church, as in people from this part of Egypt will say the liturgy differently than people in that part. Things like this contribute to the keeping of that organic diversity.

As you might guess, with over 30 fraction prayers and only three liturgies, they vary according to the liturgical time period that we are in, with different fractions for Lent, for the feast and fast of the Apostles, for Kiahk (St. Mary's month), etc.

Here are a few of my favorites that I could find either in English or with English subtitles:

Fraction for the Apostles Fast and Feast, prayed in Arabic (maybe by Fr. Youssef Asaad? I could've sworn I'd seen it credited to him in other versions of this video, but now I either can't find those or my brain has decided to make up a false memory.)

Fraction for Great Lent, prayed in Arabic by Fr. Boula Melek

Fraction on Wisdom attributed to St. Epiphanius of Salamis (310-403), prayed in English by Fr. Antonious Tanious

Fraction for the Resurrection, prayed in English (it sounds to me like Fr. Antonious again, but I don't know for sure)