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What is the thing you like the most of traditional liturgies?

Paidiske

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We have a very brief prayer said at the breaking of the bread (like, one sentence), for example:

As this broken bread was once many grains, which have been gathered together and made one bread:
so may your Church be gathered from the ends of the earth into your kingdom.

(Bold is the congregational part).

I disagree that contemporary services aren't a liturgy, though. They're just a very different kind of liturgy.
 
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dzheremi

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I had hoped to show this by the variety of texts included, but just in case case it is not clear, even though the fraction prayers are called that, they don't have to do with the breaking of the bread itself in a narrative sense (at least not insofar as I've ever seen). If you're talking about that, it seems better to call something akin to an institution narrative, like this (starting around 1:31; this was the clearest example I could find in English, though it comes from the Indian Syriac Orthodox Church, not the Coptic Orthodox):


We'll just have to disagree about non-traditional liturgies. I suppose it could be argued to be a matter of degree (in the sense of "how much can you abbreviate/skip things before it stops being a liturgy" or "what is appropriate to introduce or not"), but I'd just as well not get into that kind of thinking, for the sake of keeping peace on the forum. We very much disagree, but okay. So long as nobody's forcing anyone else to accept anything, it's fine.
 
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Athanasias

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I like the mystery, the reverence, the beauty(in artwork and vestments) and the sacred music at traditional liturgies.


 
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GreekOrthodox

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MarkRohfrietsch

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It could be a contemporary liturgy where the basic framework uses modern language and music such as the Lutheran Folk Service which uses piano and guitar
The Chicago Folk Service - Zion Lutheran Church of Saddle River NJ
Certainly, and such are just as valid, and may be more meaningful for some (I'm a traditionalist LOL).
There is also the Finish "Metal Mass" that follows the traditional formula of the Mass as well. That is about the only time the Churches are full; my guess: people going for entertainment more than edification. This I have an issue with; not the format or the music.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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That can happen with any format though. I used to hate it when I worked for a Cathedral and tourists would come in asking which service would be "the best show."
So true.

I love "high liturgy" but for my wife's very orange reformed protestant family; my Church is too "catholic" and creeps them out. (one of my colleagues is a Catholic from Malaysia, and he finds us "to Catholic" for him; LOL).
 
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GreekOrthodox

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Certainly, and such are just as valid, and may be more meaningful for some (I'm a traditionalist LOL).
There is also the Finish "Metal Mass" that follows the traditional formula of the Mass as well. That is about the only time the Churches are full; my guess: people going for entertainment more than edification. This I have an issue with; not the format or the music.

Well, David Ellefson from Megadeath was studying to be a LCMS pastor back in 2012 but I didnt find his name in the LCMS directory
Megadeth Bassist David Ellefson Studying to Be Pastor

So as a traditionalist did you find a church still using TLH (which I grew up on and I can pretty much still sing even though Ive been Orthodox for 18 years now) or did you finally have to adjust to a newer hymnal?
 
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All4Christ

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I agree that “technically” contemporary non-liturgical services are liturgies, though my old Pentecostal church would vehemently disagree with that assessment :)

A liturgy is a formulary for conducting the service. In my old church, that was:

1.) Opening prayer
2.) Praise and worship
3.) Sermon
4.) Monthly addition of communion
5.) Altar call
6.) Dismissal

Even though it wasn’t a historical form of liturgy, it was a structure we followed each week - hence a liturgy.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Well, David Ellefson from Megadeath was studying to be a LCMS pastor back in 2012 but I didnt find his name in the LCMS directory
Megadeth Bassist David Ellefson Studying to Be Pastor

So as a traditionalist did you find a church still using TLH (which I grew up on and I can pretty much still sing even though Ive been Orthodox for 18 years now) or did you finally have to adjust to a newer hymnal?

Don't know about David.

Regarding TLH; yes and sort of... Let me explain; I too grew up with TLH, then the Church that I grew up in got the newer hymnal in the 80's; we had no idea how bad it was until we started using it. I eventually left that congregation and went to one in the city where I currently live that was still using TLH; I was home!! As an elder there, a delegation went to a presentation on our newest hymnal, Lutheran Service Book, and we were astounded at the quality of it's content and the music which it contained. While it does contain some newer settings, Divine Service III is a restoration of both the music and the old language of "Page 15"; but in addition it is fully notated so it can be fully sung, including the appointed readings, the Eucharistic prayer, and the General Prayers. When fully sung, it is truly beautiful.

Likewise many of they hymns have also been "restored". There are some hymns that have been excluded that I would not have; but there are also hymns that have been added that are of great Merritt. Great job on behalf of our Synods!!!

The first video I posted above is Divine Service Three with extra man-power. In the Rubrics, if the Pastor and Congregation prefer, Incense may be used also.
 
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dzheremi

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I think any time you're having to use the qualifier technically, you're dealing with something that would be recognized in any other context as some kind of violation of the norm or otherwise requiring some sort of asterisk, e.g., "Hillary Clinton may have won the popular vote, but since she didn't win the electoral college, she technically did not win the presidency." That is a factual statement, but it only needs to be phrased that way in the first place because that particular circumstance has only occurred four times in the history of the country. (50+ elections)

That says nothing as to the validity (?) of these exceptions (read: it's not like we run the election over until the popular vote and electoral college vote match), but that is still what they are. I would say the same about non-traditional liturgies: I don't want to question their validity (that's not my place), but I would like it if they were recognized as being abnormalities, in the historical sense, rather than a matter of personal preference.

When I hear of Protestantized 'liturgies' in my own Church, as have plagued certain dioceses to the point that bishops were sent from Egypt to investigate them and institute reforms, I don't say "Well, some people like that stuff". I say those are not Coptic Orthodox churches in any way beyond having the appropriate signage outside of the building. I have to believe that there was a time in the past when Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. would've held to the same standard within the context of their own traditions. The problem comes in accepting a bifurcated worship and expecting that to hold together in a church that should be united. Don't get me wrong, especially as an OO person I obviously don't have a problem with different modes of worship, as a Coptic Orthodox liturgy is different than a Syriac Orthodox liturgy, which is different than an Armenian Apostolic liturgy, etc. The problem I have is with different standards being embraced by the same Church depending on what this or that demographic wants, e.g., "Youth masses" and the like, which when I was a Catholic always struck me as what some Baby Boomer thought the youth would like based on their recalling their own childhood in the 1960s, hence the hippie guitars and "Kumbaya" type sing-alongs and such, though ones I did go to while living in Oregon before I left the RCC did feature things like a jazz band or a Celtic harpist...at least they're mixing things up, I guess? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(Sorry. I tried to stay quiet after my last post, but then there was more, like that metal mass... :oops:)
 
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Paidiske

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I think the reason that, for me, it's important to insist that even the most - ah - historically abnormal (to borrow your phrase, dzheremi) liturgies are still liturgies is to do with what liturgy is.

If we start with the basic definitional foundation that the liturgy is the work of the people when they gather to worship, then it doesn't matter how historically abnormal it is, if the people are doing it, it's still a liturgy.

If we start to say, "It's only a liturgy if I can see x, y, and z elements in an appropriate structure" (or whatever) then we get away from defining the liturgy as the work of the people and start defining it as a particular set of actions performed in a particular way. And once we do that, we've actually changed the meaning of liturgy altogether.

Now, if you want to say there's lots of really bad, shoddy, weak or insipid liturgy out there, you won't get any argument from me. But I think we need to grant that it is still, in some sense, liturgy if we want to honour the essence of what makes liturgy, liturgy.
 
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dzheremi

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I definitely see where you're coming from here, and I didn't put it that way to insult you in any fashion, but to emphasize that my problem with them is in their historical rootlessness -- how irregular they are relative to the historical standard as developed at a given place or among a given people (as opposed to being modifications of something that is still well-rooted in itself; cf. the Liturgy of St. Cyril being an 'Egyptianized' version of the Greek Liturgy of St. Mark). If everything is a liturgy just because people are gathering together to do it in service/praise/supplication of the Lord, then certainly that would be a good argument, but I don't think you can use the understanding of the word itself to build such an argument.

For one thing, it appears that the "liturgy" as a "work of the people" in Ancient Greece and Rome was something that was assigned to particular benefactors by the state, such that if you didn't what they asked of you how they they asked you to do it, you wouldn't be performing a liturgy at all:

"In ancient Greece, particularly at Athens, a form of personal service to the state which citizens possessing property to a certain amount were bound, when called upon, to perform at their own cost. These liturgies were ordinary, including the presentation of dramatic performances, musical and poetic contests, etc., the celebration of some festivals, and other public functions entailing expense upon the incumbent; or extraordinary, as the fitting out of a trireme In case of war."

(source)

So let's say you're called to service in an extraordinary liturgical capacity. If you show up to the trireme (one of those ancient Greco-Roman warships with the three rows of oars) not with the men and supplies needed to outfit the expedition, but with the lute and the dramatic masks and costumes necessary for an ordinary liturgy consisting of a musical and theatrical performance, have you performed your liturgy? No. You may be doing something else to some other, related end, but it would not be that which was established for you by those in charge of telling you what you need to do and how you need to do it.

Similarly I don't think it's up to any one of us to only perform things up to the degree that we wish to, or in this particular style that we prefer. Liturgies of course do develop over time, we should hope organically, but again, change via adaptation isn't the problem. It's just kind of hard to see how this


is in any sense an organic adaptation of this


and yet I doubt that the people in the first video had gathered to do anything other than to praise God!
 
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