What is the student's responsibility?

[OldWiseGuy]

Pursuant to this topic on a different forum I want to breach the subject of student, especially poor and disadvantaged students, responsibility regarding their own education.

As a veteran of elementary and high school I can confess to my own lack of interest and effort regarding many of the courses that were forced on me, which of course resulted in less than stellar grades. I had little motivation to succeed in school and only did so because I didn't want to be thought of as a stupid person. I did well however in classes that interested me, and in classes taught by teachers that I liked or connected with. I didn't do well with teaches that I didn't particularly like.

I came from a lower middle class working family that didn't particularly value education.

As high school graduation neared a teacher that I didn't really like cautioned me that if I didn't pass his course I wouldn't graduate with my class, and I was failing his class. This was totally unacceptable to me so I got down to business and studied hard. I passed with a B grade, much to my, and his, surprise, and went on to graduate with my class.

Looking back on my education, in public school as well as the Army courses I took for my military occupation (MOS artillery surveyor), it occurs to me that most course subjects are easily learned with a modicum of effort. It is extraneous outside influences and attitudes that get in the way. My conclusion is that barring mental disorder or deficiency anyone can learn most anything being taught in our public schools, regardless of income or status. All that is required is a little more effort on the part of the students.

 

[Divide]

Pursuant to this topic on a different forum I want to breach the subject of student, especially poor and disadvantaged students, responsibility regarding their own education.

As a veteran of elementary and high school I can confess to my own lack of interest and effort regarding many of the courses that were forced on me, which of course resulted in less than stellar grades. I had little motivation to succeed in school and only did so because I didn't want to be thought of as a stupid person. I did well however in classes that interested me, and in classes taught by teachers that I liked or connected with. I didn't do well with teaches that I didn't particularly like.

I came from a lower middle class working family that didn't particularly value education.

As high school graduation neared a teacher that I didn't really like cautioned me that if I didn't pass his course I wouldn't graduate with my class, and I was failing his class. This was totally unacceptable to me so I got down to business and studied hard. I passed with a B grade, much to my, and his, surprise, and went on to graduate with my class.

Looking back on my education, in public school as well as the Army courses I took for my military occupation (MOS artillery surveyor), it occurs to me that most course subjects are easily learned with a modicum of effort. It is extraneous outside influences and attitudes that get in the way. My conclusion is that barring mental disorder or deficiency anyone can learn most anything being taught in our public schools, regardless of income or status. All that is required is a little more effort on the part of the students.

That's sorta how I got my education. On my own. I was all into learning but recognized the school system for what it is, no help at all for a guy who wants to learn something useful. Sometimes, I'd skip school and stay home and read books, lol. The teachers didn't like me because I wouldn't do most of the assignments, but I'd test and pass so they had to pass me. I even wound up quitting school but as soon as I was 18 I went down and got my GED. I didn't even need tutoring classes to be able to pass the test. I just went in and took the test and passed with a 93.

Many trades are tool oriented but I sure do regret picking up a wrench. I should've went to college.

 

[Hank77]

Pursuant to this topic on a different forum I want to breach the subject of student, especially poor and disadvantaged students, responsibility regarding their own education.

As a veteran of elementary and high school I can confess to my own lack of interest and effort regarding many of the courses that were forced on me, which of course resulted in less than stellar grades. I had little motivation to succeed in school and only did so because I didn't want to be thought of as a stupid person. I did well however in classes that interested me, and in classes taught by teachers that I liked or connected with. I didn't do well with teaches that I didn't particularly like.

I came from a lower middle class working family that didn't particularly value education.

As high school graduation neared a teacher that I didn't really like cautioned me that if I didn't pass his course I wouldn't graduate with my class, and I was failing his class. This was totally unacceptable to me so I got down to business and studied hard. I passed with a B grade, much to my, and his, surprise, and went on to graduate with my class.

Looking back on my education, in public school as well as the Army courses I took for my military occupation (MOS artillery surveyor), it occurs to me that most course subjects are easily learned with a modicum of effort. It is extraneous outside influences and attitudes that get in the way. My conclusion is that barring mental disorder or deficiency anyone can learn most anything being taught in our public schools, regardless of income or status. All that is required is a little more effort on the part of the students.

I would agree that is generally all true. I think there is an exception to that rule. If students are in a classroom that is being consistently disrupted by disruptive students it makes it almost impossible for teachers to teach and students to learn. Unfortunately this is the condition of many inner city schools.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's sorta how I got my education. On my own. I was all into learning but recognized the school system for what it is, no help at all for a guy who wants to learn something useful. Sometimes, I'd skip school and stay home and read books, lol. The teachers didn't like me because I wouldn't do most of the assignments, but I'd test and pass so they had to pass me. I even wound up quitting school but as soon as I was 18 I went down and got my GED. I didn't even need tutoring classes to be able to pass the test. I just went in and took the test and passed with a 93.

Many trades are tool oriented but I sure do regret picking up a wrench. I should've went to college.

My late brother-in-law was a PHD in education, writing and teaching programs for 'gifted and talented' kids. His opinion of public education was pretty low. He thought that most kid's learning ability was seriously impaired by the very education system that is supposed to improve it.

The key to successful education is indiscriminate personal attention by the teacher, and cooperative effort by and between the students. Sadly this cannot be done under the current system.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I would agree that is generally all true. I think there is an exception to that rule. If students are in a classroom that is being consistently disrupted by disruptive students it makes it almost impossible for teachers to teach and students to learn. Unfortunately this is the condition of many inner city schools.

Agreed, and sadly there is no satisfactory remedy for this in most cases.

 

[Hank77]

Many trades are tool oriented but I sure do regret picking up a wrench. I should've went to college.

I have a family member who feels exactly the same way. He graduated from high school with grades that would have gotten him into college. Instead he went immediately to work. He's done OK but he hasn't done what he would have really loved.
He really loves the outdoors. Within a few years he was kicking himself for not doing the four years of college that he needed to be a game warden, but by then he had married and had children, he just couldn't afford the time or the money to go.

 

[jayem]

Looking back on my education, in public school as well as the Army courses I took for my military occupation (MOS artillery surveyor), it occurs to me that most course subjects are easily learned with a modicum of effort. It is extraneous outside influences and attitudes that get in the way. My conclusion is that barring mental disorder or deficiency anyone can learn most anything being taught in our public schools, regardless of income or status. All that is required is a little more effort on the part of the students.

I agree. Parents and the school environment play a role, but the the student's personal motivation to learn is still most important. A teacher has the greatest impact not by filling heads with facts, but by motivating a student to take his education seriously.

 

[dgiharris]

I think the problem we have as old crusty adults is we forget the mindset of a child and teen.

I think the biggest problem with education in this country, especially kids in low income areas is a serious lack of hope.

First, let us begin with the premise that perception is reality. What you see around you, what you hear around you, what you personally experience is your sole reality when you are young. Sure, you see stuff on TV but it isn't real. What is real is what you experienced yesterday or saw the other week on the streets...

One of the problems I have with education in America and in academia is that there isn't a good enough job showing how A leads to B leads to C... We tell kids, "get good grades, go to college..." but seriously what does that mean? How does me reading some stuffy old book from 1832 and writing a book report translate into me making money and getting a job when the factory in my town just shut down and everyone I know is losing their homes?

I've tutored countless kids and it amazes me how so many of them lack for a North Star. They lack CONCRETE direction and examples of "how to make it".

There is a difference between saying "get good grades, go to college, then get a job" and showing through example HOW school will enable them to better their lives and get what they want out of the game of life.

The above directly and indirectly impacts "hope". It has been my experience that kids that have hope, kids that believe school can get them out of the hood or trailer park or ghetto or their abusive family... these kids have no problem studying and getting good grades.

The paradox, irony, and problem is very basic... How do you instill hope to someone for whom their every experience points to a bleak futile future. How do you have hope when you can't see a path forward?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the path doesn't exist. The path does exist. However, if you don't see it, it might as well not exist.

And back to my original point. We are dealing with children, not adults. Kids don't know what they don't know...

 

[Nithavela]

Teens that just got through puberty have other things in mind than how they'll make money in 10 years. Most can't plan past the next weekend.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I want to breach the subject of student, especially poor and disadvantaged students, responsibility regarding their own education.

What does "poor and disadvantaged" have to do with it? Why would financially poor students have any less personal responsibility than any other students?

I think that your use of these terms (one of which I completely reject, as I do the existence of Bigfoot) is part of the problem. We have lowered the bar of expectation for some kids, and they know we have. They live down to our expectations.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What does "poor and disadvantaged" have to do with it? Why would financially poor students have any less personal responsibility than any other students?

I think that your use of these terms (one of which I completely reject, as I do the existence of Bigfoot) is part of the problem. We have lowered the bar of expectation for some kids, and they know we have. They live down to our expectations.

Nowhere did I imply that they had less responsibility.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think the problem we have as old crusty adults is we forget the mindset of a child and teen.

I think the biggest problem with education in this country, especially kids in low income areas is a serious lack of hope.

First, let us begin with the premise that perception is reality. What you see around you, what you hear around you, what you personally experience is your sole reality when you are young. Sure, you see stuff on TV but it isn't real. What is real is what you experienced yesterday or saw the other week on the streets...

One of the problems I have with education in America and in academia is that there isn't a good enough job showing how A leads to B leads to C... We tell kids, "get good grades, go to college..." but seriously what does that mean? How does me reading some stuffy old book from 1832 and writing a book report translate into me making money and getting a job when the factory in my town just shut down and everyone I know is losing their homes?

I've tutored countless kids and it amazes me how so many of them lack for a North Star. They lack CONCRETE direction and examples of "how to make it".

There is a difference between saying "get good grades, go to college, then get a job" and showing through example HOW school will enable them to better their lives and get what they want out of the game of life.

The above directly and indirectly impacts "hope". It has been my experience that kids that have hope, kids that believe school can get them out of the hood or trailer park or ghetto or their abusive family... these kids have no problem studying and getting good grades.

The paradox, irony, and problem is very basic... How do you instill hope to someone for whom their every experience points to a bleak futile future. How do you have hope when you can't see a path forward?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the path doesn't exist. The path does exist. However, if you don't see it, it might as well not exist.

And back to my original point. We are dealing with children, not adults. Kids don't know what they don't know...

The world is like a picture puzzle with room for many different shaped pieces, while the education system only produces a few different shapes. What chance does a kid have if his 'piece' doesn't fit into the big puzzle.

Some industries are changing from qualifying new hires based on their formal education to their actual talents and abilities. This is good, like allowing "walk on's" to try out in sports.

 

[dgiharris]

The world is like a picture puzzle with room for many different shaped pieces, while the education system only produces a few different shapes. What chance does a kid have if his 'piece' doesn't fit into the big puzzle.

Some industries are changing from qualifying new hires based on their formal education to their actual talents and abilities. This is good, like allowing "walk on's" to try out in sports.

I wish we could rethink education in this country.

You are absolutely right, school only produces a "few shapes".

What we need is more vocational and apprentice programs in high school. I'd love to see more woodshop, automobile maintenance, electrician, landscaping, type courses as well as more "work from home Internet" type programs like "Making money from youtube", SEO, social media marketing, etc. For some kids, studying Shakespeare or learning the quadratic formula is just a complete and total waste of their time.

 

[dgiharris]

What does "poor and disadvantaged" have to do with it? Why would financially poor students have any less personal responsibility than any other students?

I think that your use of these terms (one of which I completely reject, as I do the existence of Bigfoot) is part of the problem. We have lowered the bar of expectation for some kids, and they know we have. They live down to our expectations.

It isn't about lowering the bar of expectations. I think of it more in terms of acknowledging basic reality.
In terms of education, poor and disadvantaged students have quantifiable and tangible impediments to their education that middle class and affluent students do not. That isn't an opinion, that is a fact. Acknowledging that fact is not "lowering the bar".

The reason imo this is important is because our entire economy and socio-political structure is connected. These kids will become adults and part of the labor force and overall structure. They can either be contributing tax paying members to society or they could be a cost to society in terms of social programs or worse, prison.

So it is in our own selfish interest to try to describe the problem as accurately as possible so we can better implement solutions.

For me, it isn't a question of right or wrong or my delicate sensibilities and opinions on should and should not... no, for me it is about the bottom line.

but back to your point. No one is arguing to "lower the bar of expectation.."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Nowhere did I imply that they had less responsibility.

"Poor, and disadvantage" implies it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It isn't about lowering the bar of expectations. I think of it more in terms of acknowledging basic reality.
In terms of education, poor and disadvantaged students have quantifiable and tangible impediments to their education that middle class and affluent students do not. That isn't an opinion, that is a fact. Acknowledging that fact is not "lowering the bar".

The reason imo this is important is because our entire economy and socio-political structure is connected. These kids will become adults and part of the labor force and overall structure. They can either be contributing tax paying members to society or they could be a cost to society in terms of social programs or worse, prison.

So it is in our own selfish interest to try to describe the problem as accurately as possible so we can better implement solutions.

For me, it isn't a question of right or wrong or my delicate sensibilities and opinions on should and should not... no, for me it is about the bottom line.

but back to your point. No one is arguing to "lower the bar of expectation.."

Exactly. My point is that the poor and disadvantaged have to find a way to succeed. We want them to catch up with the rest of us, not drag the rest of us down to their achievement level. Our expectation is that they will try harder.

A classroom filled with poor and disadvantaged kids has many more 'resources' to bring to bear than the teacher has. They should use them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

"Poor, and disadvantage" implies it.

You inferred that.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You inferred that.

Pity language, e.g. "underprivileged" is used to spin and manipulate.

 

[dgiharris]

....A classroom filled with poor and disadvantaged kids has many more 'resources' to bring to bear than the teacher has. They should use them.

Does this attitude mean that kids need to be as accountable as adults?

My fear with these types of arguments is that we can't help but argue from our perspective as old crusty adults that have been around the block a few times.

However, kids are kids. Their perceptions are way different.

I fear we may have a tendency to say, "Well, the kid is responsible for his future" and then we wash our hands of them and their situation. We basically say, "Yeah, these groups of kids have it harder. But so what. buck up. Pick yourself up by the bootstraps yada yada yada and be successful no matter what and work harder yada yada yada..."

Ultimately, I don't want us to forget that we are talking about children. And kids don't know what they don't know.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

As high school graduation neared a teacher that I didn't really like cautioned me that if I didn't pass his course I wouldn't graduate with my class, and I was failing his class. This was totally unacceptable to me so I got down to business and studied hard. I passed with a B grade, much to my, and his, surprise, and went on to graduate with my class.

Had your teacher not made the effort to caution you, do you think you would have righted yourself in time to graduate with your class?