What is the scriptural basis for Calvinism?

[NJBeliever]

I asked this question in the "Ask a Calvinist forum" and since I was told I should discuss that there I am asking it here. What verses in the Bible support Calvinism? In the interest of full disclosure, I think that Calvinism is unbiblical. Any answers would be appreciated. God bless.

 

[heymikey80]

I asked this question in the "Ask a Calvinist forum" and since I was told I should discuss that there I am asking it here. What verses in the Bible support Calvinism? In the interest of full disclosure, I think that Calvinism is unbiblical. Any answers would be appreciated. God bless.

It's odd you'd ask the question here in terms of your opinion, yet assert that Calvinism is unbiblical there without qualification?

Calvinism operates from Biblical foundation, so it would depend what of Calvinism you consider unbiblical, what answers would come to bear in your case.

 

[NJBeliever]

It's odd you'd ask the question here in terms of your opinion, yet assert that Calvinism is unbiblical there without qualification?

Calvinism operates from Biblical foundation, so it would depend what of Calvinism you consider unbiblical, what answers would come to bear in your case.

I am asking the question to get substantive discussion. I disclosed my view because I don't want to come off like a fraud trying to "ambush" anyone under the guise of just being curious about it. I'm not in agreement with it. So I just wanted people to know my perspective.

If you can provide any verses that substantiate the 5 points of calvinism that would be great. But if you want more specifics we could start with the idea that the doctrine of election. God bless.

 

[heymikey80]

I guess we could start with ...

Romans 8:29-30 -- For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 9:15-24 -- For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

John 6:65 -- And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 6:37 -- All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:44 -- No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

This isn't exhaustive, I'm just picking up the standard texts. There are around 45 citations of Scripture in supporting the doctrine of election in Boettner's "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination". Again, it depends on what you wish to substantiate about election, what texts you would present.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Is there an accurate accounting of the words of John Calvin on his death bed? Or are there "several versions" of the story so we can never be sure?

Peace,

Cos

 

[heymikey80]

Is there an accurate accounting of the words of John Calvin on his death bed? Or are there "several versions" of the story so we can never be sure?

What are you looking for?

The opposition is going to spread adverse rumors, but frankly they weren't present at Calvin's bedside. His advocates were there, and they were his advocates.

If you're looking for someone without an interest both present and listening in on his words, you're looking for someone who didn't exist. The most you can get is among the consistency and trustworthiness of the reports of people who were there.

 

[AMR]

If you can provide any verses that substantiate the 5 points of calvinism that would be great.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 17:9, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 8:44, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 8:8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:26

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - See: Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9

LIMITED ATONEMENT - See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Luke 1:68, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 10:14 -18, John 17:2,6,9; Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-9, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 5:25, Hebrews 10:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - See: Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 5:24 - the perfect tense verb should read has already passed from death unto life; John 6:37-39,44, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 2:1-10, Philippians 2:12-13, Colossians 2:13, James 1:18, Tutus 3:5, 1 John 5:1 - another perfect tense verb is used here and should be translated has already been born of God, 1 John 3:7, John 1: 12-13 but of God.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God’s workmanship, Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12b & 4:18, 1 Peter 1:4-5, I John 2:19, Jude 24-25.

Explanations:

TOTAL DEPRAVITY (Total Inability) - The Calvinist believes, as did Martin Luther, that man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - The Calvinist believes that God’s election is truly unconditional. The foreknowledge of God is based upon His decree, plan, and purpose; it is the expression of His will and good pleasure, not a response to man's free-will choices. Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity. In this regard the Calvinist understands election as an example of God’s "love before time."

LIMITED ATONEMENT - The Calvinist believes that in order to accomplish the specific will of the Father, Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect. Christ died for the sins of men without distinction as to race or nationality (that is, Jew or Gentile). Christ provided a complete and effectual atonement for their sins. Those whom Christ redeemed, Christ really and truly redeemed (actual not potential). Though infinite in value, Christ's atoning work was specific in its design. Some Calvinists prefer to call this "definite atonement" or "particular redemption". The death of Christ at Calvary does not make men savable, but rather it saves men completely. The Cross is a completed, successful work that requires no assistance from man. The Calvinist believes that Christ died for all of the sins of the elect.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - The Calvinist believes that the Holy Spirit, in agreement with the electing will of the Father and the atoning work of the Son, does in the fullness of time quicken the dead spirit of a man and give to him the gift of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For the Calvinist, the logical order of salvation is regeneration first, followed by faith/believing. Since dead men do not respond, God must make them alive first; regeneration, of necessity, precedes any action or activity on the part of man, including faith and repentance. Hence, every single individual upon whom the Spirit of God moves savingly is regenerated, born again, adopted, grafted in, and saved eternally.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - The Calvinist believes that since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.

See also the WCF and the Scripture texts cited for each portion here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

AMR

 

[Covenant Heart]

Your Original Post --

raises several matters of which you – and indeed many of the comfortably reformed – are unaware. My reply may not open the kind of discussion that you hoped to elicit. But it may offer a new way of understanding who and what we are; and that can be a good thing.

First, I’d like to distinguish our faith (here understood as what we believe) from the way that we hold that faith. So when you ask, ‘what verses in the Bible support Calvinism,’ my intuitive response is, ‘the Bible itself.’ That doesn’t give you much help. You’re looking for proof texts. But Reformed believers find proof-texting less than satisfying. Certainly, we cite Scripture, although we read texts differently than the Remonstrant party. It is more our way to offer theological statements with a perspective informed by a broad representation of Biblical passages. Those who know Reformed theology understand that this is not so much a matter of one’s ‘stand on’ this or that question; it is rather that Reformed theology is an interpretation of the whole of our undoubted Christian faith.

Consider our doctrine of depravity. When they ask for texts that support Reformed theology, people expect us to produce a list of passages – ‘you do not believe because you are not my sheep’ (Jo 10:26, ‘he has … hardened their hearts so that they will not believe and be converted’ (Jo 12:40). If we oblige and offer the texts, we in turn expect to be presented with an alternative list – ‘he enlightens everyone coming into the world’ (Jo 1:9) and other texts which supposedly speak counter to the texts we offer.

But that can’t be. Can it. And what is the point? One believer cites Jo 1:5 – the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Another believer cites a text four verses later – there was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man (Jo 1:9). Again, what is the point of pitting text against text? There HAS to be a better way of doing theology than proof-texting.

It is characteristic of Reformed theology to formulate questions from what we face in life. We search the Scripture to learn what God might say about these things. We are Biblical – even if we don’t proof-text. Let me try to put some flesh on this thing on the question of our depravity.
In the Genesis prologue, we see the culpable disturbance of shalom when our first parents disobeyed. They were banished from the garden, and Yahweh stationed the cherubim with the flaming sword that turns in every direction to guard the way to the tree of life (Ge 3:24). This may strike you as a very different way of thinking. But in my perspective, this illustrates the human predicament.

This approach can be extended throughout Scripture. We see glimpses of it in the rationale for the flood – that every intention was only evil continually. It is in the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. The plagues YHWH poured out on Egypt become part of apocalyptic tradition (seen in the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments that proceed from the Divine Throne Room (Re 4-5, cf. Re 9:20-21; 16:9-11). These are clearly patterned after Egypt’s judgments. And as in Egypt, so in eschatological Egypt; people do not repent.

Between Genesis and the Revelation, are other lessons. The sower and the seed, the wicked tenants, etc. all add to our understanding of what began to be revealed in the Genesis prologue. Suppose, NJ, that we take all such passages, lay them out before us, and ask, ‘what does the Spirit lead the church to confess about these things.’ So we go through that process (struggle!) to find the Word’s answer to our question(s) about depravity. That is how we do theology. When you read the Canons of Dort, you find the most remarkable language about HOW the Spirit works to regenerate us. It uses the language of softening what was hardened, opening what was closed, healing what was wounded. That’s grace. And Scripture likewise reveals the goodness, faithfulness and tenderness of God – often in the same contexts in which he sends such judgments as I mentioned.

Speaking of judgments, might I return just a moment to the Revelation? John’s strategy is NOT to predict specific events in coded language. It is rather to expose the nature and meaning of the collision of God’s kingdom and the kingdom of this world. I also believe that we need to understand that owing to the fall, we come with the beast’s mark. All of us. But in the Revelation, there is a critically important parallel to the mark of the beast. It is called ‘the seal of God,’ which I believe is the mark of baptism, the sign of water which points and calls us to the reality of God’s promise to give us his Spirit.

Ultimately, we can’t know how or why God’s wondrous grace is made known to us. We can say that the Spirit uses the word, church discipline and sacraments. We can say that God uses the lessons learned, the mistakes made and godly ministry to set us aright. But always, it is God’s work. We cannot know ultimately what or how he does these things. The wind blows. You don’t know from where it comes, or where it is going. But you do know when it has come. So it is with God’s kingdom.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[ADNox2]

I flat out denied God. Yes, I did follow him whole heatedly before. I really was a follower of Christ then. Yes, I let my environment take control which eventually led me to slowly slip away from God. Yes, later I missed being with God and returned, when I realized how empty I had become with out him. I believe I was separated from God. I can't think of any reason why anyone could consider me a Christian at that point. If so... then how? I really was a believer prior but completely lost control thereafter. I was an unrepentive sinner. Yet someone going by the rules of Calvinism would claim that I really wasn't a believer before. I guess I was just faking. I must have been pretty good because I even fooled myself. Or perhaps I was still worthy of salvation as I consistently ignored God and partook willingly in self devastating sin without regret. Who are we to say that if somewhere in the Bible or elsewhere for that matter it talks about someone falling from Grace, that they never were real believers in the first place? Are the chosen also judges of faith? I think believing that somehow you are spiritually invincible once you except Christ is foolish. I think once you experience Christ it is difficult to allow yourself to separate from him... but not impossible. So I am sorry for getting long winded, but when God calls for everyone to repent, (Acts 17:30), and Jesus weeps over Jerusalem says things like "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matthew 23:37: I can't understand why A.) God would make salvation so complicated. and B.) Why he would make it impossible for us to do on our own. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[AMR]

So I am sorry for getting long winded, but when God calls for everyone to repent, (Acts 17:30), and Jesus weeps over Jerusalem says things like "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Matthew 23:37: I can't understand why A.) God would make salvation so complicated. and B.) Why he would make it impossible for us to do on our own. Just doesn't make sense.

In the OP it was requested that Scriptural support be supplied. Much was given much, yet you have not interacted with any of that Scripture. Instead you appeal to verses that are easily reconciled with the support from Scripture you have been given.

God’s decree makes the futurition of all events certain according to His plan. That decree also encompasses the means by which His will is worked out. These means include the moral free agency of His creatures, that is, they can chooses according to their greatest desires. These means also include the foolishness of preaching, including the free offer and call to repentance, by which the elect are regenerated from spiritual death, turning their hearts of stone into hearts of flesh so that they will believe. The elect cannot perish, it is true. But until they are regenerated they remain, along with all others, under the wrath of God. God has graciously chosen to elect some, without considering the merit of those elected, and leave the others in their natural state of rebellion, out of a fallen mass of humanity. All of fallen humanity deserved nothing but God’s righteous justice. The miracle is that He deigns to save anyone. Grace is getting what you don't deserve.

As for the lament of our Lord over Jerusalem, Christ is teaching that the sins of those to whom He is preaching (Chorazin and Bethsaida) are far greater than the sins of those He refers to, e.g., Tyre, and that the judgment will reveal as such. Our Lord was incensed at the privileged (Christ walked among them!) who refused to repent. Their greater privileges will bring greater judgment upon them. All who heard this message knew of the abominations of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, thus Christ’s words drove home even more deeply the sins of his listeners. This passage and its parallels is not about the foreknowledge of God seeing what would be or not be done, nor is it about libertarian free will. It is about reviewing the facts at hand and judging what all parties would have done in light of these facts.

It would be fruitful if you could go back and review the Scriptures offered and then for you to present your views with respect to these many Scriptures and how you interpret them differently.

Lastly here and in another thread you opined:

I can't understand why A.) God would make salvation so complicated. and B.) Why he would make it impossible for us to do on our own. Just doesn't make sense.

A) It is not complicated, as a simple walk through Romans will show.

The Good News: Romans 3:23; 6:23; 8:1; 10:9; 10:13

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13
For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

B) The non-believer cannot save themselves, for the spiritually dead...

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Indeed, unless we are quickened to life by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, through the ordinary means of the hearing of the gospel, we will remain in our total enmity towards God, unable to do anything but sin more or sin less, hating God with every breath we draw.

AMR

 

[NJBeliever]

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8.21, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 17:9, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 8:44, Romans 3:10-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 8:8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:26

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - See: Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9

LIMITED ATONEMENT - See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Luke 1:68, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 10:14 -18, John 17:2,6,9; Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-9, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 5:25, Hebrews 10:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - See: Ezekiel 11:19-20, John 5:24 - the perfect tense verb should read has already passed from death unto life; John 6:37-39,44, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 2:1-10, Philippians 2:12-13, Colossians 2:13, James 1:18, Tutus 3:5, 1 John 5:1 - another perfect tense verb is used here and should be translated has already been born of God, 1 John 3:7, John 1: 12-13 but of God.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:36, John 10:28, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God’s workmanship, Philippians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12b & 4:18, 1 Peter 1:4-5, I John 2:19, Jude 24-25.



AMR

Hey AMR, thanks for your response. First off, I was the person who made the OP, not the poster you replied to above. And I would like to examine some of the scriptures but I am already not being completely responsive because I am not going to address all of them (you listed a lot). But I think that many of the verses that Calvinists use are not in proper context or are just being misunderstood in light of what we are taught in the Old Testament about Israel. I think understanding Israel's Old Testament roles and covenants is very key to understanding much of the Bible.

So anyways.

Genesis 6: 5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

In context this verse is discussing the state of humanity after the inter-breeding of the fallen angelic beings (the "sons of god" or B'nai Ha Elohim) with human women. The hybrid offspring were so corrupted that evil and wickedness reached unprecedented levels for that time. This is why we had the flood. Ironically, this passage also refutes the calvinist conception of God's Sovereignty because we see later that The Lord "repents" of making mankind at all.

Genesis 8:21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I will certainly agree with this verse as stating that we have a sinful heart, from the womb in fact. But none of this is saying " The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God."

Psalm 51:5; 58:3 - Again, I agree.

Isiaah 53: 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

All this is saying is that everyone's a sinner and that Christ has borne our sin. It's not meeting your definition of total depravity.

Romans 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This verse is cited often by Calvinists and is ripped out of scripture. The context is that Paul is trying to persuade the Jews to not esteem themselves greater than gentiles. Verse 9 makes this clear:

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Then in verse 10, Paul quotes Psalm 14 which is a Psalm regarding a people who deny the very existence of God:

Psalm 14: 1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul uses this passage to demonstrate that we are all guilty of sin before God. But in the context of that passage God is discussing people when they reach the point (hence "become filthy") that they even deny God's existence.

Romans 5:12 - I agree.

Romans 8:8 -- This verse is interesting because it leads to an example of someone who did please God before he was saved.

Acts 10:1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, 2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. 3He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. 4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Now Cornelius at this point was unsaved. He had not even heard the Gospel of Christ Jesus. Yet, not only was he trying to seek God, he was greeted by an angel who personally told him that The Lord was pleased with his prayers and alms. So this already disproves your definition of Total Depravity.

Unconditional Election
Deuteronomy 7: 6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. 7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:



This verse is perfect because it actually proves my point on Election: in the Bible, "election" does not mean "election to salvation." This verse is a perfect example of that. Israel was indeed chosen. But not to all be saved. They were chosen for a special role and service, with rewards that come with that (earthly ones, i.e., land). They bear witness to God, they bring forth the Messiah and were to be a light to the gentiles. The election represents their covenant relationship with God, not their pre-determined salvation.

Isaiah 55: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I dont know how this verse supports unconditional election at all. This entire chapter is about the lost seeking God. First the lost in general then disobedient Israel. GOd then says His thoughts or Higher than our thoughts. The verse you cite has no relation to God setting out to save whoever He wants outside of man's choice. He is urging us to choose Him!! He says :
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;

The Lord is inviting those who are athirst to come. He is inviting and urging people to choose Him. To stop wasting time on worldly pursuits and come to Him. He says "incline your ear.." This is all about man's volition.

John 6: 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Unfortunately this verse is also completely taken out of context. In this chapter (in proper context), the Jews had witnessed the miracle of the feeding of 5,000 and were intending to make Jesus a king by force (6:15). This was not out of repentance or faith. None of that was here. In fact they reveal their motivations later on when we find out they are seeking more bread (6:26). Christ rejects those who come to Him on these terms. So what did they have to do to be accepted? He tells them!
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus Our Lord clearly tells them to believe on Him. Repentance and faith get salvation. Then they can be a part of those "given" to Jesus from the Father. He lays it all out for them. They ask specifically how they can do a "work of God." Jesus' answer is clear. And then he reiterates later on in the discussion: 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

So why were these Jews not being accepted? 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Jesus had every opportunity to tell these men that they were excluded from salvation from the beginning of time and could do nothing about it. But no, it's all about belief. They had no faith. The Calvinist is forced to say Jesus is rebuking these men for not having faith which He is knowingly and purposefully wittholding from them. This position is illogical and makes Jesus borderline cruel. But again, that is why context is so important.

Speaking of context, that leads to this verse. John 15:!6 16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, The context for this verse is in the whole chapter and just the rest of the verse. Jesus is discussing the choosing of men for discipleship, not salvation. the verse continues: that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Clearly, this is talking about the disciples bringing in more believers to the Church. And being able to ask the Father for things for the mission in prayer. It has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

I will continue but I am getting a little tired. lol. I hope this will start to show where i am coming from though. I don't think any of these verse are being interpreted in their proper context so they sound like calvinist strong points on their face. But further looking into the scripture shows otherwise. God bless.

 

[AMR]

…I think that many of the verses that Calvinists use are not in proper context or are just being misunderstood in light of what we are taught in the Old Testament about Israel. I think understanding Israel's Old Testament roles and covenants is very key to understanding much of the Bible.

Genesis 6:5
In context this verse is discussing the state of humanity after the inter-breeding of the fallen angelic beings (the "sons of god" or B'nai Ha Elohim) with human women. The hybrid offspring were so corrupted that evil and wickedness reached unprecedented levels for that time. This is why we had the flood. Ironically, this passage also refutes the calvinist conception of God's Sovereignty because we see later that The Lord "repents" of making mankind at all.

In Genesis 6:5 we see that the LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. This verse does not teach that angels, spiritual beings, were participating in sexual intercourse with humans. Nor does the anthropopathism of God repenting imply He somehow changes His mind. As we see in the clearly didactic teaching of Numbers 23:19, God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Genesis 8:21I will certainly agree with this verse as stating that we have a sinful heart, from the womb in fact. But none of this is saying "The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God."

When God states everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood it is not allowing an exception, for in my previous post I provided the Scriptures that teach the depravity of the unregenerate, whose acts of civil goodness, such as giving to the poor, helping the old lady across the road, are but filthy rags (Is. 64:6) in God’s eyes, for these acts are wrongly motivated, that is, not done for the glory of God (Romans 11:36; 1 Cor 10:31) whom the unregenerate deny even exists!

Isiaah 53:6 All this is saying is that everyone's a sinner and that Christ has borne our sin. It's not meeting your definition of total depravity.

The totality of the passage, All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all., clearly meets the meaning of the unregenerate’s total inability. You appear to be supporting a synergistic view of salvation, in that the unregenerate can somehow cooperate with their own resurrection from spiritual death.

Romans 3:10 Paul uses this passage to demonstrate that we are all guilty of sin before God. But in the context of that passage God is discussing people when they reach the point (hence "become filthy") that they even deny God's existence.

Are you trying to claim that there is some degree of sin here, in that denying God’s existence is something special versus Paul’s usage of the Scriptures to argue should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one. The passage is quite explicit in demonstrating the inability of the unregenerate to seek God with their own volition.

Romans 8:8 -- This verse is interesting because it leads to an example of someone who did please God before he was saved.

You will have to make that case, since we see from verses seven and eight, For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.

Acts 10:1-4
Now Cornelius at this point was unsaved. He had not even heard the Gospel of Christ Jesus. Yet, not only was he trying to seek God, he was greeted by an angel who personally told him that The Lord was pleased with his prayers and alms. So this already disproves your definition of Total Depravity.

You assume that just because the entry of a new character in the Bible that what you are reading describes a new salvific event. With this logic, you would have to explain the situation with Apollos, who was regenerated, yet did not know Christ had risen. Do you think that when Aquila and Priscilla instruct him, Apollos "got saved"? The answer is clearly no, for just as Apollos was already converted, so was Cornelius when we encounter him for the first time in Scripture. This is quite clear from the passage in question, given that Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing man, as was everyone in his household. He gave generously to the poor and prayed regularly to God.

Deuteronomy 7:6 This verse is perfect because it actually proves my point on Election: in the Bible, "election" does not mean "election to salvation." This verse is a perfect example of that. Israel was indeed chosen. But not to all be saved. They were chosen for a special role and service, with rewards that come with that (earthly ones, i.e., land). They bear witness to God, they bring forth the Messiah and were to be a light to the gentiles. The election represents their covenant relationship with God, not their pre-determined salvation.

You are missing the point here. The point is that election (to salvation or to a specific purpose) is not conditioned on merit, not conditioned on what someone does and God sees them doing, but solely because God had decided to love some before time. The passage in question is specifically teaching this point and not the point you are trying to draw into it. The meritless nature of unconditional choice by God is borne out by the passage, i.e., The Lord did not set his heart on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you were the smallest of all nations!

Isaiah 55:11 I dont know how this verse supports unconditional election at all. This entire chapter is about the lost seeking God. First the lost in general then disobedient Israel. GOd then says His thoughts or Higher than our thoughts. The verse you cite has no relation to God setting out to save whoever He wants outside of man's choice. He is urging us to choose Him!!

Er, no, the chapter is about the free offer of salvation…from God, which accomplishes its ends solely by His own will, not our merit of deciding or choosing, for I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.

John 6:44 Unfortunately this verse is also completely taken out of context.

The context is clear, For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.Those that God has given to Christ (John 17:24) will not be lost. Your other citations are but the teachings from Scripture of the gospel’s general call. Clearly, if all that God the Father gave do indeed come, necessarily those who do not come were not given, for God is certainly not impotent. Further, outside of the Father's giving (drawing), no one is able to come.

Jesus had every opportunity to tell these men that they were excluded from salvation from the beginning of time and could do nothing about it. But no, it's all about belief. They had no faith. The Calvinist is forced to say Jesus is rebuking these men for not having faith which He is knowingly and purposefully wittholding from them. This position is illogical and makes Jesus borderline cruel. But again, that is why context is so important.

This is the common tactic of persons who do not have a clear understanding of the reformed view and the teachings of Scripture. God is not purposefully withholding something from anyone. God is not going out of his way to send people to Hell who don’t want to go there.

Your view wrongly assumes that if we are commanded to do something it is possible for us to accomplish that task. When we hear what we cannot do we are driven to humility and reverence to the God who supplies faith (Ephesians 2:8). The gospel call is for all men who can hear, but only those who are chosen and regenerated will believe. (Romans 9:16)

Jesus told the man with the withered hand to stretch out his arm. Jesus told Peter to come to him on the water. Jesus told the lame man to get up, carry his bed and walk. These were all commands that took no account for the will of man. It did not matter how much these people wanted to do these things, it was the power of Christ that came with the commandment that empowered them to do what they were told. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing.

Thanks for taking the time to respond! I have a suggestion. Instead of cherry-picking from the Scriptural support verses that has been offered, how about picking one of the aspects, say, total depravity, and dealing with it substantively. This will prevent the discussion from veering all over the place.

AMR

 

[NJBeliever]

In Genesis 6:5 we see that the LORD observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. This verse does not teach that angels, spiritual beings, were participating in sexual intercourse with humans. Nor does the anthropopathism of God repenting imply He somehow changes His mind. As we see in the clearly didactic teaching of Numbers 23:19, God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Genesis 6: 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The term B'nai Ha Elohim or "sons of God" is a term that is only used to reference angelic beings. And yes, they did indeed take human women as wives and had children with them. Again, in context, this is what the passage is clearly saying.

And what is your definition of "repent"? Because that is what it says about The Lord with respect to creating humanity.

So the unprecedented evil that is being described is a result of this inter-breeding.

The totality of the passage, All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all., clearly meets the meaning of the unregenerate’s total inability. You appear to be supporting a synergistic view of salvation, in that the unregenerate can somehow cooperate with their own resurrection from spiritual death.

This verse does not say that we cannot do anything to please God. It just says that we have gone astray, which is a metaphor for the fact that we have sinned.

Are you trying to claim that there is some degree of sin here, in that denying God’s existence is something special versus Paul’s usage of the Scriptures to argue should we conclude that we Jews are better than others? No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin. As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous— not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one. The passage is quite explicit in demonstrating the inability of the unregenerate to seek God with their own volition.

I am not making a distinction between those who deny God's existence and others, the Bible is! Verse 1 (again looking at the context), calls them fools! It starts of identifying them specifically, so yes, it is a distinction. We all sin, but continued sin leading one to be a reprobate is a process (Romans 1). Those who have reached the point of denying God's existence then meet what is said in verses 2 and 3. Again, this is just plain reading of Psalm 14's first 3 verses.

You assume that just because the entry of a new character in the Bible that what you are reading describes a new salvific event... This is quite clear from the passage in question, given that Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing man, as was everyone in his household. He gave generously to the poor and prayed regularly to God.

So here, you are adding to Scripture. We are never told of any salvific event. What we know is that Cornelius was UNSAVED. You said the unsaved man cannot seek, nor please God. Thus already we see this disproves your definition since he did both. And it also sounds like you are changing BIblical salvation. What is the "salvific event"?

You are missing the point here. The point is that election (to salvation or to a specific purpose) is not conditioned on merit, not conditioned on what someone does and God sees them doing, but solely because God had decided to love some before time.

My point is that election does not mean "election to salvation." Nowhere in the Bible does the word election mean "salvation" in context. The Jews were elect. Jesus was elect. It doesn't mean salvation.

Er, no, the chapter is about the free offer of salvation…from God, which accomplishes its ends solely by His own will, not our merit of deciding or choosing, for I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it.

None of this again speaks of any elect. God is inviting men to use their volition to come to Him. You're just ignoring my points here.

The context is clear, For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.Those that God has given to Christ (John 17:24) will not be lost. Your other citations are but the teachings from Scripture of the gospel’s general call. Clearly, if all that God the Father gave do indeed come, necessarily those who do not come were not given, for God is certainly not impotent. Further, outside of the Father's giving (drawing), no one is able to come.

You have to look at the verse in context. Jesus explains what He means. You are just choosing to impose your own interpretation. Why? They ask Jesus what they have to do? He says nothing of pre-printed lists and that some can do nothing at all to be saved, because they never will be. He simply says it's their unbelief that is the problem. not the calvinist model of salvation.

This is the common tactic of persons who do not have a clear understanding of the reformed view and the teachings of Scripture. God is not purposefully withholding something from anyone. God is not going out of his way to send people to Hell who don’t want to go there.

But yet, Jesus is getting angry with some who He knows have zero chance of going to Heaven because they have not been chosen and thus is still illogical.

When Jesus explains salvation He doesn't say anything in the defintions your are providing. When He is asked about salvation his answers are directly about belief. When He says He's chosen someone, it does not mean "to salvation" (in context). He never mentions events or things of that nature. That's just a plain reading of the scripture.

 

[oscar615]

Genesis 6: 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The term B'nai Ha Elohim or "sons of God" is a term that is only used to reference angelic beings. And yes, they did indeed take human women as wives and had children with them. Again, in context, this is what the passage is clearly saying.

So are you saying spiritual beings had intercourse with physical beings? How exactly do they do that? Think about it for a moment. Are you sure that angels have sexual organs? Are they really male and female? And if non corporeal how would they do this with corporeal beings? Can they change their being from non corporeal to corporeal? Where does the word say any of this?

 

[1611AV]

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

he does not change his mind

What do you make of jonah 3:10

Jonah Chapter 3

1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,

2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered [him] with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

7 And he caused [it] to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that [is] in their hands.

9 Who can tell [if] God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[razeontherock]

Over 2 weeks and not a response, to any of the last 3 posts? There are some good points there.