what is the sabbath?

NaLuvena · Jul 28, 2009

Inquisition said:
You are aware that the current concept of Judaism is a construct that developed after the rise of Christianity? Rabbinical Judaism is not the same Judaism as was practiced by Christ, or more importantly, it is not the religion handed down to Israel by God.

I am aware that Judaism that is practiced nowdays is different from what was practiced in the time of Jesus and also differs from what God gave Moses.

However, they still observe the Sabbath Day they were told to observe. The way the observe differs, but the day (which is what you originally asked about) is the same.

That Day was shown in no uncertain terms in Exodus 16, when God did not send the manna.

Inquisition said:
A question: do you think it matters to God which day of the week we observe as a day of rest?

It does. Why else would God specifically point out a particular day in his command regarding Sabbath keeping, and confirm it by a physical act?

I also have a question. Do you believe that God whats us to understand His will, and to know what He wants us to do?

PROPHECYKID · Jul 28, 2009

There is nothing in the bible nullifying the Sabbath nor any command to honor the day of his resurrection. If God was knew he was going to abolish the Sabbath he would have never included it in his eternal law. The fact is that in the 4th century, sunday laws were passed to enforce sunday keeping. It is not a command of God. So most christians keep the tradition of man rather than the commandment of God. When that happens the bible says that those who do that worship him in vain.

It also needs to be understood that the 10 commandments have a different authority than the book of the law written by Moses. The bible itself shows this different. Whereas the book of the law and all its ordinances and sacrfices have been blotted out, the commandments are eternal. They are God's moral laws and God does not change, therefore his morals does not change either. It is much easier to give God our money than our time. On the 7th day of creation God blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it. To sanctify means to set apart for holy use. No other day was given that treatment. Did God do that for a show? He honoures his own Sabbath in the at his death, burial and resurrection, he rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

We all say we want to follow Jesus' example but when it comes to the Sabbath we say it was for the jews. We say that killing and stealing and adultery is wrong but when it comes to the Sabbath it was done away with. We all say we want to go to heaven, but Isaiah says that every sabbath we shall gather before him and worship him. And here we are sticking to man's traditions.

jarrettcpr · Jul 28, 2009

PROPHECYKID said:
There is nothing in the bible nullifying the Sabbath nor any command to honor the day of his resurrection. If God was knew he was going to abolish the Sabbath he would have never included it in his eternal law. The fact is that in the 4th century, sunday laws were passed to enforce sunday keeping. It is not a command of God. So most christians keep the tradition of man rather than the commandment of God. When that happens the bible says that those who do that worship him in vain.

It also needs to be understood that the 10 commandments have a different authority than the book of the law written by Moses. The bible itself shows this different. Whereas the book of the law and all its ordinances and sacrfices have been blotted out, the commandments are eternal. They are God's moral laws and God does not change, therefore his morals does not change either. It is much easier to give God our money than our time. On the 7th day of creation God blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it. To sanctify means to set apart for holy use. No other day was given that treatment. Did God do that for a show? He honoures his own Sabbath in the at his death, burial and resurrection, he rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

We all say we want to follow Jesus' example but when it comes to the Sabbath we say it was for the jews. We say that killing and stealing and adultery is wrong but when it comes to the Sabbath it was done away with. We all say we want to go to heaven, but Isaiah says that every sabbath we shall gather before him and worship him. And here we are sticking to man's traditions.

I agree with that, but the Sabbath is now our rest in Jesus. Not some day(s).

You can read some of the previous posts or go to this website who will make their case by using Scripture. What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

NaLuvena · Jul 28, 2009

jarrettcpr said:
The post was too long so there are two parts of this post...

No worries....

I've taken the liberty of deleting a lot of it (the quotes from the website) so that I could answer in one post. I hope you don't mind.

And just to set your mind at ease, I have read the material you are referring. I don't agree with the conclusions drawn, but that is why we are having this discussion IMO

jarrettcpr said:
1st part

Yes, we should try and follow the commandments, but we have to remember we are saved by Grace through faith in Jesus. No one can perfectly follow all of the commandments and laws, well other than Jesus.

I have no arguements with you on this. We are saved by grace through faith alone.

However, once we are saved, we are not free to do as we please. There is a way to live, laws to obey, and Jesus pointed this out.

Matthew 5:19

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Note that this whole "Sermon on the Mount" was only to the disciples, to people who had dedicated themselves to following Jesus. Jesus them told them that for a follower, if he breaks any of the commandments and teachs others to do likewise, will be called LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven.

Most importantly, he is not thrown out of the Kingdom. Just becomes a type of heavenly serf, if there be such a thing...

jarrettcpr said:
I don't fully get what you're saying (Unless once we believe is when we transfer all our sins; past, present, and future, to the blood of Christ). I don't bring any young flock, bulls, goats, lambs, rams, doves, and etc. when I sin intentionally or unintentionally. We're made righteous when we believe in Christ. There is no need for any further sacrifice payments, deeds, regulations, offerings, and etc. As even you said on your previous post.

Jesus has made the sacrifice that will take away all our sins. Past present and future.

However, have you confessed for all your sins? The future ones, cannot be confessed today, because we do not know what we will do then. When we sin, our conscience still convicts us, and we feel guilty, because we know that we have done wrong.

When that happens, we need to confess our sins, and repent, so that God can purify us.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

That is the spiritual equivalent of placing your hands on the head of the sacrificial animal. Note that in the OT, this, and the killing of the sacrifice were the only parts the sinner played in the sin sacrifice. The rest was done by the priest.

jarrettcpr said:
I was worried this was about salvation. All of this is about 'rewards' and not 'salvation'. So, if I do good deeds and somewhat try and sanctify myself but I do not completely obey all of the commandments, will I lose my 'rewards' or is the only way to keep your 'rewards' is when you perfectly obey the commandments. How does that process work? Keeping your 'rewards' even when none can perfectly follow the commandments? I mean we will slip up, and continue to sin. That's a given.

Salvation is a free gift. No effort (on our part) required, all we have to do is accept it. This is your right to enter Heaven only.

What you get when you get to heaven (this is your reward) is another matter. It depends on what you do with your life, once you're saved.

Matthew 19

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

For the 12 disciples, the entry was a gift of God to them. The 12 thrones was their reward for leaving everything and following Jesus.

jarrettcpr said:
The author addresses everything you mention. There is only 7 pages to read on that site. What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

I've read the material, and as I said, I disagree, because we have not entered the Rest yet.

jarrettcpr said:
2nd part of my post

Yes, I'm aware of that verse and know one can judge, a righteous judgement, but for me I refrain from judging. I always keep in mind the measure you use will be used against you. Though of course if I see something blatantly wrong, I will try and tell them you shouldn't do that.

So you still judge.

Like I was pointing out, we all do, so the only thing we can do, is to ensure that our judgement is righteous.

jarrettcpr said:
Well, yes we have 'things' to do when we believe in Christ. At the same time it's very individualistic. The one thing we have to do is "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Galatians 5:14)

If you try to fill that Law alone, it will lead you to the rest of the Law. That's because that Law is a summary of what we have to do. One example:

Luke 10

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Jesus defined a neighbour as one who has mercy on another. Therefore to keep that Law, we must have mercy on others.

Here are some Laws that define mercy even more specifically:

Exodus 23

1 "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness. 2 "Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit.
4 "If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.
6 "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. 7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
8 "Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.
9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.

jarrettcpr said:
I say it's futile becuase it is. It can't completly be done. Like a health nut who works out all the time, who eats healthy, and etc. I don't like to tell that person, but you're efforts are futile. You will die one day. Now, that doesn't mean we don't have to work out and not eat healthy. Just a point, that I'm sure you can understand. God will make us perfect.

But it can be completely done. We do not complete it, God does!!!

Colossians 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

And we have a part to play in it as well!!!

2 Timothy 2:15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Titus 2

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

God's grace teaches us to say "NO". Our part is saying "NO"!!! to ungodliness and worldly passions. God's power ensures that when we say "NO" the enemy complies.

James 4:7

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

jarrettcpr said:
I saw the bolded part, that they lied to the Holy Spirit, but the notes in my Bible also says, "The Sin Ananias and Sapphira committed was not stinginess or holding back part of the money, it was their choice on whether to sell the land and how much to give. Their sin was was lying to God and God's people.... This act was judged harshly b/c dishonesty, greed, and covetousness was destructuve in a church, preventing the Holy Spirit from working effectively. All lying is bad, but when we lie to try to deceive God and his people about our relationship with him, we destroy our testimony about Christ."

So, simply to say they lied to God is why they were killed is an over simplified version.

Well that is what Acts recorded as being the reason for their deaths. Why does the simplicity of the explanation in this case count against it being correct?

jarrettcpr said:
Thanks for the debate. I like the fact no harsh words are being used, and like the fact it's not over-heated and etc.

If you can view that link, and see what you think. It's pretty good. What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

Thank you as well, for the civility and Christianlike discussion.

Ephesians 4:15

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

God bless you, my brother.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 28, 2009

jarrettcpr said:
I agree with that, but the Sabbath is now our rest in Jesus. Not some day(s).

You can read some of the previous posts or go to this website who will make their case by using Scripture. What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lords Day, and Gods Rest Fulfillment views

The bible does not day that. Jesus did say that all ye that labour and are heavy laden come to me and I will give u rest. But that was in a spiritual context. The 7th day Sabbath has always been kept physically and spiritually. When we say that Jesus is not our Sabbath rest we imply that everyone in the Old testament times could not have spiritual rest in Jesus which is not true. Jesus did not die on the cross to replace the Sabbath. Hebrews 3 and 4 does not imply that Jesus is now our Sabbath.

If you look at the context you will notice that the rest spoken of mainly refers to the rest for the Children of Israel in the promised land, and it has implications to the future promised land promised in John 14:1 - 3, but it also applies to the Sabbath. The Israelites did not believe that they could conquer Caanan and therefore God caused them to roam the wilderness for 40 more years. What is facinating is that we see the Sabbath rest mentioned even when the rest in context relates to the Children of Israel and their promised land. Take verse 4 for instance.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Now look at verse 9 and 10.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

How did God cease from his work. What is being taught is that we rest in Jesus from our works of salvation. But verse 10 tells us that if we enter into his rest we cease from our works as God did from his. How did God cease from his work? He physically did not work, not because he was tired but for an example for us. When we enter into his rest we also cease from our physical work. The greek word used for rest in verse 9 literally means a Sabbath rest. It enforces the validity of the Sabbath.

jarrettcpr · Jul 28, 2009

NaLuvena said:
However, once we are saved, we are not free to do as we please. There is a way to live, laws to obey, and Jesus pointed this out.

Matthew 5:19

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Note that this whole "Sermon on the Mount" was only to the disciples, to people who had dedicated themselves to following Jesus. Jesus them told them that for a follower, if he breaks any of the commandments and teachs others to do likewise, will be called LEAST in the Kingdom of heaven.

Most importantly, he is not thrown out of the Kingdom. Just becomes a type of heavenly serf, if there be such a thing...

Yes, we should try and live a righteous life, and shouldn't throw morality out the window, once we are saved.

That's good you can't be thrown out. I was starting to sweat. I don't perfectly obey the laws of the land.

NaLuvena said:
Jesus has made the sacrifice that will take away all our sins. Past present and future.

However, have you confessed for all your sins? The future ones, cannot be confessed today, because we do not know what we will do then. When we sin, our conscience still convicts us, and we feel guilty, because we know that we have done wrong.

When that happens, we need to confess our sins, and repent, so that God can purify us.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

That is the spiritual equivalent of placing your hands on the head of the sacrificial animal. Note that in the OT, this, and the killing of the sacrifice were the only parts the sinner played in the sin sacrifice. The rest was done by the priest.

Well I can't remember all of my past sins, I guess I could go through the 10 commandments and ask God to please forgive me of all of the things I didn't do.

Do you believe if a sin goes unrepentant that person does not enter Heaven? If I get into a car crash(God forbid) and die, but right before the crash I lied, or stole or etc. am I not allowed to enter heaven? This brings in 'Eternal Security' and 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

NaLuvena said:
What you get when you get to heaven (this is your reward) is another matter. It depends on what you do with your life, once you're saved.

Matthew 19

27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?”
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

For the 12 disciples, the entry was a gift of God to them. The 12 thrones was their reward for leaving everything and following Jesus.

I haven't studied up on the 'rewards' of heaven. I guess some say the rewards are individualistic, while other say it's a culmination of the church history and by the work of Christ that saved us. In one of my Bible the notes for Rev 19:7-8 says, "the bride's clothing is the righteousness of the saints. These righteous acts are not religious deeds done by believers to their merit, but they reflect the work of Christ to save us" (Rev 7:9,14)

NaLuvena said:
I've read the material, and as I said, I disagree, because we have not entered the Rest yet.

From all the sites I've read, I can't see where one has or doesn't have to keep the 'Sabbath' as in a day(s) of rest and/or worship.

You keep citing Hebrews 4:1,9, but the sites also use those two scriptures and more for their reasoning, which is very convincing.

What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

Does God require Sabbath-keeping of Christians?

How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?

NaLuvena said:
So you still judge.

Like I was pointing out, we all do, so the only thing we can do, is to ensure that our judgement is righteous.

Yes, we all judge, it's about using righteous judgement, but never should we judge one's soul.

NaLuvena said:
If you try to fill that Law alone, it will lead you to the rest of the Law. That's because that Law is a summary of what we have to do. One example:

Luke 10

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" 37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Jesus defined a neighbour as one who has mercy on another. Therefore to keep that Law, we must have mercy on others.

Here are some Laws that define mercy even more specifically:

Exodus 23

1 "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness. 2 "Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, 3 and do not show favoritism to a poor man in his lawsuit.
4 "If you come across your enemy's ox or donkey wandering off, be sure to take it back to him. 5 If you see the donkey of someone who hates you fallen down under its load, do not leave it there; be sure you help him with it.
6 "Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. 7 Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
8 "Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds those who see and twists the words of the righteous.
9 "Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.

Absoultely, it's about loving others. The good Samaritan is another great example.

NaLuvena said:
But it can be completely done. We do not complete it, God does!!!

Colossians 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

And we have a part to play in it as well!!!

2 Timothy 2:15

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

Titus 2

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

God's grace teaches us to say "NO". Our part is saying "NO"!!! to ungodliness and worldly passions. God's power ensures that when we say "NO" the enemy complies.

James 4:7

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

In my previous response I said exactly that. "God will make us perfect". Meaning God will complete us in perfection.

NaLuvena said:
Well that is what Acts recorded as being the reason for their deaths. Why does the simplicity of the explanation in this case count against it being correct?

In essence yes they were killed simply b/c they lied to God, but in effect that's the same as saying a car goes forward b/c someone presses the gas pedal. There is more going on then just lying. Leaving out the rest of the context over simplifies it. To ignore the fact that this was the very beginning of the Christian movement, and to ignore the location, and everything else that was going on is an error on our behalf.

NaLuvena said:
Thank you as well, for the civility and Christianlike discussion.

Ephesians 4:15

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

God bless you, my brother.

Thank you as well, and I need all the blessings I can get.

jarrettcpr · Jul 28, 2009

PROPHECYKID said:
The bible does not day that. Jesus did say that all ye that labour and are heavy laden come to me and I will give u rest. But that was in a spiritual context.

Trust me, Jesus has given us much more than 'spiritual' rest. If it wasn't for him we'd be doing all types of offerings, sacrifices, rituals, and everything else. Are you to telling me those things are not physically demanding?

PROPHECYKID said:
The 7th day Sabbath has always been kept physically and spiritually. When we say that Jesus is not our Sabbath rest we imply that everyone in the Old testament times could not have spiritual rest in Jesus which is not true. Jesus did not die on the cross to replace the Sabbath. Hebrews 3 and 4 does not imply that Jesus is now our Sabbath.

The Hebrews couldn't have that rest b/c Jesus for them have not come to fulfill the law, yet. Thank God we're in the 'New Covenant'.

No, when Jesus died on the cross he became our Sabbath.

Actually, the author the this website ( What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views ) says, it's people who use Hebrews 3 and 4 to justify keeping the Sabbath day, when the author says that's not the case (both the author of the website and of Hebrews).

PROPHECYKID said:
If you look at the context you will notice that the rest spoken of mainly refers to the rest for the Children of Israel in the promised land, and it has implications to the future promised land promised in John 14:1 - 3, but it also applies to the Sabbath. The Israelites did not believe that they could conquer Caanan and therefore God caused them to roam the wilderness for 40 more years. What is facinating is that we see the Sabbath rest mentioned even when the rest in context relates to the Children of Israel and their promised land. Take verse 4 for instance.

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Now look at verse 9 and 10.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Verses 5–9 are the pivotal verses. Verse 5 again quotes Psalm 95:11; the Israelites did not enter God’s rest. Therefore, points out verse 6, since it remains that some must enter God’s rest, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter, then God designated another day [meaning time, not a 24 hour day] by saying through David (in Psalm 95:7–8), “To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.” In other words, since the children of Israel under Moses refused to enter God’s rest, typified by their refusal to enter the land of Canaan, God is calling others into His rest, as can be seen in the words of David many years after Moses. Of course, God decreed from eternity that all of this would occur. It did not catch Him by surprise. Nevertheless, from our perspective, we see this time sequence of the Israelites refusing to enter God’s rest and God, then, calling others into His rest.
Now it might be argued that the next generation of Israelites did, after forty years of wandering in the wilderness, eventually enter the land of Canaan under the leadership of Joshua. But Hebrews 4:8 explains that, by the physical entering into the land, they still did not enter God’s true rest:“For if Jesus [Joshua] had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.” Bible commentators and modern Bible versions agree that “Jesus” in the King James Version of this verse is really a reference to Joshua (the names are the same in Greek). So, God speaks of another time for people to enter His rest. “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God” (verse 9).
It should be pointed out that, with the exception of verse 9, the word “rest” in these verses has been translated from the Greek word katapausis. This word means a causing to cease. In Greek literature, it is used when someone stops and puts down his work. The word, as it is used in these verses that we have examined, is defined right in Hebrews 4, in verse 10: “For he that is entered into his rest [katapausis], he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.” So, the writer of Hebrews is using katapausis to mean to cease from one’s own works, as God did from His.

PROPHECYKID said:
How did God cease from his work. What is being taught is that we rest in Jesus from our works of salvation. But verse 10 tells us that if we enter into his rest we cease from our works as God did from his. How did God cease from his work? He physically did not work, not because he was tired but for an example for us. When we enter into his rest we also cease from our physical work. The greek word used for rest in verse 9 literally means a Sabbath rest. It enforces the validity of the Sabbath.

In Hebrews 4:9, we read, “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” Many writers have said that this means Christians are to continue keeping the Sabbath day (either seventh-day or Sunday, depending on the writer). But, in fact, the keeping of a day according to the Law of Moses is completely contrary to the message the writer of Hebrews was trying to convey.
The Greek word translated “rest” in verse 9 is sabbatismos. It is found nowhere else in the Bible. This word does not emphasize the day of the Sabbath, but the celebration rest associated with the Sabbath. In a comment concerning this word, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, on page 529, says, “Here the sabbath-keeping is the perpetual sabbath ‘rest’ to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath ‘rest’ is the ‘rest’ of God Himself, [Hebrews] 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it.” This is not the seventh-day Sabbath. It is the true rest that was only typified by the seventh-day Sabbath, which was only a shadow of the reality.
Of Hebrews 4:9–10, Unger’s New Bible Handbook (p. 588) states:

These verses refer to the rest called sabbath-keeping (sabbatismos, “a state of rest from labor&#8221, [Verse] 9. It involves the believer’s resting completely in a perfect work of redemption ([verses] 3–4) as God rested from a perfect work of creation, [verse] 10. This rest of redemption reposes wholly in the work of the cross, and ceases from all self-effort, human merit or legalistic claim as a means either of salvation or sanctification, [verse] 10 (cf. Eph 2:8-10). It projects the victory of faith in conquest over spiritual enemies (the world, the flesh and the devil).

There is another problem with trying to make Hebrews 4:9 mean that there remains a Sabbath day to be kept. Whatever remains in Hebrews 4:9 for us to enter is what Joshua, in Hebrews 4:8, failed to lead the people into. If what remains to be entered is the keeping of a Sabbath day, then the rest that Joshua failed to lead the people into was the Sabbath day. This, of course, is nonsense. Joshua failed to lead the people into God’s true rest because the people did not have faith. The Sabbath day can have nothing to do with this. Joshua’s not leading the children of Israel into God’s true rest cannot be a reason why we should therefore keep the Sabbath day. Forcing Hebrews 4:9 to be a reference to the Sabbath day makes a hash of the Scriptures.
It is an interesting fact that Hebrews 4:9 is the first place in all literature in which the word sabbatismos is found. It is quite possible that the writer of Hebrews invented the word. Why? Why did he use, possibly even create, sabbatismos instead of using katapausis? Apparently, the writer wanted to not only express that we can through faith enter God’s rest, or cease from works, but he wanted to also say that when we enter that rest, it is the true celebration and delight that the Sabbath rest foreshadowed (notice in Isaiah 58:13 that God wanted the Jews to delight in the Sabbath).
Continuing in Hebrews 4:10–11, we read: “For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
If the writer of Hebrews wanted Christians to keep a Sabbath day, he could have clearly said so. But as we have seen, this was not his intention. His intention was to explain that we enter God’s rest (of which the seventh-day Sabbath and the land of Canaan were only types) through faith, and we can fail to enter through lack of faith. To continue to rely upon the law by keeping a Sabbath day and to fear retribution if one were to fail to do so are symptomatic of a lack of faith.
The writer of Hebrews was concerned that the Jewish Christians to whom he was writing were wavering in their faith and again taking up their works from which they should have ceased. These verses explain that those who have entered God’s rest (those who are in Jesus Christ) must cease from their own works just as God did from His at the end of the Creation week.
So, what is the answer to the question posed in the title of this article? What is the Christian Sabbath? Remember that the Bible says that the Sabbaths were only shadows, but Jesus Christ is the body or substance (Colossians 2:16–17). Jesus Christ, then, is the real Christian Sabbath. Because He was sinless and His righteousness is imputed to us (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15), and because He died for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Thessalonians 5:9–10), we have our rest in Him. He is God’s rest that we enter by faith.
The God’s Rest view of the Sabbath is the only view that is consistent with the Scriptures. Therefore, it is sad that many churches, beginning about the seventeenth century, started misapplying Scripture to teach that certain days must be kept.
It is my prayer that God’s people will shed their yokes of bondage, turn from the weak and beggarly elements, and rediscover their true rest in Jesus Christ.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:1

Source: What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

NaLuvena · Jul 28, 2009

jarrettcpr said:
Yes, we should try and live a righteous life, and shouldn't throw morality out the window, once we are saved.

That's good you can't be thrown out. I was starting to sweat. I don't perfectly obey the laws of the land.

No worries, Jesus said our salvation is secure. It's our "POSITION" in Heaven that I'm referring to now.

jarrettcpr said:
Well I can't remember all of my past sins, I guess I could go through the 10 commandments and ask God to please forgive me of all of the things I didn't do.

Do you believe if a sin goes unrepentant that person does not enter Heaven? If I get into a car crash(God forbid) and die, but right before the crash I lied, or stole or etc. am I not allowed to enter heaven? This brings in 'Eternal Security' and 'Once Saved Always Saved'.

You'd still be allowed into Heaven, your entry is secure in that respect. It's what you will receive that is what will change.

Once saved, we are saved for eternity, but to what we come home to, that's another matter.

Remember the prodigal son? He had a feast, the ring, the shoes and the party, but the elder brother who stayed with their father OWNED EVERYTHING!!!!

jarrettcpr said:
I haven't studied up on the 'rewards' of heaven. I guess some say the rewards are individualistic, while other say it's a culmination of the church history and by the work of Christ that saved us. In one of my Bible the notes for Rev 19:7-8 says, "the bride's clothing is the righteousness of the saints. These righteous acts are not religious deeds done by believers to their merit, but they reflect the work of Christ to save us" (Rev 7:9,14)

There are individualistic rewards in Heaven. The disciples even fought over them (who would sit on the left and right hand of the Son in heaven.) Even Jesus said that He couldn't give that priviledge to them. The Bible is silent on this, but I assume that this honour would be assigned by God the Father alone.

jarrettcpr said:
From all the sites I've read, I can't see where one has or doesn't have to keep the 'Sabbath' as in a day(s) of rest and/or worship.

You keep citing Hebrews 4:1,9, but the sites also use those two scriptures and more for their reasoning, which is very convincing.

What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lords Day, and Gods Rest Fulfillment views

Does God require Sabbath-keeping of Christians?

How is Jesus our Sabbath Rest?

Firstly, IMO, you would be better off reading the Bible and depending on the Spirit yourself, rather than depending on the opinions of others.

Now, if you remember the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), it says that a man, who was going to leave on a long journey, entrusted his servants with some money.

The man on the long journey, is Jesus. We are the servants entrusted with the valuables. We are supposed to work and increase what we have been entrusted with, until our Master returns. It's when the Master returns, that the servant will rest (or not, depending on his work now).

That is my point, that the rest you are referring to is just a thing we hope for now, we have not entered into it. Jesus will take us into it, when He returns for the bride.

jarrettcpr said:
Yes, we all judge, it's about using righteous judgement, but never should we judge one's soul.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. We should judge ones actions.

jarrettcpr said:
Absoultely, it's about loving others. The good Samaritan is another great example.

jarrettcpr said:
In my previous response I said exactly that. "God will make us perfect". Meaning God will complete us in perfection.

God completes, and God begins. We have a part to play in the middle. That's why Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and not the Author, Worker and Finisher.

jarrettcpr said:
In essence yes they were killed simply b/c they lied to God, but in effect that's the same as saying a car goes forward b/c someone presses the gas pedal. There is more going on then just lying. Leaving out the rest of the context over simplifies it. To ignore the fact that this was the very beginning of the Christian movement, and to ignore the location, and everything else that was going on is an error on our behalf.

Interesting!!!

So, you're saying that God's judgements are time-sensitive, that now the same sin wouldn't be punished so drastically?

jarrettcpr said:
Thank you as well, and I need all the blessings I can get.

No problem. God bless you again.

Inquisition · Jul 28, 2009

NaLuvena said:
I am aware that Judaism that is practiced nowdays is different from what was practiced in the time of Jesus and also differs from what God gave Moses.

However, they still observe the Sabbath Day they were told to observe. The way the observe differs, but the day (which is what you originally asked about) is the same.

I also pointed out that there are sabbaths in addition to the weekly sabbath.

That Day was shown in no uncertain terms in Exodus 16, when God did not send the manna.

It does. Why else would God specifically point out a particular day in his command regarding Sabbath keeping, and confirm it by a physical act?

I also have a question. Do you believe that God whats us to understand His will, and to know what He wants us to do?

What about Christ? How did he observe the sabbath?

jarrettcpr · Jul 28, 2009

NaLuvena said:
No worries, Jesus said our salvation is secure. It's our "POSITION" in Heaven that I'm referring to now.

Alright, I'm starting to cool off a little. The sweat is starting to subside.

NaLuvena said:
You'd still be allowed into Heaven, your entry is secure in that respect. It's what you will receive that is what will change.

Once saved, we are saved for eternity, but to what we come home to, that's another matter.

I can't remember, but I think it's in the Book of Revelation, that says something along the lines, the bad will be burnt, and only the pure will be left, and etc. Then there is scripture that I can't remember that says some will barely make it through after the fire. Something like that. We can make another thread regarding 'rewards'.

NaLuvena said:
Remember the prodigal son? He had a feast, the ring, the shoes and the party, but the elder brother who stayed with their father OWNED EVERYTHING!!!!

I want the feast, and everything else.

NaLuvena said:
There are individualistic rewards in Heaven. The disciples even fought over them (who would sit on the left and right hand of the Son in heaven.) Even Jesus said that He couldn't give that priviledge to them. The Bible is silent on this, but I assume that this honour would be assigned by God the Father alone.

I still don't fully get the rewards when based on individual merit. The thing about that is if you die young, then your rewards would be rather small than if you lived longer. Since, is it much more likely an older person has done many more deeds than the teenager.

NaLuvena said:
Firstly, IMO, you would be better off reading the Bible and depending on the Spirit yourself, rather than depending on the opinions of others.

I'm against legalism. If you're told you have to do this and if you don't then it's a sin, then I'm completely against it. This would be especially true in the sense of setting aside a day of rest. Personally every day is a rest for me. If anything people would want to encourage the keeping of the Sabbath, b/c it tells people we're allowed to be lazy. Though, I'm sure they would have a better spin on it.

NaLuvena said:
Now, if you remember the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30), it says that a man, who was going to leave on a long journey, entrusted his servants with some money.

The man on the long journey, is Jesus. We are the servants entrusted with the valuables. We are supposed to work and increase what we have been entrusted with, until our Master returns. It's when the Master returns, that the servant will rest (or not, depending on his work now).

That is my point, that the rest you are referring to is just a thing we hope for now, we have not entered into it. Jesus will take us into it, when He returns for the bride.

So, all along the rest you refer to is the New Earth aka Heaven/Paradise? When I view the word rest, I see it as a way of salvation. We are not saved by the law, and those who think they are as Paul says is cursed. We're saved by faith. So, there is no need to work(abiding by the law) to earn our salvation. That doesn't mean we rest(do nothing) until we die. It doesn't mean we shouldn't preach the gospel to others, or we now don't have to raise our children correctly, and etc. Our rest is in Jesus b/c he accomplished and fulfilled the law which was imputed to us. In essence, we believers have perfectly obeyed the law(B/c of the last sentence given). There's no need to set aside a day for rest. Our rest is completed.

NaLuvena said:
Interesting!!!

So, you're saying that God's judgements are time-sensitive, that now the same sin wouldn't be punished so drastically?

I think for that given circumstance that it's not far fetched to think that. People lie to God and the church all the time, but we don't see people dying the very instant they do it. I don't really know (if God's judgments are time sensitive), though it's best not to lie to God and others.

NaLuvena said:
No problem. God bless you again.

LOL

PROPHECYKID · Jul 28, 2009

Trust me, Jesus has given us much more than 'spiritual' rest. If it wasn't for him we'd be doing all types of offerings, sacrifices, rituals, and everything else. Are you to telling me those things are not physically demanding?

Yes they are.

The Hebrews couldn't have that rest b/c Jesus for them have not come to fulfill the law, yet. Thank God we're in the 'New Covenant'.

Totally against scripture. Everything for you guys seem to be about not having to obey the law. The bible clearly states that they were not able to enter into the rest because of unbelief. If you look at the story in the book of Deuteronomy you will see exactly why they didn't enter and why they had to spend 40 years in the wilderness.

No, when Jesus died on the cross he became our Sabbath.

Then it is very strange that he told his disciples to pray not that their flight be on the Sabbath speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. If he intended to replace the Sabbath then why tell his disciples that.

To the excerpt that you posted. I already shown the two fold application of the rest. Just as the Israelites had a promised land to enter into (entering into rest), so we also have a land or a home that is promised to us. That home was promised in John 14: 1 - 3. Jesus does not replace the Sabbath rest because of we are to enter his rest as God did then we should cease from our works. God rested the 7th day and we are instructed to follow his example. The 7th day Sabbath is not a shadow of the promised rest because:

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

We shall keep the Sabbath in that resting place.

And because:

God made the Sabbath at creation when there was a perfect world and no sin. Adam and Eve had the perfect resting place at that time. They did not need a future rest at that time until sin came. But the Sabbath was there when all was perfect. It therefore does not conflict with the future rest but abides in it like it was in the beginning.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 28, 2009

I also pointed out that there are sabbaths in addition to the weekly sabbath.

And those sabbaths are apart of the shadows that pointed to Christ. They came in as a result of the special ordinances that were done. And those ordinances were a shadow of Christ. Look at it this way. The only reason those ordinances and those additional Sabbaths came about were because of sin. They were apart of the system to deal with sin until Jesus death on the cross. The 7th day Sabbath came as a result of creation. There was no sin when the Sabbath was made. All was perfect. Lets just say that Adam never sinned. The Sabbath would still be here. Christ came to deal with the sin problem. The Sabbath did not come as a result of sin.

What about Christ? How did he observe the sabbath?[/quote]

He observed it the way that it was supposed to be observed.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Many people say that Jesus broke the Sabbath but that is plain wrong. Jesus said that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath day. Lawful means not against the law. Why would Jesus come to earth and brake the same law that he created.

jarrettcpr · Jul 29, 2009

PROPHECYKID said:
Yes they are.

Okay we agree on that. That's a good starting point.

PROPHECYKID said:
Totally against scripture. Everything for you guys seem to be about not having to obey the law. The bible clearly states that they were not able to enter into the rest because of unbelief. If you look at the story in the book of Deuteronomy you will see exactly why they didn't enter and why they had to spend 40 years in the wilderness.

For the above we have an error. I did say they did not enter the rest b/c of unbelief. I even supplied it in my last post to you.

Here the below was in my post to you...

There is another problem with trying to make Hebrews 4:9 mean that there remains a Sabbath day to be kept. Whatever remains in Hebrews 4:9 for us to enter is what Joshua, in Hebrews 4:8, failed to lead the people into. If what remains to be entered is the keeping of a Sabbath day, then the rest that Joshua failed to lead the people into was the Sabbath day. This, of course, is nonsense. Joshua failed to lead the people into Gods true rest because the people did not have faith. The Sabbath day can have nothing to do with this. Joshuas not leading the children of Israel into Gods true rest cannot be a reason why we should therefore keep the Sabbath day. Forcing Hebrews 4:9 to be a reference to the Sabbath day makes a hash of the Scriptures.

PROPHECYKID said:
Then it is very strange that he told his disciples to pray not that their flight be on the Sabbath speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. If he intended to replace the Sabbath then why tell his disciples that.

B/c Jesus hadn't died, yet. Also, he had to completely and perfectly obey every letter of the law, so that it could be fulfilled.

PROPHECYKID said:
To the excerpt that you posted. I already shown the two fold application of the rest. Just as the Israelites had a promised land to enter into (entering into rest), so we also have a land or a home that is promised to us. That home was promised in John 14: 1 - 3. Jesus does not replace the Sabbath rest because of we are to enter his rest as God did then we should cease from our works. God rested the 7th day and we are instructed to follow his example. The 7th day Sabbath is not a shadow of the promised rest because:

The rest they entered being Canaan was only a shadow of the reality or anti-type.

The Sabbath command in the Old Testament was an enforced rest. But is was a rest that was, as Paul explained concerning the observing of all Sabbaths, only a shadow or type of the reality to come (Colossians 2:1617). Jesus was the reality or anti-type (verse 17). Jesus Christ was as much the fulfillment of the Sabbath as he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices by becoming the perfect sacrifice, or of the other laws by keeping them perfectly.

PROPHECYKID said:
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

The above only puts more validity for my argument and not yours.

Remember those things are done away with, they were only a shadow, and now Christ did away with them. Colossians 2:1617. We no longer live in the things to come (shadow), but now live in Christ (the real thing).

Wesley's Notes Isaiah 66:23 And, and c. - In the gospel - church there shall be as constant and settled a course of worship (though of another nature) as ever was in the Jewish church: Christians are not bound to keep the Jewish sabbaths or new - moons. But New Testament worship is expressed by Old Testament phrases. The Jews were only obliged to appear three times in a year at Jerusalem, but (saith the prophet) the gospel - church shall worship God from one sabbath to another.

PROPHECYKID said:
We shall keep the Sabbath in that resting place.

We keep the Sabbath by faith, and that place is Jesus. He is why we can rest.

PROPHECYKID said:
And because:

God made the Sabbath at creation when there was a perfect world and no sin. Adam and Eve had the perfect resting place at that time. They did not need a future rest at that time until sin came. But the Sabbath was there when all was perfect. It therefore does not conflict with the future rest but abides in it like it was in the beginning.

Both sabbatarians (seventh-day Sabbath keepers) and semisabbatarians (Sunday-Sabbath keepers) will almost invariably try to prove the perpetuity of the Sabbath by saying that it began at the foundation of the world as a creation ordinance given to all humankind. To support this claim, they cite Genesis 2:23: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. But we should notice that these verses do not contain a command to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God told Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God even informed Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) that God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it. Context is important in understanding the Bible, so it is important to understand that Moses wrote Genesis 2 in the context of the Exodus, centuries after the Creation, just after he led Israel out of Egypt. He wrote this account in the context of the law being given at Sinai.

The connection of Genesis 2:23 to Exodus 20:11 cannot be overlooked, but neither should it be misunderstood. From the Creation to Exodus 16, the Sabbath is never commanded nor even mentioned. We must conclude that the reason is that it had not yet been instituted. The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write Genesis 2:23 to show why the seventh day was the day God later commanded the Israelites to rest on. This information about God resting on the seventh day is repeated in Exodus 20:11. By observing the Sabbath, they were keeping a type of the rest God had observed at the Creation as described in Genesis 2.

Another common argument of Sabbath keepers is that the Fourth Commandment says, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8). If the Sabbath was something new, what was God telling them to remember? Only two possible answers fit the biblical evidence. 1) God was telling them to remember from that day onward. If I am giving a man directions, I might say, When you get to Main Street, remember to turn right. This in no way implies that this is information he should have known before. It merely means that he should remember this information at the time he needs it. God may have started the Sabbath command with remember because he knew the Israelites would have a tendency to forget it. The reason God ordered the Israelites to make fringes for their garments (Numbers 15:3839) shows us the Israelites had trouble remembering the commands God gave them at Sinai. 2) Another possible explanation for God using the word remember may be that He was telling them to remember the events of Exodus 16. This chapter is an account of how God introduced the Sabbath to the Israelites through a physical example, much as one might teach a child. He told them that He would give them manna for six days, that they would have enough for each day, and that they were not to keep any overnight or it would spoil. The one exception would be on the sixth day, when they would gather enough for two days. They were to prepare this two-days worth on the sixth day, and they would be able to keep some overnight for the seventh day. They would not gather manna on the seventh day because it was the Sabbath. Exodus 16:23 is the first place in the Bible that the word Sabbath is found: And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. In Exodus 20:8, God may have been telling the Israelites to remember the lesson they learned in Exodus 16. Considering the lack of any evidence of the institution of the Sabbath before Exodus 16, there is no reason to assume that God wanted the Israelites to remember the Sabbath from some earlier period.
In Nehemiah 9:14 we read that God madest known unto them [the Israelites] thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant. This Scripture is important because it does not say that the Israelites knew of the Sabbath already and that God used Moses to remind them of it. It says that God, by the hand of Moses, made the Sabbath known to the Israelites. The Sabbath was first introduced to the Israelites at the time of Moses, over two thousand years after the Creation.

Ezekiel says something similar: Wherefore I caused them [Israel] to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Ezekiel 20:1012). Here again we find that God gave the children of Israel the Sabbath after He brought them out of Egypt. He says nothing about their knowing this before that time and His having to remind them.

An interesting point in this regard is found in Numbers 15:3236: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. The Sabbath command was so new that the people did not know how to punish someone who broke it.

There is another biblical proof that the Sabbath could not have been a creation ordinance given to all humanity. In Exodus 31:1217, we read, And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. God says the Sabbath is a sign between Him and the children of Israel. Ezekiel 20:12 and 20 also say that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them. If the Sabbath had been given to all humanity at Creation, it would not be unique to Israel and, therefore, it could not act as a special sign between God and Israel.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 29, 2009

For the above we have an error. I did say they did not enter the rest b/c of unbelief. I even supplied it in my last post to you.

Good. Well that is the reason.

There is another problem with trying to make Hebrews 4:9 mean that there remains a Sabbath day to be kept. Whatever remains in Hebrews 4:9 for us to enter is what Joshua, in Hebrews 4:8, failed to lead the people into. If what remains to be entered is the keeping of a Sabbath day, then the rest that Joshua failed to lead the people into was the Sabbath day. This, of course, is nonsense. Joshua failed to lead the people into Gods true rest because the people did not have faith. The Sabbath day can have nothing to do with this. Joshuas not leading the children of Israel into Gods true rest cannot be a reason why we should therefore keep the Sabbath day. Forcing Hebrews 4:9 to be a reference to the Sabbath day makes a hash of the Scriptures.

I don't agree that it has nothing to do with it. But the main context of rest in the passage does not relate to the Sabbath. It speaks of the future rest that still remains. Because of the inclusions of references to the Sabbath it begs to question if the rest spoken of is actually two fold which I believe. But we can agree for now that it speaks of the future rest.

B/c Jesus hadn't died, yet. Also, he had to completely and perfectly obey every letter of the law, so that it could be fulfilled.

The fact that Jesus said that means that he expected his disciples to be keeping the Sabbath after he died. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. We need to talk also about what it means to fulfill the law. Paul says this;

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Does that mean that when we fulfill the law it no longer applies to us? Because the implication is that since Jesus fulfill the law it no longer binds. Simply put, he abolished (destroyed) the law. He did the opposite of destroying the law. He built up the law, he completed the law, not so that we don't have to keep it but so that we have a better knowledge of how we should keep it. Jesus taught allot of about how one keeps and breaks the law in the heart. Lust = adultery for instance.

The rest they entered being Canaan was only a shadow of the reality or anti-type.

That is debatable. Didn't God tell them that they were supposed to inhabit that land forever, on condition that they were obedient and followed him all the way? I am not sure if I remember well but I think that was the case.

The Sabbath command in the Old Testament was an enforced rest. But is was a rest that was, as Paul explained concerning the observing of all Sabbaths, only a shadow or type of the reality to come (Colossians 2:1617). Jesus was the reality or anti-type (verse 17). Jesus Christ was as much the fulfillment of the Sabbath as he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices by becoming the perfect sacrifice, or of the other laws by keeping them perfectly.

The Sabbath was made in a perfect world when sin was not there. The Sabbath has nothing to do with the sin problem. If God created the Sabbath in a perfect world without sin then why should the Sabbath be a shadow. The sabbaths Paul speaks about in Colossians 2: 16 is not the 7th day Sabbath but all the additional monthly sabbaths of the sacrificial system. Those sabbaths were apart of the handwriting of ordinances that were blotted out. These handwriting of ordinances were written by moses in the book of the law which was against us. The 7th day Sabbath is apart of the 10 commandments which were seperate from the book of the law and not against us. Everything in verse 16 then partains to the handwriting of ordinances. The 10 commandments are not ordinances.

The above only puts more validity for my argument and not yours.

Remember those things are done away with, they were only a shadow, and now Christ did away with them. Colossians 2:1617. We no longer live in the things to come (shadow), but now live in Christ (the real thing).

And Christ did not blot out his 10 commandments but the handwriting of ordinances. Jesus did not die so we no longer have to honor his holy day. That does not add up. He died so that his blood could pay the price for our sins and atone for us. No more earthly priest, no more sacrifices and ordinances needed. These things came as a result of sin. The Sabbath came as a result of creation.

We keep the Sabbath by faith, and that place is Jesus. He is why we can rest.

I believe that if you realize that the 7th Sabbath is not a shadow of Christ then you will understand why it is still to be kept today.

jarrettcpr · Jul 29, 2009

I have a knack at making long posts, so this is in two parts...

1st Part

PROPHECYKID said:
Good. Well that is the reason.

Alright, another good starting point

PROPHECYKID said:
I don't agree that it has nothing to do with it. But the main context of rest in the passage does not relate to the Sabbath. It speaks of the future rest that still remains. Because of the inclusions of references to the Sabbath it begs to question if the rest spoken of is actually two fold which I believe. But we can agree for now that it speaks of the future rest.

I don't know how to piece everything together without having an extremely long post. Whenever I use an except from an article I either leave out something that you counter-attack and then we just end up going in circles.

I don't know if you read this article in it's entirety, but here it is...

What Is the Christian Sabbath? A comparison of the Seventh-day Sabbath, Sunday Sabbath, Lord’s Day, and God’s Rest Fulfillment views

PROPHECYKID said:
The fact that Jesus said that means that he expected his disciples to be keeping the Sabbath after he died. Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD.

What did Jesus Mean:

"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath" (Matthew 24:20)?

If Sabbath observance was not a concern for Christians when Matthew wrote his Gospel, why did he mention Jesus’ words about fleeing on the Sabbath? Some people claim this is a command from Jesus for Christians to keep the Sabbath rest. Is this true?
We begin our explanation by noting an important point about Jesus’ statement. If we carefully read his words in Matthew 24:20, we find no command from his lips for Christians to observe a Sabbath rest. He simply advises Christians that for circumstantial reasons, they should pray that the need to flee will not arise on the Sabbath or in winter. Why it would not be prudent to flee in winter is obvious. Adverse weather conditions would hamper flight and put those fleeing at risk from the elements. But why would fleeing on the Sabbath day be a problem?
Here is where we have to be aware of Jewish customs and practices regarding the Sabbath. Jesus gave his warning to the disciples because of the possibility that Jewish people in Jerusalem and Judea would have prevented Christians from fleeing on the Sabbath. Please note that the warning was given "to those who are in Judea" (verse 16), not to disciples in other parts of the world. It is preserved only in Matthew’s Gospel, which was probably written to Jewish Christians.
Thus, the passage tells us more about the religious practices and social regulations regarding the Sabbath of non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem and Judea, than what the church would be doing about it. The context in which the warning about fleeing is given leads us to conclude that it has nothing to do with any supposed command for Christians to keep the Sabbath rest. Jesus gave his warning not because the church would be keeping the Sabbath but because Christians in Judea and Jerusalem might find it difficult or impossible to flee on this day,
Since the Jews honored Moses’ laws, they believed it was wrong to take long journeys on the Sabbath. They apparently even had a measurement for the distance to be traveled on this day, which was called a "Sabbath day’s walk" or journey (Acts 1:12). This was a short distance. In Luke’s example it was the distance between the Mount of Olives, on the perimeter of Jerusalem, and the city itself. But Jesus’ warning was given in the context of a catastrophe on the city and Judea, which would have required getting much further out of the area than a limited "Sabbath day’s walk" might allow.
Further, the gates of Jerusalem were locked on the Sabbath day, which would have prevented people from fleeing the city. The Jews also had authority to police their own people regarding certain religious matters. The zealots especially, no doubt, would have tried to prevent fellow Jews from taking long journeys on the Sabbath. And they would have tried to prevent anyone from fleeing Jerusalem and Judea while the war with the Romans was in progress (A.D. 66-70). Such fleeing would have been considered a traitorous action by the Jews battling the Romans.
But Jesus said that people who were in all of Judea at the time of the crisis at Jerusalem would need to immediately flee far away into the hills. Jesus gave the warning in Matthew 24:20 because he knew that the Jews would not allow the kind of escape in troubling times on the Sabbath that his warning required. His warning was not a command to rest on the Sabbath any more than it was a command to rest in winter. These were simply inconvenient times to flee.
Warning for the future?
Those who interpret Matthew 24 as applying only to a future time claim the warning in verse 20 has nothing to do with the practices of Jews in the first century. Thus, Jewish customs with regard to the Sabbath would not have any relevance for explaining this verse. They note that Jewish authorities today – an example for the future, they believe – would not prevent people from fleeing the city or the area of ancient Judea. Matthew 24, they claim, is a warning for the future "time of the end" of the world. In this context, they teach that verse 20 is, indeed, a command for the Sabbath to be kept.
Does this theory have any validity? In fact, this idea of a future context to the warning in verse 20 is fraught with difficulties. Let’s briefly look at some of the problems.
First, we have no idea what Jewish authorities might or might not allow during an unknown future time when it is claimed that all of the Holy Land will be in the throes of military, social and natural destruction and upheaval. Today’s modern military power is overwhelming in its ability to pinpoint, corner and destroy. When Israel invaded Palestinian territory in April 2002 to prevent suicide bombers from killing Israelis, there was no escape for groups of people from any town, and certainly not from the area. The fact is, we have no way of knowing what might or might not be possible in terms of fleeing an area to safety – and any escape seems doubtful at best.
Second, leaving this hypothetical argument aside, we need to once again repeat that there is no command in Matthew 24:20 for Christians to keep the Sabbath. Jesus doesn’t say, "Keep the Sabbath holy." He says that those who are in Judea should hope they don’t need to flee in winter or on the Sabbath day. That is not a command to keep a rest day; it is advice about adverse conditions for fleeing.
Third, if the warnings given throughout Matthew 24, including those about fleeing on the Sabbath, were meant only for some future "end times," then they would have had no meaning for the Christians to whom they were originally spoken, and then written. The hearers would have been confused by the meaning of such assertions. The existence of these warnings – in a future scenario – would require an explanation to the effect that Jesus was talking only to people living in some distant "end time." But no such explanation is evident in Matthew 24:20. The disciples who first heard these warnings are addressed throughout the chapter. In fact, Jesus says the following after giving such warnings as the one about fleeing on the Sabbath: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (verse 34).
Fourth, the idea that Matthew 24 refers to specific events in some future "end time" is speculation. Christians have been trying to understand how to interpret this chapter without great success or agreement for 1900 years. For example, some Christians believe that all the events mentioned in Matthew 24 were fulfilled before A.D. 70 and have no application for the subsequent history of the church, or for the future. The interpretation that these events are yet future is by no means proven.
Conclusion
The point is that we cannot use one speculative assertion (that Matthew 24 refers to a future time) as the basis for a dogmatic assertion about another unproved claim (that the Sabbath should be kept). Even here, before we lose our mooring, let us repeat a third time that verse 20 contains no command to keep the Sabbath. In fact, one can read the New Testament from Matthew through Revelation and he or she will not find a single instance in which the church is commanded to keep the Sabbath as "holy time."
Given all the above considerations, we can only conclude that Matthew 24:20 as written was a warning to Christians living at the time the book was written, and not specifically to Christians living in a supposed future time of "the end" of the world. The warning was given to Christians of that day living in Judea and Jerusalem because they would find it difficult or impossible to flee on a Sabbath day if circumstances demanded it. There is no command in this verse to keep the Sabbath as "holy time."

jarrettcpr · Jul 29, 2009

2nd Part

PROPHECYKID said:
We need to talk also about what it means to fulfill the law. Paul says this; Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Does that mean that when we fulfill the law it no longer applies to us? Because the implication is that since Jesus fulfill the law it no longer binds. Simply put, he abolished (destroyed) the law. He did the opposite of destroying the law. He built up the law, he completed the law, not so that we don't have to keep it but so that we have a better knowledge of how we should keep it. Jesus taught allot of about how one keeps and breaks the law in the heart. Lust = adultery for instance.

You're misconstruing that scripture. Christians must obey the law of love, which supersedes both religious and civil laws. You'll see below is the fulfillment of the law.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

PROPHECYKID said:
That is debatable. Didn't God tell them that they were supposed to inhabit that land forever, on condition that they were obedient and followed him all the way? I am not sure if I remember well but I think that was the case.

Even when the Israelites entered Canaan which was considered a type of rest, the reason we see why even in Hebrews why we today should not fail to enter as some of the Israelites did when Joshua help brought them in, is because they still lacked faith. The meaning of all of this is that we should not lack faith.

PROPHECYKID said:
The Sabbath was made in a perfect world when sin was not there. The Sabbath has nothing to do with the sin problem. If God created the Sabbath in a perfect world without sin then why should the Sabbath be a shadow. The sabbaths Paul speaks about in Colossians 2: 16 is not the 7th day Sabbath but all the additional monthly sabbaths of the sacrificial system. Those sabbaths were apart of the handwriting of ordinances that were blotted out. These handwriting of ordinances were written by moses in the book of the law which was against us. The 7th day Sabbath is apart of the 10 commandments which were seperate from the book of the law and not against us. Everything in verse 16 then partains to the handwriting of ordinances. The 10 commandments are not ordinances.

I thought my last post to you, clearly made your above accusation false...

Both sabbatarians (seventh-day Sabbath keepers) and semisabbatarians (Sunday-Sabbath keepers) will almost invariably try to prove the perpetuity of the Sabbath by saying that it began at the foundation of the world as a creation ordinance given to all humankind. To support this claim, they cite Genesis 2:23: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. But we should notice that these verses do not contain a command to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God told Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God even informed Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) that God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it. Context is important in understanding the Bible, so it is important to understand that Moses wrote Genesis 2 in the context of the Exodus, centuries after the Creation, just after he led Israel out of Egypt. He wrote this account in the context of the law being given at Sinai.

The connection of Genesis 2:23 to Exodus 20:11 cannot be overlooked, but neither should it be misunderstood. From the Creation to Exodus 16, the Sabbath is never commanded nor even mentioned. We must conclude that the reason is that it had not yet been instituted. The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write Genesis 2:23 to show why the seventh day was the day God later commanded the Israelites to rest on. This information about God resting on the seventh day is repeated in Exodus 20:11. By observing the Sabbath, they were keeping a type of the rest God had observed at the Creation as described in Genesis 2.

Another common argument of Sabbath keepers is that the Fourth Commandment says, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8). If the Sabbath was something new, what was God telling them to remember? Only two possible answers fit the biblical evidence. 1) God was telling them to remember from that day onward. If I am giving a man directions, I might say, When you get to Main Street, remember to turn right. This in no way implies that this is information he should have known before. It merely means that he should remember this information at the time he needs it. God may have started the Sabbath command with remember because he knew the Israelites would have a tendency to forget it. The reason God ordered the Israelites to make fringes for their garments (Numbers 15:3839) shows us the Israelites had trouble remembering the commands God gave them at Sinai. 2) Another possible explanation for God using the word remember may be that He was telling them to remember the events of Exodus 16. This chapter is an account of how God introduced the Sabbath to the Israelites through a physical example, much as one might teach a child. He told them that He would give them manna for six days, that they would have enough for each day, and that they were not to keep any overnight or it would spoil. The one exception would be on the sixth day, when they would gather enough for two days. They were to prepare this two-days worth on the sixth day, and they would be able to keep some overnight for the seventh day. They would not gather manna on the seventh day because it was the Sabbath. Exodus 16:23 is the first place in the Bible that the word Sabbath is found: And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. In Exodus 20:8, God may have been telling the Israelites to remember the lesson they learned in Exodus 16. Considering the lack of any evidence of the institution of the Sabbath before Exodus 16, there is no reason to assume that God wanted the Israelites to remember the Sabbath from some earlier period.
In Nehemiah 9:14 we read that God madest known unto them [the Israelites] thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant. This Scripture is important because it does not say that the Israelites knew of the Sabbath already and that God used Moses to remind them of it. It says that God, by the hand of Moses, made the Sabbath known to the Israelites. The Sabbath was first introduced to the Israelites at the time of Moses, over two thousand years after the Creation.

Ezekiel says something similar: Wherefore I caused them [Israel] to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Ezekiel 20:1012). Here again we find that God gave the children of Israel the Sabbath after He brought them out of Egypt. He says nothing about their knowing this before that time and His having to remind them.

An interesting point in this regard is found in Numbers 15:3236: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. The Sabbath command was so new that the people did not know how to punish someone who broke it.

There is another biblical proof that the Sabbath could not have been a creation ordinance given to all humanity. In Exodus 31:1217, we read, And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. God says the Sabbath is a sign between Him and the children of Israel. Ezekiel 20:12 and 20 also say that God gave Israel the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them. If the Sabbath had been given to all humanity at Creation, it would not be unique to Israel and, therefore, it could not act as a special sign between God and Israel.

Also more on this...

CREATION & THE SABBATH: The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."

Nehemiah 9:13-14 says, "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."

PROPHECYKID said:
And Christ did not blot out his 10 commandments but the handwriting of ordinances. Jesus did not die so we no longer have to honor his holy day. That does not add up. He died so that his blood could pay the price for our sins and atone for us. No more earthly priest, no more sacrifices and ordinances needed. These things came as a result of sin. The Sabbath came as a result of creation.

He didn't blot out the 10 commandments...

He does however give us these two:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40)

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament. Also, all through the NT many sins are listed, but not the breaking of the Sabbath. In Mark 7:21-22 ,Romans 1:29-32, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Timothy 3:1-4 displays a bunch of sin, yet breaking the Sabbath is not one of them.

Even more in all the epistles written to the churches, and with some being Gentiles/New Christians, not once is how to practice the Sabbath mentioned. A Gentile would not know how to practice a Sabbath since they are not Hebrews. So, if the Sabbath was so important, one would have to think in the epistles it would have been brought up.

PROPHECYKID said:
I believe that if you realize that the 7th Sabbath is not a shadow of Christ then you will understand why it is still to be kept today.

I keep the Sabbath, by having faith in Jesus.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 29, 2009

I don't know how to piece everything together without having an extremely long post. Whenever I use an except from an article I either leave out something that you counter-attack and then we just end up going in circles.

I rather you address my specific points instead of posting a long extract. I believe that you know everything in those extracts so you can tell me yourself in your own words. That way you will be able to address my points as I will be able to do to yours.

What did Jesus Mean:

"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath" (Matthew 24:20)?

If Sabbath observance was not a concern for Christians when Matthew wrote his Gospel, why did he mention Jesus words about fleeing on the Sabbath? Some people claim this is a command from Jesus for Christians to keep the Sabbath rest. Is this true?
We begin our explanation by noting an important point about Jesus statement. If we carefully read his words in Matthew 24:20, we find no command from his lips for Christians to observe a Sabbath rest. He simply advises Christians that for circumstantial reasons, they should pray that the need to flee will not arise on the Sabbath or in winter. Why it would not be prudent to flee in winter is obvious. Adverse weather conditions would hamper flight and put those fleeing at risk from the elements. But why would fleeing on the Sabbath day be a problem?
Here is where we have to be aware of Jewish customs and practices regarding the Sabbath. Jesus gave his warning to the disciples because of the possibility that Jewish people in Jerusalem and Judea would have prevented Christians from fleeing on the Sabbath. Please note that the warning was given "to those who are in Judea" (verse 16), not to disciples in other parts of the world. It is preserved only in Matthews Gospel, which was probably written to Jewish Christians.
Thus, the passage tells us more about the religious practices and social regulations regarding the Sabbath of non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem and Judea, than what the church would be doing about it. The context in which the warning about fleeing is given leads us to conclude that it has nothing to do with any supposed command for Christians to keep the Sabbath rest. Jesus gave his warning not because the church would be keeping the Sabbath but because Christians in Judea and Jerusalem might find it difficult or impossible to flee on this day,
Since the Jews honored Moses laws, they believed it was wrong to take long journeys on the Sabbath. They apparently even had a measurement for the distance to be traveled on this day, which was called a "Sabbath days walk" or journey (Acts 1:12). This was a short distance. In Lukes example it was the distance between the Mount of Olives, on the perimeter of Jerusalem, and the city itself. But Jesus warning was given in the context of a catastrophe on the city and Judea, which would have required getting much further out of the area than a limited "Sabbath days walk" might allow.
Further, the gates of Jerusalem were locked on the Sabbath day, which would have prevented people from fleeing the city. The Jews also had authority to police their own people regarding certain religious matters. The zealots especially, no doubt, would have tried to prevent fellow Jews from taking long journeys on the Sabbath. And they would have tried to prevent anyone from fleeing Jerusalem and Judea while the war with the Romans was in progress (A.D. 66-70). Such fleeing would have been considered a traitorous action by the Jews battling the Romans.
But Jesus said that people who were in all of Judea at the time of the crisis at Jerusalem would need to immediately flee far away into the hills. Jesus gave the warning in Matthew 24:20 because he knew that the Jews would not allow the kind of escape in troubling times on the Sabbath that his warning required. His warning was not a command to rest on the Sabbath any more than it was a command to rest in winter. These were simply inconvenient times to flee.
Warning for the future?
Those who interpret Matthew 24 as applying only to a future time claim the warning in verse 20 has nothing to do with the practices of Jews in the first century. Thus, Jewish customs with regard to the Sabbath would not have any relevance for explaining this verse. They note that Jewish authorities today an example for the future, they believe would not prevent people from fleeing the city or the area of ancient Judea. Matthew 24, they claim, is a warning for the future "time of the end" of the world. In this context, they teach that verse 20 is, indeed, a command for the Sabbath to be kept.
Does this theory have any validity? In fact, this idea of a future context to the warning in verse 20 is fraught with difficulties. Lets briefly look at some of the problems.
First, we have no idea what Jewish authorities might or might not allow during an unknown future time when it is claimed that all of the Holy Land will be in the throes of military, social and natural destruction and upheaval. Todays modern military power is overwhelming in its ability to pinpoint, corner and destroy. When Israel invaded Palestinian territory in April 2002 to prevent suicide bombers from killing Israelis, there was no escape for groups of people from any town, and certainly not from the area. The fact is, we have no way of knowing what might or might not be possible in terms of fleeing an area to safety and any escape seems doubtful at best.
Second, leaving this hypothetical argument aside, we need to once again repeat that there is no command in Matthew 24:20 for Christians to keep the Sabbath. Jesus doesnt say, "Keep the Sabbath holy." He says that those who are in Judea should hope they dont need to flee in winter or on the Sabbath day. That is not a command to keep a rest day; it is advice about adverse conditions for fleeing.
Third, if the warnings given throughout Matthew 24, including those about fleeing on the Sabbath, were meant only for some future "end times," then they would have had no meaning for the Christians to whom they were originally spoken, and then written. The hearers would have been confused by the meaning of such assertions. The existence of these warnings in a future scenario would require an explanation to the effect that Jesus was talking only to people living in some distant "end time." But no such explanation is evident in Matthew 24:20. The disciples who first heard these warnings are addressed throughout the chapter. In fact, Jesus says the following after giving such warnings as the one about fleeing on the Sabbath: "I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened" (verse 34).
Fourth, the idea that Matthew 24 refers to specific events in some future "end time" is speculation. Christians have been trying to understand how to interpret this chapter without great success or agreement for 1900 years. For example, some Christians believe that all the events mentioned in Matthew 24 were fulfilled before A.D. 70 and have no application for the subsequent history of the church, or for the future. The interpretation that these events are yet future is by no means proven.
Conclusion
The point is that we cannot use one speculative assertion (that Matthew 24 refers to a future time) as the basis for a dogmatic assertion about another unproved claim (that the Sabbath should be kept). Even here, before we lose our mooring, let us repeat a third time that verse 20 contains no command to keep the Sabbath. In fact, one can read the New Testament from Matthew through Revelation and he or she will not find a single instance in which the church is commanded to keep the Sabbath as "holy time."
Given all the above considerations, we can only conclude that Matthew 24:20 as written was a warning to Christians living at the time the book was written, and not specifically to Christians living in a supposed future time of "the end" of the world. The warning was given to Christians of that day living in Judea and Jerusalem because they would find it difficult or impossible to flee on a Sabbath day if circumstances demanded it. There is no command in this verse to keep the Sabbath as "holy time."[/quote]

The Romans would be the one to destroy Jerusalem and they would have control over Jerusalem. The point that jewish people would not allow others to flee is irrelevant because under Roman supremacy and rule at that time, when an entire city is being destroyed everyone has to flee for their lives. Look at the instance where Paul used to persecute the christians when they were in their synagogues. They had to flee for their lives and no one was telling them that they cannot flee because it is Sabbath. The next however, should not be taken as a command for Sabbath keeping. The point it bring across is that Jesus expected the Sabbath to still be kept at that period of time. It means that the early church must still honor the Sabbath because Jerusalem was destroyed in 64AD.

PROPHECYKID · Jul 29, 2009

You're misconstruing that scripture. Christians must obey the law of love, which supersedes both religious and civil laws. You'll see below is the fulfillment of the law.

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14)

Love fulfills the law. I am not misconstruing the scripture. Paul lists the last 6 commandments and says that if we have love for our neighbor we will fulfill the law. The last 6 commandments show love for God and they are summed up by simple saying "Thou shall love thy neighbour as thyself". Love does not supercede the law but fulfills it. So if you have love you will fulfill the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself is not a replacement for the commandments but a summary. If you do that one you will keep all others that hang on it. The Same goes for "Thou shall love the Lord thy God will all thy heart". Those 2 laws summarizes the entire commandments. The first 4 commandments show love for God while the last 6 show love for man.

If you look at the passage properly you will notice that Jesus was not giving them a new commandments but restating what was given before. In fact he quoted from the Old Testament.

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

The man asked which commandments was the greatest in the entire law. The law refers here to all the writings of Moses.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Jesus gave the man his answer by quoting the command contained in the law which was the greatest.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

It was the greatest because if this law was not observed, you cannot keep the others and even if you did it will not be for the right reason. So the notion that Jesus gave a new law is false. He merely quoted from the law, a command that was there before.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Again he quoted from the law:

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

John also acknowledged that the law of love was not something that was new.

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

This also responds to you piece below.

Even when the Israelites entered Canaan which was considered a type of rest, the reason we see why even in Hebrews why we today should not fail to enter as some of the Israelites did when Joshua help brought them in, is because they still lacked faith. The meaning of all of this is that we should not lack faith.

Because faith is what will get us into the promised land. Our eternal rest in heaven.

To support this claim, they cite Genesis 2:23: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. But we should notice that these verses do not contain a command to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God told Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) to keep the seventh day as a Sabbath. These verses do not tell us that God even informed Adam and Eve or anyone else (before He told the Israelites just after the Exodus) that God rested on the seventh day and sanctified it. Context is important in understanding the Bible, so it is important to understand that Moses wrote Genesis 2 in the context of the Exodus, centuries after the Creation, just after he led Israel out of Egypt. He wrote this account in the context of the law being given at Sinai.

It is true that the bible never says that God commanded Adam and Eve to keep the Sabbath. But the bible never says what commandments and statues God gave to Abraham either. We cannot base this upon what the bible did not mention and neglect what it did mention. The bible never says that God told cain he shouldn't kill his brother. The bible never says that God told Noah or anyone what animals were clean or unclean. The bible does tell us that God blessed the seventh day, hallowed it and sanctified it. To sanctify means to set apart for a holy purpose. Since creation the 7th day was set aside for a holy purpose. Didn't Adam know that God set apart the 7th day? Did God keep that as his little secret? The fact that set it apart and made it holy means that he did it for them and not for himself. God does not need a Sabbath but we do. It was made for us way back at creation. And we can say that no command was issued before the 10 commandments for Sabbath keeping, but that is not true. Many things that happened before the children of israel was left out. When God told Abraham his laws and statutes it was left out. The emphasis of the Old Testament was placed on the Children of Israel and how they came into being. Many of the earlier details are not given. We need to draw from what we know rather than base a belief on what we don't know. The sabbath was set apart and made holy at creation. If the Sabbath was made for man as Jesus said then it must have been also made for Adam and every man who lived after.

The connection of Genesis 2:23 to Exodus 20:11 cannot be overlooked, but neither should it be misunderstood. From the Creation to Exodus 16, the Sabbath is never commanded nor even mentioned. We must conclude that the reason is that it had not yet been instituted. The Holy Spirit inspired Moses to write Genesis 2:23 to show why the seventh day was the day God later commanded the Israelites to rest on. This information about God resting on the seventh day is repeated in Exodus 20:11. By observing the Sabbath, they were keeping a type of the rest God had observed at the Creation as described in Genesis 2.

We cannot say it was not commanded. We know that a command was not mentioned. We do not know any of the laws, statutes and judgements given to Abraham. We cannot dwell on what we do not know. What was the purpose for God resting on the Sabbath? Its nothing other than to give us an example. That is why Paul could have said in Hebrews that he who enters into his rest has also ceased from his own works as God did from his. God did it as an example. God did not need to rest.

Another common argument of Sabbath keepers is that the Fourth Commandment says, Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy (Exodus 20:8). If the Sabbath was something new, what was God telling them to remember? Only two possible answers fit the biblical evidence. 1) God was telling them to remember from that day onward. If I am giving a man directions, I might say, When you get to Main Street, remember to turn right. This in no way implies that this is information he should have known before. It merely means that he should remember this information at the time he needs it. God may have started the Sabbath command with remember because he knew the Israelites would have a tendency to forget it. The reason God ordered the Israelites to make fringes for their garments (Numbers 15:3839) shows us the Israelites had trouble remembering the commands God gave them at Sinai. 2) Another possible explanation for God using the word remember may be that He was telling them to remember the events of Exodus 16. They would not gather manna on the seventh day because it was the Sabbath. Exodus 16:23 is the first place in the Bible that the word Sabbath is found: And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. In Exodus 20:8, God may have been telling the Israelites to remember the lesson they learned in Exodus 16. ......

I would say that God said "Remember" because he knew we all would forget. Why did God have to give the 10 commandments? The Israelites were in bondage for over 400 years. How many of the surviving israelites were around before the slavery began. Most likely none. How could they have a relationship with God in slavery, not allowed to worship God and practice faith in God. They had to be retaught the ways of God. All they knew was what they got from the Egyptians. When Moses seemed to have died the first thing they did was make a golden calf. That was the Egytian thing to do.

Ezekiel says something similar: Wherefore I caused them [Israel] to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them (Ezekiel 20:1012). Here again we find that God gave the children of Israel the Sabbath after He brought them out of Egypt. He says nothing about their knowing this before that time and His having to remind them.

It was a new start for the Israelites. God therefore made the Sabbath with extra significance for them. The commandment already says that the reason for the Sabbath is because God worked 6 days and rested on the 7th, blessed the seventh day and hallowed it. For the Children of Israel at that time, God added more significance to the Sabbath to remind them of what he did for them.

An interesting point in this regard is found in Numbers 15:3236: And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses. The Sabbath command was so new that the people did not know how to punish someone who broke it.

The penalties for breaking the 10 commandments were given by God to Moses. No one knew before that what the penalty would be. This point is irrelevant. When cain murdered abel the penalty was different to how it was in the time of the Israelites. Only God determined the penalty, so before God told them, they would not know.

One of the issues that needs to be honestly faced is the fact that Jesus never commanded anyone to keep the Sabbath and none of His apostles ever commanded anyone to keep it either. Not once in the New Testament are we told to keep the Sabbath. Those commands to the Church are conspicuously absent from the teachings of the New Testament. Also, all through the NT many sins are listed, but not the breaking of the Sabbath. In Mark 7:21-22 ,Romans 1:29-32, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Timothy 3:1-4 displays a bunch of sin, yet breaking the Sabbath is not one of them.

There was no need for a command to keep the Sabbath. It was already being done. The problem was that their motives and the way in which they made the Sabbath a burden by their misunderstanding of what it means, needed to be changed. That is what Jesus worked on. Helping them and us to understand the Sabbath better. He did not need to command it. I had to cut some of your post to make room for mine. My apologies.

jarrettcpr · Jul 29, 2009

PROPHECYKID said:
I rather you address my specific points instead of posting a long extract. I believe that you know everything in those extracts so you can tell me yourself in your own words. That way you will be able to address my points as I will be able to do to yours.

Normally, I would just give my opinion. But as we all can tell this particular situation (What is the Sabbath and how do we keep it) has separated the church and even today there is still no consensus, obviously. So, I try and quote much smarter people than I, who use Scripture and reasoning that back up my and their assertions.

PROPHECYKID said:
The Romans would be the one to destroy Jerusalem and they would have control over Jerusalem. The point that jewish people would not allow others to flee is irrelevant because under Roman supremacy and rule at that time, when an entire city is being destroyed everyone has to flee for their lives. Look at the instance where Paul used to persecute the christians when they were in their synagogues. They had to flee for their lives and no one was telling them that they cannot flee because it is Sabbath. The next however, should not be taken as a command for Sabbath keeping. The point it bring across is that Jesus expected the Sabbath to still be kept at that period of time. It means that the early church must still honor the Sabbath because Jerusalem was destroyed in 64AD.

I honestly can't answer the above, to say it proves the case to keep the Sabbath or not (Or to even say Jesus was expecting Christians to keep it). I would have to study up on it. I'm sure there are several books and websites that cover this in depth.

I can only assume... Maybe one possible assumption is there were many Hebrews who were still practicing Judaism, and therefore the larger population still practiced the Sabbath under their strict guidelines (Even Jesus rejected the restrictive traditions of the elders).

Also, it's not always a given during a time of fighting/war/chaos that everyone will flee. We can see that today and by looking at the past. Many people given the circumstances will continue to stay in their homelands. There's some who will refuse to leave, while others simply can't leave b/c they're too poor, old, sick, and/or don't have anywhere else to go.

All I can do is quote verses that says we should not judge what/how people do/view on the Sabbath (as the day of rest and/or worship).

Verses I can use for my above assertions are these:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Colossians 2:16)

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

There is no command in the NT that says we're to keep the Sabbath. Also, throughout the NT sins are listed, but breaking the Sabbath is never mentioned.

I was gonna' try and not use an excerpt, but it tells exactly what I'm trying to write...

"
The Acts 15 conference had already concluded that Gentile converts did not need to keep the law of Moses and, judging by rabbinic writings, uncircumcised Gentiles were not expected to keep the Sabbath. Paul, writing to a church that contained both Jews and Gentiles, downplayed the significance of days (Romans 14:5). He explained that the Sabbath (like sacrifices) had typological significance and was not a matter for judging Christianity (Colossians 2:16). And he criticized any observance of any days that were part of a legalistic obligations (Galatians 4:10). The writer of Hebrews explained that the Sabbath typologically prefigured the eschatological rest, and it is that latter rest that Christians should strive to enter (Hebrews 4:1-10).
"

PROPHECYKID · Jul 30, 2009

Normally, I would just give my opinion. But as we all can tell this particular situation (What is the Sabbath and how do we keep it) has separated the church and even today there is still no consensus, obviously. So, I try and quote much smarter people than I, who use Scripture and reasoning that back up my and their assertions.

I understand what you mean. But if you have learnt something from them then you can share it with me without having to quote excerpts from them. And you must not say that they are smarter than you. They can be wrong as well.

I honestly can't answer the above, to say it proves the case to keep the Sabbath or not (Or to even say Jesus was expecting Christians to keep it). I would have to study up on it. I'm sure there are several books and websites that cover this in depth.[/QUOTE

The fact that he tells them to pray their flight not be on the Sabbath means that he expected that the sabbath would be being kept at that time.

I can only assume... Maybe one possible assumption is there were many Hebrews who were still practicing Judaism, and therefore the larger population still practiced the Sabbath under their strict guidelines (Even Jesus rejected the restrictive traditions of the elders).

Click to expand...

Jesus did reject their strict traditions but not the Sabbath. Jesus brought reform to the way they used to see the Sabbath. He did not violate it in his eyes but in theirs. They understood it wrongly and he tried to get them to understand it.

Also, it's not always a given during a time of fighting/war/chaos that everyone will flee. We can see that today and by looking at the past. Many people given the circumstances will continue to stay in their homelands. There's some who will refuse to leave, while others simply can't leave b/c they're too poor, old, sick, and/or don't have anywhere else to go.

Click to expand...

Well in this case the city was destroyed. So its either they stayed and died or fled.

All I can do is quote verses that says we should not judge what/how people do/view on the Sabbath (as the day of rest and/or worship).

Verses I can use for my above assertions are these:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Colossians 2:16)

Click to expand...

Its not the 7th day Sabbath being referred to here but the additional sabbaths made because of the ordinances that were done. Remember that all of this is a result of the handwriting of ordinances being blotted out. The handwriting of ordinances were against us. This is the book of the law written by Moses and placed on the side of the ark whereas the 10 commandments were written by God and placed inside the ark under the mercy seat. That book of the law included those additional sabbaths only coming into play because of those ordinances which pointed to Christ. Since those ordinances are blotted out, these other sabbaths are no longer relevant.

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5)

Click to expand...

Again this is a reference to the additional sabbath days. This is because the 7th day Sabbath was blessed and sactified and hallowed. Therefore, it is different to all other days by God's own work. The additional sabbath days were given significance because of the ordinances done on those days. For those who still believe in those ordinances and still practice them, they would esteem those days above the rest. For the man who does not he would not esteem them above the others. Notice that it is about how a man views it rather than the actual nature of the day. A man esteeming a day above another suggests that that day is not really above another day. The Sabbath was made holy and makes it different to the others. It will not change regardless of how a man esteems it.

There is no command in the NT that says we're to keep the Sabbath. Also, throughout the NT sins are listed, but breaking the Sabbath is never mentioned.

Click to expand...

Like I said before a command to keep the Sabbath was not necessary because it was being done. Just by Jesus saying that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath clearly suggests that he was in favor of it being kept properly.

The Acts 15 conference had already concluded that Gentile converts did not need to keep the law of Moses and, judging by rabbinic writings, uncircumcised Gentiles were not expected to keep the Sabbath. Paul, writing to a church that contained both Jews and Gentiles, downplayed the significance of days (Romans 14:5). He explained that the Sabbath (like sacrifices) had typological significance and was not a matter for judging Christianity (Colossians 2:16). And he criticized any observance of any days that were part of a legalistic obligations (Galatians 4:10). The writer of Hebrews explained that the Sabbath typologically prefigured the eschatological rest, and it is that latter rest that Christians should strive to enter (Hebrews 4:1-10).

Click to expand...

Acts 15 dealt with the issues that affected the conscience of a gentile believer the most because of their pagan background. Paul believed that they should focus on helping them get over their pagan beliefs first and foremost. The fear of eating foods being offered to idols was one of their biggest problems. Paul addressed that in Romans 14, I Cor 8 and I Cor 10. He advised that they stay away completely from foods offered to idols at that early stage, but in other parts we see him take a more firm stand against it knowing that such a fear was due to a lack of faith. The gentiles were not told in that council about stealing, killing, taking God's name in vain, idolatry or any of the other things that are important. They already knew that and they must have not had any trouble with those things. The Sabbath also did not seem to bother them as many times in acts we see the gentiles coming into the synagogue on the Sabbath.

what is the sabbath?

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