Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
So... The person who doesn't have the second chapter of Ezra, can they have life?Hi Leaf, I believe Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and James 4:17 answers this really well. God only holds us accountable to what we know not what we do not know and in times of ignorance God winks at until he gives us a knowledge of His truth at which time he expects us to believe and follow His Word.
That's right!In the last chapter of Acts, Paul is preaching the kingdom of God. There’s no separate kingdom for the Jews and plan B for gentiles. Both enter the kingdom by faith in Jesus as Messiah.
So glad to see you're back!THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL OR ANOTHER GOSPEL WHICH DO YOU FOLLOW?
Hi Guys,
The other thread seemed to have disappeared because of a technicality. Anyhow this is an undated version with some new questions for consideration.
In God's Word the bible speaks of the everlasting Gospel in Revelation 14:6 as part of the three angels messages as the last message of warning given to the world before the second coming and warns us about receiving "another gospel" preaching another Jesus or a false gospel that is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ (false teachings) in 2 Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-7; Acts of the Apostles 20:29.
I think this topic is an important one for us to understand as it is written in the very Words of Jesus, that in the last days there will be many false teachers seeking to lead God's people away from the truth of God's Word *Matthew 24:24; 2 Peter 2:1-3.
...................
QUESTIONS FOR THIS OP (I will link my answers to these question back here to the OP when answered)
Q1. What is the true gospel? (linked)
Q2. Why has God given us His grace for? (linked)
Q3. What is sin (linked)
Q4. Can we receive God's salvation and grace if we do not know what sin is?
Q5. Does God's law lead us to God's Grace if so how it not why not?
Q6. Can we have Gods' grace without God's law?
Q7. What is the purpose of God's law (10 commandments) in the new covenant?
...................
What do you think dear friends. Are you following the everlasting gospel and where is it leading you? What therefore is the "another gospel" and where can it lead us?
Friendly discussion please.
God bless
Christians don't have the right to label anyone a heretic but by God's word. --so you're problem isn't with any Christian labeling you a heretic, but God.Do what you want concerning days, but the rest of us don't want to be labeled as heretics because we go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday, or eat bacon:
Your reading of Acts chapter 15 is private: not only does Acts 15 not talk about murder, but it does specifically mention the Sabbath, and that by the head of the convention, James. --by your reading of Acts 15, the exclusion of forbidding murder voids it as a requirement. (Such conclusions are absurd on their face, and depraved at their core.)Acts 15 speaks about placing requirements upon Gentile believers - notably it does not include "Keeping the Sabbath" as a requirement. Romans 14 specifically says that not observing specific days (like the Sabbath) is not something to be corrected.
No where in the epistles is anyone corrected against bestiality, nor cannibalism, etc., thus, according to your reasoning, these are permissible--that reasoning is absurd.No where in the Epistles is anyone corrected for not meeting on the Sabbath day (Saturday). Although Hebrews 10:25 says "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together", there is no mention of a particular day in the week. The list of the "works of the flesh" in Galatians 5:19-21 does not include skipping the Sabbath - although traces can be made from that list to the other nine commandments.
That's the very point that you miss, "sabbaths", there are many, wherefore God separates the sabbaths of the old covenant from the seventh day of the week, for it is the Sabbath of the Lord, created as such, not labeled as such; for all the sabbaths of the old covenant are days that already existed, yet God relabeled them under the old covenant as reminders and lessons of things to come, but the seventh day is not labeled as the Sabbath, it is the Sabbath, created by God as such, period. --beware not to join what God has separated, nor to reject what He has created.Colossians 2:16 says "let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths".
You misunderstand the gospel.@LoveGodsWord
How many of the verses that you shared in #9 are actual didactic texts where the authors main goal is to define the Gospel? I notice lots conclusions based upon presuppositions and ideas concluded by way of the verses shared, but how many of those verses are actually trying to define the Gospel?
1 Corinthians 15 is an effort to define the Gospel, so that’s at least one section of the Bible.
That reading of Mark doesn't exist anywhere, but in modern translations.For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)The topic isn’t one I’ve got much of an investment in, but I’m curious how people in the chat who are still open to the idea of dietary restrictions (as a commandment) would understand the above material. Mark 7:19 ^^^^ for quick reading.
Hopefully a novel or careful take on the verse/chapter, not something I could just google myself.
That reading of Mark doesn't exist anywhere, but in modern translations.
All three are late discoveries, with their authenticities disputed heavily, to no end.Since codex sinaiticus, vaticanus and alexandrinus contain that particular reading of Mark 7:19, I’d consider those manuscripts to be less than modern.
All three are late discoveries, with their authenticities disputed heavily, to no end.
Your ignorance of the facts precludes you from judging what is a good reply and a terrible reply.Wow. That’s a truly terrible reply.Enjoy those conspiracy theories.
Hi John nice to see you again. I do not think anyone is labeling anyone here that I have seen or I am aware of as far as I know. I do not mind addressing these claims of yours however below as there is nothing you have provided here that says Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest. Some comments are posted below if not for you others may be interested.
Acts 15 is silent about the Sabbath just as it is about committing murder, lying, stealing, committing adultery, using God's name in vain, coveting your neighbors belongings, and worshiping other God's. This is because Acts 15 was never over the question of "Are the ten commandments a requirement for Christian living?" The question that Acts 15 was discussing was "Is circumcision a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers?" This is clearly shown in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 and this was the question Paul and Barnabas when to Jerusalem to discuss as shown in the scriptures. To have an interpretation of Acts 15 that God's 10 commandments are not a requirement for gentile believers contradicts most of the new testament scriptures and the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles who all kept the Sabbath and taught others to keep God's 10 commandments (scripture support here). Having the interpretation that Acts 15 was over the 10 commandments and not circumcision as it is written in Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 also makes Paul a hypocrite when he goes to the Corinthians believers not long afterwards and says "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God." in 1 Corinthians 7:19. According to the scriptures, Acts 15 has nothing to do with if God's 10 commandments are a requirement for Christian living. It was about if the Mosiac "shadow law" was a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers. The answer was no as they would continue learning God's Word every Sabbath *Acts of the Apostles 15:19-21.
Romans 14 says nothing at all about the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment and the subject matter has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments whatsoever. It is about eating and not eating (fasting) on days that men esteem over other days not what days God esteems and judging others in this regards. According to the scriptures the things that men esteem are an abomination to God (Luke 16:15). There is no mention at all in all of Romans 14 about Gods' 4th commandment and to suggest otherwise is to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say anywhere and do not teach. This practice of reading into scripture what it does not say or teach is called eisegesis and is not biblical.
That would be because everyone was keeping the Sabbath as shown in the scriptures *Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4.
Why would there need to be a scripture here about assembling on the Sabbath? According to the scriptures they were already doing so (see previous section) Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.
Colossians 2:16 as shown earlier through the within scripture and chapter contexts is to the annual ceremonial "shadow sabbaths" in the Feast days not God's 4th commandment.
These ceremonial sabbath(s) and days of holy convocation excluding work (sabbaton) included…
(1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8
(2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25
(3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32
(4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36
(5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39
(6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36
(7) Sabbath rest of the land (7-year cycle) *Leviticus 25:2
(8) Sabbath of Jubilee culminating of the 7x7 yearly cycles sabbaths *Leviticus 25:9-54
All of the above of course were different to God’s 4th commandment and could fall on any day of the week unlike Gods’ 4th commandment which is strictly every ) “seventh day” of the week.
These are the "shadow" sabbaths that Paul is referring to above not God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandment that gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken. These were to be fulfilled in the new covenant promise as the annual Feasts days and days of holy convocation all pointed to Christ as our Passover sacrifice for the sins of the world *1 Corinthians 5:7-8.
Let's now look at the old testament scriptures that Paul is referring to in Colossians 2:16 noting the order and scripture context which is to the meat and drink offerings, and the new moons and sabbaths in the annual Feast days...
COLOSSIANS 2:16 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in (1) MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an (2) HOLYDAY [FEASTIVALS], or of the (3) NEW MOON, or of the (4) SABBATH DAYS <plural GNP>
PAUL'S within scriptures CONTEXT and use of COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 is in reference to the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures.
EZEKIEL 45:17 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give BURNT OFFERINGS, and (1) MEAT OFFERINGS, and DRINK OFFERINGS, in the (2) FEASTS, and in the (3) NEW MOONS, and in the (4) SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the Sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual BURN'T OFFERING, and his DRINK OFFERING.
ISAIAH 1:10-14 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your NEW MOONS and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
LEVITICUS 23:4 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
HOSEA 2:11 [11], I will also cause all her mirth to CEASE, HER [ISRAEL'S] FEAST DAYS, her NEW MOONS, and HER SABBATHS, and all HER [ISRAELS] SOLEMN FEASTS.
Note in HOSEA the prophecy to put an end to all the end to all the annual feasts and in all the above scripture applications that link directly to Colossians 2:16, the sabbaths being referred to here are always applied the annual feast days, meat and drink offerings, and the new moons? So the scripture context is to the annual sabbaths in the feast days that are shadows of things to come. As shown earlier these annual ceremonial sabbaths or days of holy convocation included (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36
.................
CONCLUSION: WHAT IS PAUL REFERRING TO IN COLOSSIANS 2? Well of course it is the ceremonial “shadow laws” and the annual ceremonial shadow sabbaths in the annual Feast days from the Mosaic book of the law (Leviticus 23) not God's 4th commandment weekly Sabbath of the 10 commandments. The chapter context of Colossians 2:11-17 is to “circumcision” and “baptism” and the blotting out of the “ordinances that were against us” that were all “shadows of things to come v17. So there is nothing about Gods 10 commandments being referred to in Colossians 2 and the sabbaths are those connected directly to the annual Feast days not God's weekly Sabbath connected solely to the "seventh day" of every week as a memorial of creation *Exodus 20:8-11.
..............
So in summary John there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandment has been abolished and we are not commanded to keep Sunday or the first day of the week as a Holy day of rest. As shown earlier this is a man-made teaching and tradition handed down from the Roman Catholic Church to Protestantism today that has led many either knowingly or unknowingly to break God's commandments. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. Our God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship him in Spirit and in truth according to Jesus in John 4:23-24. So who should we believe and follow John, God or man? - Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29?
Hope this is helpful.
Only modern scholars, for the aforementioned reasons already posted in this thread, have the gull to add that note to their modern translations; and that, against history, and by basis on a few newly discovered works--which are heavily contested.NIV
For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
NLT
Food doesn’t go into your heart, but only passes through the stomach and then goes into the sewer.” (By saying this, he declared that every kind of food is acceptable in God’s eyes.)
ESV
since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Christian standard
For it doesn’t go into his heart but into the stomach and is eliminated” (thus he declared all foods clean ).
NASB
because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
I’m only stopping there because every translation seems to have it, the only exception being the KJV.
I know the parentheses can make a text look sketchy somehow, because we’re used to these things [[ ]]]] ((( ))) implying the translations are faulty or something, but everyone appears to agree that that’s part of the original text.
If you checked out a site like hermetic stock exchange etc, you’d find that it’s a perfectly valid portion of the original Bible.
I did. Circumcision is from the law of Moses not the 10 commandments. To come up with an interpretation that Acts of the Apostles 15 teaches that God's 10 commandments are no longer a requirement for christian living disagrees with pretty much all the new testament scriptures (scripture support here) as everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated as a requirement for Christian living and are also repeated all through the new covenant scriptures (scripture support here). Acts 15 was over the question "Is circumcision a requirement for salvation for new Gentile believers" *Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2 not are God's 10 commandments a requirement for Christian living. That interpretation of the scriptures makes Paul a hypocrite when he says after the Jerusalem decision to the Corinthian believers "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD." - 1 Corinthians 7:19.Acts 15, read the whole quote, the church assembled to settle the issue of those who claimed gentile Christians must be circumcised AND KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.
No. Read the rest of the chapter their decision was that "no circumcision from the law of Moses was not a requirement for God's salvation and was not required for new gentile believer. They also stated that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. -Acts of the Apostles 15:19-20. WHY? For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. - Acts of the Apostles 15:21. The new gentile believers would be continuing to learn the Word of God every Sabbath. Now let's get clear. Many try and use Acts 15 and read into it things it is not saying. It is not talking anywhere in this chapter about God's 10 commandments. It is talking about circumcision as a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers. Yes there is no mention of the Sabbath in Acts 15 just like there is no mention of not lying, stealing committing murder, committing adultery, taking God's name in vain, worshiping other Gods and making idols and coveting other peoples belongings. Does that now mean we are free to do all these thing? The fact is the subject matter and topic of conversation is over circumcision as a requirement for salvation not Gods 10 commandments being a requirement for Christian living - see 1 Corinthians 7:19Their conclusion was gentile Christians only need to keep from fornication and from blood and strangled meats, from the law of Moses - and Peter called the law a yoke of burden that they nor their fathers could bear - nothing was said about the need to keep the 7th day sabbath.
Please read the post and scriptures you are quoting from properly Chad before replying. There are many different kinds of sabbaths (plural) in the old covenant Mosaic book of the law linked into the annual Feasts. There ceremonial shadow sabbaths which I listed for you in the post you are quoting from are not the same as God's 4th commandments of God's 10 commandments which are a part of God's eternal law that according to the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; and James 2:10-11. The within scripture context and chapter subject matter of Colossians 2 that you have not addressed shows that the sabbaths in Colossians 2 are in reference to those of the annual Festivals not God's 4th commandment.In Colossians 2, it says the sabbaths, plural, were a shadow of Jesus, who is the substance. If you’d bother to look up the koine Greek word in translated SABBATHS in a Greek dictionary you’d find it says it includes all the sabbaths, especially the weekly sabbaths, not just so called shadow sabbaths.
No. The Jewish synagogues are like Jewish Church's that we have today. They are different to the temple. They gathered together in their Church's on the Sabbath in Jesus day and continued doing so even after the death and resurrection of Jesus. If Jesus was to teach that the Sabbath commandment was no more you think he would have had plenty of time to tell the disciples right? - Yet there is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is because Sunday worship is a man-made teaching. Jesus warns us in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God in Matthew 15:3-9 we are not worshiping God. So who should we believe and follow; God or man? For me only Gods' Word is true *Romans 3:4 and we should believe and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 5:29As to the claims the apostles kept the sabbaths, reading the texts in context makes it clear they went into synagogues, not churches, on the sabbath, because that’s the day that the Jews were present to hear the gospel of Christ presented - if they preached on Sunday there would be no one there.
All three are late discoveries, with their authenticities disputed heavily, to no end.
--By deferring to these three, you have more thoroughly, proved my point.
No. Read the rest of the chapter their decision was that "no circumcision from the law of Moses was not a requirement for God's salvation and was not required for new gentile believer. They also stated that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write to them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled,
I know what the ten commandments are, but how are they the old covenant? Can you really explain your claim?Spin it all you want, the ten commands are not only part of the law of Moses, they were the old covenant itself, as they are called THE COVENANT ON TWO TABLES OF STONE, and the old covenant has ended completely, replaced by a new covenant founded on better promises.
Again, are you able to explain how the ten commandments are the ministry of death? Also, can you explain your claim that Peter refers to the ten commandments as a yoke that they couldn't bear? and can you please include why Peter would say that about the ten commandments?From the entire law of Moses, the gentiles were told to keep those things I listed, and in Acts 15 Peter calls the law of Moses a yoke neither them, or their fathers could bear, 2 Corinthians 3 makes it crystal clear that the ten commands given to Moses, are the ministry of death, of condemnation, and is the letter that kills. In Galatians 4:21-31 Paul states that the covenant given on mount Sinai is SLAVERY.
Can you explain how the "love commands" tell me what to do?The ten commands are superseded by the two love commands, which are far superior to the ten on how well to treat our neighbors.
There is no anything in the two, as far as I can tell, without the law; wherefore, I've asked for you to explain what the two tell me to do, thanks.There is no day keeping at all required in the two, the church can assemble any day they choose.
From what I remember, the Lord's body was resting on the Sabbath, and He 'got up' on the first day of the week ('Sunday')... --How do those facts equate to the Sabbath no longer being the prescribed day of rest?The apostles assembled together for church on the first day of the week, and Jesus appeared to them on that day, not on Saturday. John 20:19
The scripture you cited doesn't say that: why are you saying that the scriptures say that the church gathered every week on the first day of the week?The early church started church by assembling together and eating a common meal, then taking communion, which scripture says they did on the first day of each week. Acts 20:7.
How, in your reasoning, was it possible for them to keep the Sabbath by offering a burnt offering, seeing that they were forbidden, according to you, from having fires on the Sabbath?Sabbath keepers don’t really keep the sabbath, they just play at it, because a burnt offering from animal sacrifice is an integral part of each sabbath observance - also it’s commanded them to have no fire in their habitation on the sabbath, meaning no cooking, no hot water heater, and no furnace, can be used.
Imagine not contradicting yourself when espousing your own beliefs.Imagine having no heat in Siberia if you are a sabbath keeper.
Who told you that the seventh day is a ceremonial day of rest?The 7th day sabbath is an ended ceremonial day of rest.
Keep it if you want, but don’t tell me I’m breaking a command from the ended old covenant on two tables of stone.
Often, partial citations of simple passages like this cause me to doubt about the motivations of the poster, viz:1 Timothy 1:5-7 (ESV)
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
Sometimes simple passages like this just make me wonder about threads on the interweb.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?