WHAT IS THE REAL GOSPEL?

Nathan@work said:

None of those passages say anything about God choosing some of Israel and not some of Israel.

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So how was the division of Israel determined, if not by God? What else happens that is outside of God's control?

Romans 9:6-8, "It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.” This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants."

pescador said:

What does "choosing some of Israel and not some of Israel" mean? That is doublespeak.

Not all Israel is Israel. Romans 9:6, "It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." Do you think that this happened without God's knowledge? If so, what other person/force besides God determined who are the true Israel?

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Huh?

The passage in Romans is talking about the contrast of fleshly lineage(who ALL had the law) of Israel to the Spiritual Israel.

You cannot use the logic of God knowing who would choose not to believe, to Him making that decision for them.

It was Israel’s decision to not believe, to not have Faith - not Gods.

God knows your sin - you do not believe He chooses it for you right?

LoveGodsWord said:

Well that is not true dear friend. I posted God's Word verbatim (literally word for word), and your saying it does not say what it it saying word for word?

Hebrews 4:3-5 [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. [4], For he spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. [5], And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

The reference here is to Genesis 2:1-3.

The above are all God's Words not my words. Why are you disagreeing with what the scriptures says? If your disagreeing with what the scriptures say then your argument is with God not me.

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Think about it for a moment. In your zeal you are trying to say something I am not.

If Gods ‘works’ as a whole were finished from the foundation of the world, then why did He rest after 6 days of creation?

LoveGodsWord said:

Paul stating in Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH.

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What translation are you using that says this?

I cannot find one that says this. Therefore, it is just what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

LoveGodsWord said:

What does Genesis 2:1-3 and Mark 2:27 have in common? God made the Sabbath for all mankind as a memorial of creation and God as the creator of heaven and earth *Exodus 20:8-11. God's rest is the "seventh day" sabbath made from the foundation of the world and only those who believe and follow Gods' Word (the gospel ) enter into it *Hebrews 4:1-9.

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That is not what the passage says. You misquoted it again.

Did God work the six days of creation?

LoveGodsWord said:

No. It is not what I want it to say it is what God's Word says and the literal Greek translation of the scriptures verbatim (word for word). You did not read post # 587 linked did you. If you did you would not have asked this question.

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It is a simple question. What translation are you quoting from?

I’ll post it once you tell me, and we can compare side by side if you are telling the truth.

LoveGodsWord said:

No, I quoted God's word as shown earlier verbatim, word for word from God's Word that is not my words but God's Word. It seems for whatever reason you do not believe these scriptures shared with you. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them and you have not provided any. (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Yes God did indeed work on the six days of creation and rested on the seventh *Genesis 2:1-3. Read the scriptures shared with you.

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So if He worked the six days of creation, then the work He rested from before the foundation of the earth is not all work - but a specific work.

What work was it He rested from the foundation of the earth?

LoveGodsWord said:

Your question has already been answered in post # 587 linked. You can read them for yourself there and perhaps you can apologize for all your false claims and accusations that I am not telling the truth when all I have provided here is scripture that are not mine but Gods' which is the very definition of what truth is *John 17:17.

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So your quoting from the Lamsa Bible?

Why not just say that? Is that what you normally use, or is it just the one that fits your thoughts?

Do you agree with everything George Lamsa translated, or just this passage in particular?

LoveGodsWord said:

The answer is in the post you are quoting from creation (Genesis 2:1-3). Are you reading the scriptures and the posts shared with you Nathan?

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I am reading. Yet all you do is say "the answer is in the post you are quoting".

That is not an answer. What I do not understand is when I tell you something like that, you say "No Nathan, you did not answer my question". Seems a bit hypocritical.

So, I will answer my question for you.

The 'work' God rested from the foundation of the world is His 'work' of Christ - and our Salvation in Him.

[Eph 1:3-10 ESV] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

The Sabbath day of creation, God rested from His 'work' of creating.

[Gen 2:1-3 ESV] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

So you see, there is a difference in the rest before the creation - and the rest after the creation.

He rested, both times, but for different reasons - they are however intrinsically linked.

Nathan@work said:

Paul, or whoever wrote Hebrews, does not state in Hebrews 4:9 that "THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH".

This is where you first went off track in misquoting which is what I was originally called you out on. It just went further south from there.....

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[STAFF EDITED]

In regards to Hebrews 4:9, Sabbatismos is only used once in the Bible and is properly translated "sabbath rest," yet in context in Hebrews 4, we can see the author of Hebrews is attaching to the sabbath a new and expanded meaning beyond that of sabbaton, which is otherwise used to denote the weekly sabbath day under the law.

*Had the writer of Hebrews wanted to indicate the 7th day sabbath, he would have used sabbaton, the standard word for sabbath. But he didn't. The whole context is about rest, so sabbatismos must be understood as "sabbath rest" in an expanded meaning beyond that of sabbaton, as WE Vine's correctly points out.

Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.

SABBATISMOS a Sabbath-keeping, is used in Heb. 4:9, R.V., "a Sabbath rest," A.V. marg., "a keeping of a Sabbath" (akin to sabbatizoµ, to keep the Sabbath, used, e.g., in Ex. 16:30, not in the N.T.); here the Sabbath-keeping is the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law.

Hebrews 4:10 says the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. That person has entered in God’s rest through Jesus "rests from his own work" (in contrast with law keeping) as God ceased or rested from His works in the seventh day of Creation. God's ultimate, true rest did not come through Joshua or Moses, but through Jesus Christ. Joshua led Israel into the promised land, which was merely the earthly rest which was but a shadow of what was involved in the heavenly rest. The rest in Christ that God offers is spiritual and is superior to that which Joshua obtained. Israel's earthly rest was filled with conflict and attacks from their enemies and the daily cycle of work. The "sabbatismos" rest enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly sabbath under the law, is found only in Christ and not Law keeping.

Although for centuries the Jews had found their physical rest in a day, the new covenant takes the focus off the shadows of the Old Testament signs and rituals and reveals their spiritual substance, the fulfillment/reality—in the person of Jesus Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17) Christians find "sabbatismos" rest in Christ's finished work on the cross through faith in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, which is what it means to "believe" the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Rest for the Christian is entered into by ceasing from one’s "works" of trying to earn salvation though keeping the law, namely, "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9) Paul explains that the Jewish holy days, including the weekly sabbath, were merely a “shadow” which pointed to Christ; therefore, Christians should not feel obligated to observe them once the "reality" has come. (Colossians 2.16-17)

For an Adventist to give up weekly sabbath keeping is essentially giving up salvation. They even teach the ludicrous doctrine that near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.

Mark of the Beast

"Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible." (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).

"The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850).

"The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church.” ... “The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281).

Ellen White - "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." 1 Samuel 2:30. E.G. White, 6 Testimonies, pp. 353-356.

Ellen G White also claimed she had a vision in which she was shown the law of God in a heavenly sanctuary, and the fourth commandment (concerning the sabbath) was surrounded by a halo of light, then began to uphold sabbath-keeping as a primary doctrine.

Ellen G White: In the holiest I saw an ark; ... In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious—a halo of glory was all around it. Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 32, 33.

Ellen G White makes an idol of the sabbath commandment by saying that it shown brighter than the rest with a halo around it. The fact remains that the sabbath commandment from the old covenant for Israel was never included in the new covenant for Christians. It was a law given to the Israelites under the old covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; 35:1-3; Deuteronomy 5:1-15; Numbers 15:32-36; Nehemiah 9:13 etc..) and not to Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

I think it was maybe because you did not like what I was saying, or like my question of how does, someone enter His rest. I do not know, regardless, feel free to provide a translation that says "Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" in Hebrews 4:9.

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Misguided teachers of the law are forced to interpret "sabbatismos" rest basically as sabbaton (keep the weekly sabbath day under the law) because they miss the expanded meaning from the context of Hebrews 4 and remain on the old covenant plantation of law. Reminds me of the Israelites in Romans 10:1-4.

LoveGodsWord said:

No please read post # 587 linked you were posted a number of translations, the original Greek, Interlinear, Greek Dictionary and Lexicon application to sabbatizmos as well as the chapter and scripture context of Hebrews 4:1-12. May I ask what you think this post and all the scriptures provided mean in the linked post shared with you? How did you interpret my post and what do you think it is saying?

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I interpret your post as one that is looking to support what you believe. That is how I see your post you linked.

Now, in the context of Hebrews chapter 4, there we find the two 'rests' of God.

[Heb 4:1-11 ESV]

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Your getting hung up on the definition of one word in a passage of many words. The Sabbath rest that remains, or if we are to use your preferred definition - "The Sabbath that remains to be kept" - is the Sabbath of our rest from our works as God did His in creation.

This is NOT speaking of keeping the weekly Sabbath day.

Nathan@work said:

I interpret your post as one that is looking to support what you believe. That is how I see your post you linked.

Now, in the context of Hebrews chapter 4, there we find the two 'rests' of God.

[Heb 4:1-11 ESV]

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.

For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." And again in this passage he said, "They shall not enter my rest."

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Your getting hung up on the definition of one word in a passage of many words. The Sabbath rest that remains, or if we are to use your preferred definition - "The Sabbath that remains to be kept" - is the Sabbath of our rest from our works as God did His in creation.

This is NOT speaking of keeping the weekly Sabbath day.

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Amen! It's so nice to see that someone gets it.