What is the purpose behind an eternal hell?

[aiki]

Indeed. But the question was: "why is eternal, conscious torment necessary to separate people from God". Presumably annihilation would do the trick as well. So why the former and not the latter?

Because hell is intended to be punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment. One cannot be punished when one does not exist.

Why eternal, conscious punishment? Because that is what a holy, just God has determined is the appropriate response to our sin.

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

Because hell is intended to be punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment. One cannot be punished when one does not exist.

Why eternal, conscious punishment? Because that is what a holy, just God has determined is the appropriate response to our sin.

Selah.

So if someone is born in a region, that happens to be of a different religion and they live a life of helping others, it is just punishment to have them experience eternal torment?

 

[food4thought]

So if someone is born in a region, that happens to be of a different religion and they live a life of helping others, it is just punishment to have them experience eternal torment?

God is good, merciful, and just. I do not know how He will handle those who never heard the gospel, but I trust that His judgment will be just, good, and right.

Also, you misunderstand the nature of God's judgment... He looks at the attitudes of the heart and the reason we do what we do, not just what we do. So someone can do all the right things, but do it to look good before men or feel good about themself instead of out of genuine love for God and man. God will judge rightly in the end, of that we can be sure based upon His character and perfect knowledge.

 

[ScottA]

So if someone is born in a region, that happens to be of a different religion and they live a life of helping others, it is just punishment to have them experience eternal torment?

Ask yourself (the answer will be the same):

If you created a theater presentation and gave parts to 100 people, and when it was finished, offered 50 people other future parts...would it be unfair for you not to give all 100 additional parts...or should they be happy to have received the one part, and even happy also for those who got two parts?

But, as for punishment: there is no punishment for those who are not under the jurisdiction of the law.

 

[Davian]

Well, if the Strawman thinking you've offered in your post is typical of your understanding of the faith, I'm not surprised.

Selah.

What did I say that you would consider inaccurate?

 

[Davian]

Indeed. But the question was: "why is eternal, conscious torment necessary to separate people from God". Presumably annihilation would do the trick as well. So why the former and not the latter?

The former would presumably instil more fear. If the point of a religion is the control of a populace, then you need incentives for as many as possible to believe, using both the carrot and the stick.

 

[Tree of Life]

The former would presumably instil more fear. If the point of a religion is the control of a populace, then you need incentives for as many as possible to believe, using both the carrot and the stick.

Sounds like something that someone who's never been part of a church would say. The doctrine of hell is not used to instill fear or control any populace.

 

[aiki]

So if someone is born in a region, that happens to be of a different religion and they live a life of helping others, it is just punishment to have them experience eternal torment?

The apostle Paul answers this question in his letter to the Roman Christians:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

If Paul is correct - and I believe he is - every person (who isn't laboring under a severe intellectual deficiency) understands innately that there is a God, a Creator, who made them. They can see Him in the nature of the universe and themselves. They also have a dim reflection of Him in their own conscience and the fundamental moral sense every human possesses. But, as Paul writes above, humans suppress the truth of God and turn instead to Self-worship. And so they all stand before God "without excuse." They had some knowledge of God - however vague - to which they had a choice to respond either positively or negatively. When they choose to turn from their innate knowledge of God, to suppress the truth of Him in their own lives, they move under God's wrathful judgment.

So, what about the person in a Hindu or Muslim-dominated society who never hears of Christ and his sacrifice for them? Should God give them a free pass on the basis of their ignorance? Well, if Hell was just about knowledge, perhaps He should. But Hell is about judging our deeds; it is a punishment of our wickedness. We are condemned for turning from the truth to the worship of ourselves because doing so is a sinful act. We act, at least some of the time, out of impure, selfish motives and in violation of the "law of God written on our hearts" (reflected in our conscience and God-given moral sense) and when we do, we sin. A just God must punish evil, He must punish sin. And so, since every person is guilty of sin, every person stands before God condemned. Thus, Hell is not something we can escape by pleading ignorance. Hell is a judgment upon our sinful thoughts, words and deeds, not a judgment upon the scope of our knowledge.

Beyond this, though, God promises that He will reveal Himself to all who truly want to know Him. And this has been the experience of many people not raised in a Christian community. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, even atheists who have genuinely wanted to know God have, regardless of their geography or social environment, come to faith in Christ. I have, for instance, heard a number of stories about how Jesus has revealed himself to Muslims in dreams. Some of their stories you can find on YouTube. I have heard missionaries tell of Chinese people and Africans who wanted to know God and asked Him to send to them someone who tell could them about Him. And when Christian missionaries appeared from the other side of the world to tell them of the Gospel and the God revealed in the Bible, they praised God for answering their prayers!

Anyway, God is not unfair about His punishment of the wicked. Though totally undeserved, He has offered to all a way to escape His terrible wrath and promised to make that way known to all who truly want to find Him. No one HAS to go to Hell.

Selah.

 

[Davian]

Sounds like something that someone who's never been part of a church would say.

A contemporary church, perhaps. I had in mind the churches back when they were far more integral with the governance of society, and far less tolerant of dissenters.

The doctrine of hell is not used to instill fear or control any populace.

I can recall dozens of responses on this site where the you-are-going-to-go-to-hell scare tactic has been used on me. To no effect, of course.

 

[food4thought]

The former would presumably instil more fear. If the point of a religion is the control of a populace, then you need incentives for as many as possible to believe, using both the carrot and the stick.

There is a very big difference between the religion of men that dominated the church through the midieval times, often perpetuated now, and the faith described by the Bible. It is not about controling the populace, it is about transforming a broken and lost soul into the image of Jesus Christ. Remember, the early church was not in power and was intensely persecuted first by the Jewish rulers, and later by the Roman Empire... it was only when the Empire forced Christianity as the state religion that it began to be used as a tool of the state to control the population.

 

[Tree of Life]

A contemporary church, perhaps. I had in mind the churches back when they were far more integral with the governance of society, and far less tolerant of dissenters.

That wouldn't have been until long after the doctrine of hell had well been established. The church was an obscure, sub-cultural movement for at least its first 350 years. Not to mention the time before Christ when it was a sub-dominate nation under occupation by foreign nations.

 

[Davian]

The apostle Paul answers this question in his letter to the Roman Christians:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

If Paul is correct - and I believe he is - every person (who isn't laboring under a severe intellectual deficiency) understands innately that there is a God, a Creator, who made them. They can see Him in the nature of the universe and themselves. They also have a dim reflection of Him in their own conscience and the fundamental moral sense every human possesses.

Everyone that disagrees with your particular region is lying? How convenient for you.

But, as Paul writes above, humans suppress the truth of God and turn instead to Self-worship.

If I tell you how you think, and I am wrong, am I still wrong?

And so they all stand before God "without excuse."

I don't see why "I am not convinced" requires an excuse.

They had some knowledge of God - however vague - to which they had a choice to respond either positively or negatively. When they choose to turn from their innate knowledge of God, to suppress the truth of Him in their own lives, they move under God's wrathful judgment.

There is that fear factor again. Scary.

So, what about the person in a Hindu or Muslim-dominated society who never hears of Christ and his sacrifice for them? Should God give them a free pass on the basis of their ignorance? Well, if Hell was just about knowledge, perhaps He should. But Hell is about judging our deeds; it is a punishment of our wickedness. We are condemned for turning from the truth to the worship of ourselves because doing so is a sinful act. We act, at least some of the time, out of impure, selfish motives and in violation of the "law of God written on our hearts" (reflected in our conscience and God-given moral sense) and when we do, we sin. A just God must punish evil, He must punish sin. And so, since every person is guilty of sin, every person stands before God condemned. Thus, Hell is not something we can escape by pleading ignorance. Hell is a judgment upon our sinful thoughts, words and deeds, not a judgment upon the scope of our knowledge.

Of course, as we can't have someone avoiding the threat of Hell by merely restraining themselves from raping and slaughtering their neighbours. But then, I gather that the raping and slaughtering of your neighbours will not preclude one from entering Heaven. A strange system of "morality", indeed.

Beyond this, though, God promises that He will reveal Himself to all who truly want to know Him. And this has been the experience of many people not raised in a Christian community. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, even atheists who have genuinely wanted to know God have, regardless of their geography or social environment, come to faith in Christ. I have, for instance, heard a number of stories about how Jesus has revealed himself to Muslims in dreams. Some of their stories you can find on YouTube. I have heard missionaries tell of Chinese people and Africans who wanted to know God and asked Him to send to them someone who tell could them about Him. And when Christian missionaries appeared from the other side of the world to tell them of the Gospel and the God revealed in the Bible, they praised God for answering their prayers!

Anyway, God is not unfair about His punishment of the wicked. Though totally undeserved, He has offered to all a way to escape His terrible wrath and promised to make that way known to all who truly want to find Him. No one HAS to go to Hell.

Why would I want to find the fictional? Belief is not a conscious action; I cannot simply decide to believe gods are real.

Selah.

 

[food4thought]

Everyone that disagrees with your particular region is lying? How convenient for you.

Where does it say that they are lying? It says they are deceiving themselves

Why would I want to find the fictional? Belief is not a conscious action; I cannot simply decide to believe gods are real.

So everyone that disagrees with your unbelief is worshipping a fictional character?

how convenient for you

 

[aiki]

Everyone that disagrees with your particular region is lying? How convenient for you.

No, everyone who disagrees with the truth is foolish and self-deceived.

If I tell you how you think, and I am wrong, am I still wrong?

If you're self-deceived or deluded and I tell you that you are, am I wrong simply because you deny it?

I don't see why "I am not convinced" requires an excuse.

"I'm not convinced" doesn't require an excuse, it is an excuse. And, for the reasons Paul explained, God won't accept it.

There is that fear factor again. Scary.

And rightly so.

Of course, as we can't have someone avoiding the threat of Hell by merely restraining themselves from raping and slaughtering their neighbours. But then, I gather that the raping and slaughtering of your neighbours will not preclude one from entering Heaven. A strange system of "morality", indeed.

No one gets into heaven on the basis of their own merits. The doorway to heaven is through the perfect Person of Jesus Christ, not the moral quality or quantity of our deeds. As the Bible says, "For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory."

Why would I want to find the fictional? Belief is not a conscious action; I cannot simply decide to believe gods are real.

Sure you can. It isn't that you lack the capacity to believe. You exercise faith in all sorts of things every day. You just haven't chosen to do so toward God.

Selah.

 

[bhsmte]

Where does it say that they are lying? It says they are deceiving themselves



So everyone that disagrees with your unbelief is worshipping a fictional character?

how convenient for you

Is it possible your deceiving yourself, or is that only reserved for those who disagree with you?

 

[Davian]

There is a very big difference between the religion of men that dominated the church through the midieval times, often perpetuated now, and the faith described by the Bible.

I am not aware of any difference. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, all religions are products of men.

It is not about controling the populace, it is about transforming a broken and lost soul into the image of Jesus Christ.

Sure, you can lead with that, but the historical effect of religion on governments is observable.

Remember, the early church was not in power and was intensely persecuted first by the Jewish rulers, and later by the Roman Empire... it was only when the Empire forced Christianity as the state religion that it began to be used as a tool of the state to control the population.

Which is not in contradiction to what I said.

 

[Davian]

That wouldn't have been until long after the doctrine of hell had well been established. The church was an obscure, sub-cultural movement for at least its first 350 years. Not to mention the time before Christ when it was a sub-dominate nation under occupation by foreign nations.

Okay. What has that to do with what I said?

 

[Davian]

Where does it say that they are lying? It says they are deceiving themselves

Deception is a form of lying, whether it be to others, or yourself.

So everyone that disagrees with your unbelief is worshipping a fictional character?

I hold tentative conclusions that those things that are claimed to exist, whether they be gods, Bigfoot, or visiting extraterrestrial aliens, are fictional until demonstrated otherwise.

Those conclusions are subject to change, based on new information.

how convenient for you

It is. I see no need to take precautions against me or my family members being abducted by aliens in the night. How about you? What precautions do you take?

 

[Tree of Life]

Okay. What has that to do with what I said?

You seem to think that hell was invented in order to control the populace? But the doctrine of hell really originated and developed during a time when the church had no control over any populace. So I was just pointing out that you're probably wrong.

 

[food4thought]

Is it possible your deceiving yourself, or is that only reserved for those who disagree with you?

Is it possible? Yes. But as you see no reason to believe, I have seen so much that I cannot help but believe. I cannot vouch for your experience (or, I should say, lack of), only mine. If I am delusional, I am EXTREMELY delusional