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What is the point?

Discussion in 'Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal - Presbyterian' started by SPB1987, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    Don't waste yourself.

    The power of "NOW" always begins with God. God creates Time and He is the "Present". No one really lives in the present. You have to be created first to exist. They live in nano micro split seconds after the present. meaning they only think a touch too late and takes them way too long to recognize the moment. The free will bullies only see what their slow poke brain tells them to see. They don't see God being in total charge of the present. "NOW" is the time to take it as the Bible states it. alone.

    Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled. Perhaps that one maverick molecule will lay waste all the ground and glorious plans that God has made and promised to us. ... If we reject divine sovereignty then we must embrace atheism.” (Chosen by God, pp.26-27)

    So yeah, if you want to think like a wise man (CLICK HERE) you might wanna say, "Choosing without choosing" or "Robots without robots".
    Most wise men would say, "stop asking too many questions". If you wanna be a free willer then go ahead but you'll be living in a constant lie if you do.

    The Art of Fighting without Fighting - Bruce Lee (HD) ORIGINAL - YouTube
     
  2. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, writes: “But Adam and Eve were not created fallen. They had no sin nature. They were good creatures with a free will. Yet they chose to sin. Why? I don’t know. Nor have I found anyone yet who does know.” (Chosen By God, p.31, emphasis)
     
  3. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    This is confusing. If we are predestined then how did Adam and Eve choose to sin?
     
  4. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    Calvinism totally rejects "predestination" defined as the Supreme Being making people do what they didn't want to do.
     
  5. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    Rather than just saying this, why don't you explain how Calvinism actually defines predestination?
     
  6. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    [​IMG]

    [SIZE=+1]Serious wise men don't go wrong[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=+1]
    The first place we attack this kind of misconception about Calvinism is where it judges God as just any other human. The Supreme Being ain't a creature ! Like parents don't have to go to bed at the bedtime they set for their children, God isn't obliged to the same rules set down for His creatures. This where semi-Pelagians (Arminians, Romanists) first go wrong: They contrive a moral equivalence between humans and Deity which just doesn't exist ! We exist for the Lord's glory. There's no corresponding parallel where God exists for our glory. The relationship [God/Man], therefore, is NOT egalitarian. Thus we gravely err whenever we judge the Supreme Being by our standards ! Only after we establish this basic fact can we discuss the particulars of what "free" will is, and what predestination means.
    [/SIZE]
     
  7. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    [​IMG]

    We reject the notion of "fate", and -especially- any characterization of Calvinists as fatalists.

    "Fate" carries the connotation of an impersonal force directing the course of events.

    Calvinist deny any such thing !

    We see an intelligent and personal Supreme Being having total sovereignty over every element and aspect of the physical universe He created.

    Therefore, "fate vs. free will" vis-a-vis Calvinism and Arminianism misrepresents the issues.

    We would frame the matter: God's Sovereignty vs. Human Autonomy.

    Let's be real clear about this up front.

    And also a couple other things...

    First, Reformation Christians don't deny humans having any 'free will'. , but we affirm human volition and, specifically, a voluntary human volition.

    We disaffirm all concepts of Divine Mind Control where humans are used by God as zombies. Such a doctrine would absolve people of the responsibility for their thoughts and actions which Scripture so clearly places on them !

    Secondly, the sovereignty of God vis-a-vis volition is not just a Calvinist position. The same doctrine was maintained by Luther (Bondage of the Will; Ch. 2, Sec. 9; Ch. 4, Sec. 1; ect.; Martin Luther).

    And -as risingspirit shall demonstrate- the same doctrine as found in God's Word.
     
  8. DocNH

    DocNH Junior Member

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    Election was before the foundation of the world - Eph 1:4-5,11, etc. if you are the only one in your family that is and will be saved,then yes, you were the only one that was elected.

    Some people speak of free-will as if they may choose anything at all, even choose things that are outside of their nature. A better term for understanding man's ability to choose is free agency, that man is free to choose anything according to his nature. The Scripture teaches us that our nature before Christ is dead in sin- Eph 2:2. It did not desire God, nor could it as it was enslaved to sin - Rom 8:5-8. This bondage or enslavement limits our choices. We only make choices within the limits of our chains we are in bondage too.

    When Spirit calls and regenerates a person - John 3 - then he has a new nature and receives the gifts of grace - Eph. 2:8-10 and repentance 2 Tim. 2:24-26. The chains of bondage have been loosed and in the dungeon of their sin they see a bright light which they are irresistibly drawn toward. Justification, adoption, etc follow in this marvelous chain of grace (ordo salutis).

    Evangelical efforts, prayers, etc. are included in God's eternal plan and therefore he commands them. For instance, Hezekiah in 2 Kings 20:1-11. In the text, God gives a conditional judgment. Hezekiah knew that God alone determines when repentance will turn his wrath aside (2 Sam 12:22; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9). Hezekiah repents and God adds fifteen (15) years to his life. If Hezekiah had not repented then God, true to his nature, would have carried out his judgment in full.

    However, true to God being all-knowing and ordaining all things for his own glory Hezekiah repented. How do we know that all this was ordained? Why was Isaiah used as a secondary means in the ordained purpose of God? Who was Hezekiah's son? His name was Manasseh. Manasseh was in the linage of Christ (Matt. 1:10) who was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:19-20) to be born and die for the sins of his people (Rom 5:15).

    Without Isaiah's evangelistic efforts and Hezekiah's repentance the lineage of Christ would have been destroyed. Thus, this reveals that God's eternal plan is always on schedule and that he uses secondary causes (i.e. obedience to his word, repentance, prayer, WCF 5: Of Providence, et. al.) to insure they do. This also shows that God did not change his original plan to accommodate the sins of others. God's plan will never be overthrown (Dan 4:35; Psa 115:3, etc.). God is immutable and sovereign.

    All who are elect will be saved.

    Evangelism: Why should we preach the gospel?

     
  9. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    [SIZE=+1]If everybody did right, Adam wouldn't have
    sinned, and we wouldn't be in this situation !

    Theonomy is "God's Law", So, if we don't
    need any laws because all people do the
    right thing without it, then we ain't talking
    theonomy any more ! Sounds rather like
    Universalism, instead.
    [/SIZE]
     
  10. DocNH

    DocNH Junior Member

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    Adam and Eve were created very good (Gen. 1:31). So we know that God created man with an inclination toward good. We also know that pre-fall man was not in bondage to sin. However, in the Garden man was also in probationary state. In the Covenant of Works, he had a choice between two trees ....

    Now while man was inclined to choose good, God created his nature in such a way that was not yet sealed in righteousness; thus the probationary state. If he were sealed in righteousness it would not have been possible to choose evil (compare Christ, the second and last man Adam - 1 Cor. 15:45, 47, - the righteous One (Isa. 53:11; 1 Cor. 1:30) - who fulfilled the covenant of works). Adam, the Federal Head of all mankind (Rom. 5:12-19), was inclined to good, but choose to sin. Thus, all mankind "in Adam" fell into sin (original sin).

    Eve was deceived. Satan modified God's original command; must not "touch." Once Eve touched the fruit and nothing happened, she ate of the fruit - But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. James 1:14-15. While Eve's sin is hideous, Adam's was even worse. Adam was not deceived - 1 Tim. 2:14. He willingly sinned against God. As Gill states,
    Now it is important to note here that Christ was ordained BEFORE the foundation of the world to die for the sins of the elect (1 Pet 1:19-20; cf. Acts 2:23-24; 4:27-28). So, God ordained the fall of man, but did not author it. (See Evil and God? and Does God Use Evil to Accomplish His Purposes? for how and why ...).

    Without going into even more detail, we end up with Augustine's 4 states of man:
    The Scriptures define freedom as basically free from sin. In Romans 6 Jesus teaches that only he can set his people free. Of course, the saint has been set free from sin, and will see the totality of this reality at glorification.

    Have good evening. Been nice being able to spend some time here this weekend. :wave:
     
  11. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    Thanks for stating the obvious, lol. I am still a little confused. I just can not wrap my head around the concept that God chooses only some of us. I will use the following scripture:

    1 Timothy 2 NASB
    1First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

    Here it says that God desires all men to be saved....so why would he only choose to save some and not all?
     
  12. DocNH

    DocNH Junior Member

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    Very few attempting to understand unlimited atonement from texts such a 1 Tim. 2:4 and a few others actually quote the entire text. Thank you for being honest with the text and attempting to understand it in its entire context.

    The Greek word for "all" is pas. The term can have several meanings in Scripture, including "all kinds of," etc. Other passages which use the word all in this same way, to mean "all kinds" or "all manner" – Matt. 4:23; 5:11; 10:1; Luke 2:1, 2; 11:42; Acts 2:5 (cf. 2:9-11); 10:11-14; Rom. 7:8; 1 Tim. 6:10, etc.

    Look at the context which you quoted. Paul, not denying the other texts in which he speaks of definite atonement, is here speaking of "all kinds of men" or "all classes of men," or "all types of men" – even kings and those in authority. Paul begins in 1 Tim 2:1, where he admonishes the church to pray for all kinds of persons - especially kings and those in authority. And so in the following verses he does not introduce a new thought. He simply follows up that admonition with various reasons, i.e., that God has willed the salvation of all types of persons and that Christ is also the Mediator of all kinds of persons.

    If God desires all men to be saved without exception, then why are any lost? It is impossible to give the four words - ransom, substitute, reconcile, propitiate - their Biblical meaning and still hold to universal atonement without also accepting universal salvation.

    Christ died specifically for the sins of the elect and actually accomplished, not just provided a mere possibility of their salvation (Isa. 53:11; Matt. 1:21; 20:28; 26:28; Luke 1:68; John 6:37-39; Acts 20:28; Rom. 5:8-11; Gal. 3:13 Heb 7:24-26; 9:11-12; cf. Luke 19:10, 1 Tim 1:15; Tit. 2:13-24, etc.). Since Christ literally accomplished the redemption of those that would believe this means all their sins have been atoned for! Since all their sins are atoned for – including the sin of unbelief – then the definition of "all" or "world" in such contexts cannot include "every man in the world without exception" as then every man in the world without exception would be saved (universalism).

    Christ gave himself a ransom for all kinds of men (1 Tim. 2:6) – both Jews and Gentiles (the two classes referred to in Scripture) – only "the many" (Matt. 20:28; Mark 10:45) in these groups are atoned for ….

    There are other verses that give some people difficulties such as:

    http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/42427
    http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/42382




     
  13. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    [SIZE=+1]Paul has interesting phraseology in
    Titus 1:1...

    "an apostle of Jesus Christ
    for the faith of God's elect
    and the knowledge of the
    truth" (NIV)

    See how the Apostle interconnects
    election, faith, and knowledge.

    We, today, prefer the reverse ...a
    disconnect between faith and knowledge.
    Like you can having Saving Faith without
    any factual knowing. A non-intellectual
    commitment.


    While I would be the last to say that
    Saving Faith is knowledge
    only, the inverse isn't true either !

    Doctrine is part of salvation.

    Belief has an object. A factual basis. And
    that's knowledge.

    In theology we refer to this as Saving
    Knowledge
    . A component of Saving Faith.
    Without which there isn't any Saving Faith !

    Faith minus knowledge being a mere trite
    feeling.
    [/SIZE]
     
  14. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    So basically your saying that "all" is a rather poor translation here?

    Well I was not trying to imply that the text says that God will save everyone. I took it to mean that he wants everyone to be saved(basically offer salvation to all). Why would Jesus need to die if God has elected who will be saved before the world even began? I suppose these individuals do not even have the ability to reject salvation? Why choose to offer or force salvation on some but not others?
     
  15. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    [SIZE=+1]All who hear the genuine Gospel call are genuinely
    called by that Gospel.

    But "few" can respond. Only the Elect. (Matthew 22:14)

    This is known in theology as the Effectual Calling. It's
    the same calling the reprobate hear. The Gospel doe
    not differ. What differs are those listening to it !

    Not "all men are called", though. Billions have died
    in the course of history never hearing Gospel of Grace.
    [/SIZE]
     
  16. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    Why does God elect some and not others?
     
  17. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    Why can only few respond?
     
  18. RisingSpirit

    RisingSpirit :-)

    +49
    Christian
    "Want" is the same as "willed". If He wants it, He will Will it. Nothing is on autopilot and running amok in it's own course without God's Wills.

    If God wants then it will happen. If God doesn't want then it won't happen,

    The real problem is that you're placing God over there where you want Him to be. You don't want Him to be in total control over you so you see Him over there (if at all) and not in you or you'll lose control over your own free will that you feel that totally belongs to you as if God gave you that much freedom to change God's plan He already laid down for the future.

    Try This: Go outside and watch the wind tumble the leaves around. Take a snapshot in your mind and tell yourself that the leaves tumbling really happened and God was there and made every action of every leaf being tumbled in the wind and even the God was there to control the wind to push the leaves around. See, You can't place God over there and say He isn't among every action of the winds and the leaves.

    Reality is real and already happened as if God is in the real present. Try this: God first and then the wind and the leaves. Not wind and the Leaves and then God willed it afterwards.

    Past, Present and future, all at once, is tricky to the unrenratate's mind. The reformed will tell you just take the Bible to say what it said and not question it. Free willers questions God's actions, every moment, and fight against it all the time and do harm to their own organs and get sick.
     
  19. DocNH

    DocNH Junior Member

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    Yea, I figured you were not a "universalist" however, if we interpret the text the way you suppose that is the necessary end of such an interpretation. As I bring out in another place:

    The text speaks of the fact that God desires "all types of persons" saved - or all types of sinners not matter their position in society.

    Jesus needed to die for his elect so they could be saved - without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

    The reprobate do not even truly desire God - see Rom. 8:7. They willfully continue to reject the Gospel. They are hostile to God, do not and cannot obey him - as they do not truly know him. See my post on baptism just before this one ...

    As far as offering the Gospel in a saving way to some and not to others see what I have written here: Will all mankind eventually be saved? (Isn't election unjust?)

    Sorry for the limited response, but I need to get back to work ... a lot of Bible Notes on Titus to write today ...

     
  20. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    Can we apply the same logic to Hitler's rise to power and the subsequent atrocities he committed?
     
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