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You put the word "Catholic" (capitol "C"????) into the text. God did not. I think there's a difference.
Well, if you need some, I have Tylenol, ibuprofen, naproxen, aspirin . . . that's pretty much it, though.you guys are making my head hurt.
Peace
Well, if you need some, I have Tylenol, ibuprofen, naproxen, aspirin . . . that's pretty much it, though.
As you can see, I tried everything for my arm . . . . . :o
I see what you mean. So if Stephen King we're building a house but writing about it in a book, then are we to expect that there would be a complete description of the house in that particular book?
Or would the description of the house be more like instructions for the pouring of the foundation?
Assuming, of course, that the pouring of the foundation took place before the writing of the book.
Where I don't follow you is if Stephen King were writing only one book about the house, but the house in fact was built more completely--I don't want to say "added onto" because that opens up a whole new can of worms---but if in fact the house had more bedrooms or, say, a three car garage instead of the original two car garage does that in fact force Stephen King to write another book?
There are a few problems with it, depending on how far you extend the analogy, but I definitely see your point.
I've went over this entire thread and haven't found one person who asserted that the Bible is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Why do you keep harping about this?I may personally have added the word "Catholic" but nonetheless, the answer is "church" NOT Bible. The verse is very clear that the pillar and foundation of TRUTH is the CHURCH. So which of thousands of churches has that FULL truth? Well, we can eliminate all that were founded after the reformation.
So, for those of you that think incorrectly that the "pillar and foundation of truth" is not the Chruch like the Bible states but rather the bible itself then I am sure YOU can explain which protestant interpretation is the correct one.
I may personally have added the word "Catholic"
the answer is "church" NOT Bible.
The verse is very clear that the pillar and foundation of TRUTH is the CHURCH. So which of thousands of churches has that FULL truth? Well, we can eliminate all that were founded after the reformation.
I've went over this entire thread and haven't found one person who asserted that the Bible is the "pillar and foundation of truth." Why do you keep harping about this?
An incredibly transparent strawman argument. Find me one quote where someone says these words exist in the passage.That's the point, my Catholic friend.
As usual, no one is disagreeing with what the verse actually says. God put those words here, and we both acknowledge Him as the Author and the text as infallible, apostolic, authoritative.
What we seem to be disagreeing about is whether there are other words in the text, words such as "Roman" "Catholic" "Denominaiton" "Infallible" "Pope" "Bishop of Rome" "Magisterium" "Institution." Protestants are of the opinion that those words do not appear in the text, Catholics insist that they do. That seems to be the disagreement.
You mean words like "worldwide family of christians" or "the truth as found in the bible"??This seems to be a very common issue in our discussions. We agree with what the text says. We disagree on these invisible words.
We say nothing about denominations. We refer to the church period. There was a church then and there is a church now. Your constant refrain of "Roman Catholic denomination" is simply your way of not directly facing the difficult questions which arise when Paul says "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth" and the wispy idea that Paul is referring to the 'family of believers' is shown to have so many holes.You are assuming that "church" is a denomination. There's nothing in the text that indicates that.
And if, as many will claim, that the "Church" really means the loose assembly of true believers, how does the fractured band of churches constitute truth? Seems like a pretty random pillar if you can't even rely on it to give you the final teaching on anything.
Exactly. If the church is a "worldwide family of believers" with so many various interpretations of scripture, then how in the world could that be considered the "pillar and foundation" when its "truth" is really a hodgepodge of beliefs---- the variety of which is only limited by the number of churches and individuals. If you don't like the "truth" taught in one church, you can go to the "truth" in another church then another and another and another. Finally, you get to the real "truth"---you stay at home and decide for yourself what the "truth" is---and tell everyone on christian message boards how silly the idea of a very real church is.
Sound silly and illogical? Tell God. He supposedly invented the idea.
1. I don't know how an institution can have faith, think, know truth or stand up for anything. Therefore, how an institution CAN be related to "truth" in any sense is beyond me. As far as I know, not inanimate object has a brain or a soul. So, "church" here must not mean such.
lol.... as an aside, a person who had a HUGE impact on my intellectual and spiritual life is of direct Armenian descent.... he is a brilliant and godly man!!! .... . good people....I think you would have had a more convincing argument saying, that the only way the word tradition would be applied is that Jerusalem was a Roman province (there we have the Roman tradition) and the Apostles ate and met at the Greek restaurants (there we have the Greek tradition) and the Armenians provided the live entertainment (there we have the Armenian tradition). Someone pass me the ouzo, OPAH!!!!!!!
Josiah said:1. I don't know how an institution can have faith, think, know truth or stand up for anything. Therefore, how an institution CAN be related to "truth" in any sense is beyond me. As far as I know, not inanimate object has a brain or a soul. So, "church" here must not mean such.
AN insitution is a community.
Here are some institutions.
1. The Lutherans.
2. The Baptist.
3. The Methodist.
4. The Anglican
5. The non-denominational
6. The fundamentalists.
Actually, what you've listed are faith communities or traditions. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod is a denomination. St. Luke's Lutheran Church is a congregation. California Lutheran University is a Luthern college. They are institutions, all within the historic tradition of Lutheranism.
They are part of the Lutheran community. They are all part of the Lutheran institution. The Lutheran institution is made of people. An institution is made up of people. With out the people there would be no institution. With out Lutherans there would be no Lutheran community and no Lutheran institution.Josiah said:Actually, what you've listed are faith communities or traditions. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod is a denomination. St. Luke's Lutheran Church is a congregation. California Lutheran University is a Luthern college. They are institutions, all within the historic tradition of Lutheranism
The most important part of a community(institution) is the individual. With out individuals there would be no institutions(community).
And because people have history so does a group(community, institution) of people have a common history. The Lutheran institution(community) has a common history and tradition.
Peace
Christians are not establishments, organizations or buildings. Christians are people, people who have been blessed with the gift of faith in Christ.
Because if you limit what can be considered 'truth' to what is written in the bible, you are effectively saying "the bible is the pillar and foundation of truth".
Now, you'll tell me that you are not limiting 'truth', you are limiting 'pillar and foundation', but it's the same darn thing. You're putting restrictions onto the bible which fit your opinions.
Buildings, groups...etc. None of which hold that truth. But where God dwells.
Therefore, what Christ established and Ignatius penned Catholic is where that truth resides.
It is the doctrines Christ set down on HIS men who carried the Gospels and teachings and 'feeding' the sheep.
The sheep [laity] are not without error..
The building is not alive to teach, scratch that off.
The Apostles have died leaving what they taught as truth to someone...BINGO.
What is left?
How else would we all be sitting here discussing the written words if living men did not carry them to our time?
Where Truth dwells, is the household of the Lord.
Therefore the first Church was the HOUSEHOLD of the Lord, and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against that foundation.
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