What is the Origin of Evil?

[Tomyris]

Hi!

Just stirring stuff up!

 

[Tomyris]

Hi!

Just stirring stuff up!

Hmmm.

Obama blames Bush.

The question is tougher than it looks. No takers? I'll take on either side. I'll fight you all. I'll fight you tooth and nail to the last tooth and the next to last nail (the polish is too good on that one). I'll fight you sitting down and standing up. I will fight you at sea and on land. In the skies and underground. But not in the man-cave. I stay OUT of there. He can vacuum it himself. I do not go into the man-cave. But anywhere else, I'll take on either side....

 

[iambren]

Lucifer. He took three created non-evil things(power, desire, and freewill) and manufactured evil.

 

[Tomyris]

Lucifer. He took three created non-evil things(power, desire, and freewill) and manufactured evil.

Ah, the Calvinist-Nazarene duel to the death begins!!! I will fight you one on one! I will fight you group to group! I will fight you on pogo sticks!

Ahem. Let's not get carried away....

Why those three? How did he get evil out of them? I can't even get a pie out of the oven, let alone THAT!!! What are your sources for this claim?

 

[iambren]

I am sorry to disappoint you but I am not up for debate. I was just perusing and I hope you find someone that will give you sparring answers.

I'm aware that the "God created evil" is a tough topic, I simply gave an answer top of my head. In this world you could take 3 beneficial ingredients and the sum of the 3 would be harmful. Thus was my analogy or answer that goes opening the doors to so much more. Yes, God could foreknow the event and stop it. So after exhaustive rabbit trails I think we will wind up at either 1) We don't know or 2) God created evil for His good pleasure.

Good luck.

 

[Tomyris]

I am not up for debate.

Hah! I disagree!!! I think you ARE up for debate!

And you did not disappoint me, either! So there! Hah!

I also did not say God was the author of evil. But I am wondering, O thou who art up for debate, why God says He brings evil upon people, if He is not the author?

Hmmmmm.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hi!

Just stirring stuff up!

If God is Sovereign..


By "first cause", theologians simply mean that God has predestinated all things that come to pass, including sin.



The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34


Second causes are the means by which these decrees are executed (i.e. man's will etc.) It is in second causes that responsability lies.



The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33

 

[Tomyris]

If God is Sovereign..


By "first cause", theologians simply mean that God has predestinated all things that come to pass, including sin.



The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34


Second causes are the means by which these decrees are executed (i.e. man's will etc.) It is in second causes that responsability lies.



The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33

Okaaaay...

How does that explain where evil came from?

 

[JustAsIam77]

Okaaaay...

How does that explain where evil came from?

This may be helpful..


Ephesians 2:2-9

King James Version (KJV)

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Satan, as permitted by God, was allowed to sow the seeds of sin from the Garden of Eden until this day, all to the ultimate Glory of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus, note verse 7 above.


The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VI [1].
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of
the Punishment thereof.

I. Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtlety and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.

 

[Tomyris]

This may be helpful..

Sorry to be difficult, but you still have not gone far enough back to answer the question.

 

[Rick Otto]

By "first cause", theologians simply mean that God has predestinated all things that come to pass, including sin.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
Second causes are the means by which these decrees are executed (i.e. man's will etc.) It is in second causes that responsability lies.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33
...................................................................................................................
Wow,... thats great. I love that. Just what I needed to sort out God being the creator of evil is not the same as God being an author of evil.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

 

[JustAsIam77]

By "first cause", theologians simply mean that God has predestinated all things that come to pass, including sin.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
Second causes are the means by which these decrees are executed (i.e. man's will etc.) It is in second causes that responsability lies.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33
...................................................................................................................
Wow,... thats great. I love that. Just what I needed to sort out God being the creator of evil is not the same as God being an author of evil.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

God bless.

 

[Tomyris]

By "first cause", theologians simply mean that God has predestinated all things that come to pass, including sin.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter V
Of Providence
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9]
8. Acts 2:23; see Isa. 14:24, 27
9. Gen 8:22; Jer. 31:35; Isa. 10:6,7; see Exod. 21:13 and Deut. 19:5; I Kings 22:28-34
Second causes are the means by which these decrees are executed (i.e. man's will etc.) It is in second causes that responsability lies.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]
1. Psa. 33:11: Eph. 1:11: Heb. 6:17
2. Psa. 5:4; James 1:13-14; I John 1:5; see Hab. 1:13
3. Acts 2:23; 4:27-28: Matt. 17:12; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33
...................................................................................................................
Wow,... thats great. I love that. Just what I needed to sort out God being the creator of evil is not the same as God being an author of evil.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

Thank you!!! I never noticed His claim that He created evil before!

Wow.

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank you!!! I never noticed His claim that He created evil before!

Wow.

It is earth shaking.
It forces us to think.
I was thinking He created it as a possibility first. How could we choose to do evil if it didn't exist?
Then you have "acts of God" as the insurance companies like to say, & most people want to minimize "evil" to those natural disasters & say it should've been translated "calamity" instead of "evil".
That just dilutes His sovereignity I think. I tend not to want to compromise His omnipotence & omniscience, maybe I go to far, but it seems axiomatic. Funny how I love that quality of firmness in God & mathematics, but I'm spiritualy allergic to organized religion. The more organized, the less I belong it seems. Oh well,...!

 

[JustAsIam77]

"Wow,... thats great. I love that. Just what I needed to sort out God being the creator of evil is not the same as God being an author of evil."
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Mr. Otto, I was speaking about sin, not evil, my mistake.

 

[Elderone]

God is not the author of evil.

The word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 means something different to us today. We think of Hitler and the acts he and other people perpertrated, mass murder, ethenic clensing, etc. as evil, but the evil of Isaiah 45:7 as Matthew Henry puts it, "I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment. I the Lord order, and direct, and do all these things".

John Gill puts it this way, ""evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God".

 

[JustAsIam77]

God is not the author of evil.

The word "evil" in Isaiah 45:7 means something different to us today. We think of Hitler and the acts he and other people perpertrated, mass murder, ethenic clensing, etc. as evil, but the evil of Isaiah 45:7 as Matthew Henry puts it, "I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment. I the Lord order, and direct, and do all these things".

John Gill puts it this way, ""evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God".

Hey brother, it's uncanny that you would post John Gills commentary about this, I was just reading it a short time ago. I have to differ with you in that Isaiah 45:7 is clear in what it says but I'm in total agreement about Gills commentary regarding sin.

 

[Tomyris]

Ok. Me confused. What are the two kinds of evil, and where did the evil that is NOT from God come from?

 

[JustAsIam77]

Mr. Otto was right in the scripture provided, Isaiah 45:7. I believe I am correct regarding the author of sin (Satan). Two distinct entities.

 

[Elderone]

I left off some important words in my earlier post. It should have read, "God is not the author of evil as we understand the word".

Satan is the author of sin.