What is the mysterious unpardonable sin?

[JimB]

I realise I didn't say much by explaining what I said but I'd have to say that what you said here is a very shallow way on how to view "rejection" and the present state that we're in. You have to take into account that we who are living here on earth, whether we believe in Christ or not, are already enjoying a certain form of grace. We are free to choose Christ or reject him without penalty.

However, once this life ends that all changes. If a person dies in a state of always having rejected Christ then there is no grace to save them. As for the "backslider", only God knows the heart and it's for him to determine whether that person truely had renounced Christ by the time of death. If that person did in fact renounce Christ, then just like the person who had always rejected Christ, there is no more grace that can be extended to that person.
Hebrews 6:4-6, It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentence, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So, the unpardonable sin doesn't start to take effect until at the point of death. In other words, if you reject Christ at age 10 during an alter call, nothing happens. If you again reject Christ at age 30 during a time a christian friend witnessed to you, nothing happens; but if you die still rejecting Christ then your soul is taken to a place in holding until it is time for trail, where you will recieve no pardon.

So, in order to define “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” we have redefine “rejection?” Where will all this redefining end?

IMO, you also have a “shallow” understanding … of Matthew 12.22-32 (see #17 above) but I have already explained that.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

​

 

[~GodsMouthpiece~]

And looking back I think I secretly harbored doubts about my unbelief.

~Jim

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one striking at the root.​

Kinda answered your own question didnt you?!..You doubted your doubts, and God knew you were hurt and didnt really mean your slanderousness towards Gods people or God....

 

[nephilimiyr]

When I was younger, in my early 20s, after I had backslidden from a true conversion experience a couple of year earlier, I did that. I deliberately made fun of Pentecostals (my mothers family was AOG): ridiculed Pentecostal preachers who came near hyperventilating when they preached; laughed at people’s claims of being healed or touched by the Spirit; mocked moves of the Holy Spirit; called sincere believers “holy rollers”; would say “boo” to Christians who used the term Holy “Ghost”; told my aunts and uncles that they were just the victims of voodoo superstition and there was no such thing as a “Holy Spirit”; and did a lot of other things that blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

And I was intentional about. I meant to ridicule. And looking back I think I secretly harbored doubts about my unbelief. I think there was a part of me that wanted to believe but intellectually I couldn’t … until god gave me the faith to do so.

Still, I was forgiven.

Go figure.

I truely believe that only God can accurately know the hearts of people, even more-so than the person themselves, no matter what the hard evidence is. Could it be that God didn't see a total rejection of him in you but perhaps you rejecting the people around you, and or enviroment?

This is/was the case with my wife. She was "saved" but after a long series of things she indicated to me that she no longer wanted anything to do with God or his people, the church, religion. The most interesting point I have come to find out is that all her annomosity, anger, conceit isn't really towards God but his people, his church. From all that you said it just looks like you were rejecting pentecostalism and the christians around you. All that I saw you saying there was that you mocked and ridiculed pentecostalism and the people. I didn't see you say anything about mocking, ridiculling, or rejecting God himself.

And there's an interesting point because like you, I had a very profound conversion experience myself as a teenager and afterwards rejected, so I thought. I mocked the church and it's people, made fun of them, but even held a great annomosity towards God as well for years. Yet I never stop believeing in him and deep down subconsciencely believed that maybe some day we could reconcile. And we did .

 

[nephilimiyr]

So, in order to define “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit” we have redefine “rejection?” Where will all this redefining end?

Sorry but I didn't redefine rejection at all. I think you need to reread what I said. I said the penalty of rejection, the unpardonable sin, doesn't start to take effect until after death when there is no more grace. I really think you need to reread what I said, or at least be kind enough to point out exactly what I said that shows that I am redefining the word. If you can do so, fine, lets talk about it, but if you're not able to do so you shouldn't be making accusations. I call these drive by accusations, accuse the person and then boogie......

IMO, you also have a “shallow” understanding … of Matthew 12.22-32 (see #17 above) but I have already explained that.

I haven't read every post of yours . I explained to you how I believe you are thinking shallow about rejection, and I honestly think you showed that in your original response to me, but perhaps you could be kind enough to point out what I said that makes you believe I have a shallow understanding of Mat. 12:22-32?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Kinda answered your own question didnt you?!..You doubted your doubts, and God knew you were hurt and didnt really mean your slanderousness towards Gods people or God....

This is a good thing to say and is true for alot of people IMO, but Jim never indicated that he slandered God, just the christians around him, and I don't view the two as being the same. He indicated that he didn't believe in any such thing as the Holy Spirit but that is very telling. What I find incredulous is that he himself believes that doing all these things are in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I'm sorry but they are not and what I know of Jim I would've thought he'd understand that.

Just this last week we've had a lady make a thread in this forum saying how she was rejecting her faith icon and no longer going to come here and discuss things as she used to. I couldn't help but get the sense that underlining all that she said there was alot of annomosity towards some or all of the christians here and what she really wanted to do was stick it to us. Maybe she felt wronged or hurt by some of us in some way and seeking to give it back. After all, if you reject christians you are also rejecting God? I don't think so. She may even believe so but it doesn't matter, all that matters is what God knows is in her heart, and if He is there, it doesn't matter what she may say.

 

[JimB]

Kinda answered your own question didnt you?!..You doubted your doubts, and God knew you were hurt and didnt really mean your slanderousness towards Gods people or God....

Nope. Remember, I was there and you weren’t. Factoid: I honestly did not believe there was a God, Son of God, or Holy Spirit at one phase of my life. I eventually conceded there must be a God, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit I doubted, even willfully renounced. But you always fear you might be wrong. That is hardly faith. As they say, there are no atheists in foxholes.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

​

 

[JimB]

Sorry but I didn't redefine rejection at all. I think you need to reread what I said. I said the penalty of rejection, the unpardonable sin, doesn't start to take effect until after death when there is no more grace. I really think you need to reread what I said, or at least be kind enough to point out exactly what I said that shows that I am redefining the word. If you can do so, fine, lets talk about it, but if you're not able to do so you shouldn't be making accusations. I call these drive by accusations, accuse the person and then boogie......



I haven't read every post of yours . I explained to you how I believe you are thinking shallow about rejection, and I honestly think you showed that in your original response to me, but perhaps you could be kind enough to point out what I said that makes you believe I have a shallow understanding of Mat. 12:22-32?

At the risk of sounding rude, I would also have to say that I believe you have a shallow understanding of forgiveness, especially in its universal scope since Christ died for our sins--indeed, "the sins of the whole world--paying the full atonement for them. Either He died for all sin (including that one some call unforgivable) or He did not. I believe He did. He gave himself a ransom for ALL (1 Tim. 2.5-6).

Matt. 12 was spoken on the other side of the cross, to religious leaders still under law.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

 

[Norbert L]

...But you always fear you might be wrong. That is hardly faith. As they say, there are no atheists in foxholes.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

Well what some may say and what is can be two different things. My father was a WW2 vet and when the bullets and bombs were dropping everywhere around him, he actually confessed it reaffirmed his atheism. Both during and after the events where you see your friends body parts all around you.

 

[JimB]

Well what some may say and what is can be two different things. My father was a WW2 vet and when the bullets and bombs were dropping everywhere around him, he actually confessed it reaffirmed his atheism. Both during and after the events where you see your friends body parts all around you.

No proverb fits everyone.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

​

 

[Norbert L]

No proverb fits everyone.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

There's the book of Proverbs and scripture, then there's teachings from them. Do you know which scriptures people use to back up the idea there are no atheists in foxholes?

 

[nephilimiyr]

At the risk of sounding rude, I would also have to say that I believe you have a shallow understanding of forgiveness, especially in its universal scope since Christ died for our sins--indeed, "the sins of the whole world--paying the full atonement for them. Either He died for all sin (including that one some call unforgivable) or He did not. I believe He did. He gave himself a ransom for ALL (1 Tim. 2.5-6).

Matt. 12 was spoken on the other side of the cross, to religious leaders still under law.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

Well I didn't really talk about how God forgives, seeing that wasn't the topic, so to level a charge on me like that isn't exactly rude but more of something else.

Yes I agree Jesus died for all sins, He took care of all of that on the cross, once and for all. People wont go to hell for what they do but for what they believe, the answer is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To not believe in Jesus Christ means you wont recieve a pardon from your sins. Are you coming from a universalist belief that it doesn't matter whether you believe or don't believe in Jesus Christ, that that doesn't matter, we all will be in heaven no matter what?

 

[JimB]

Well I didn't really talk about how God forgives, seeing that wasn't the topic, so to level a charge on me like that isn't exactly rude but more of something else.

Yes I agree Jesus died for all sins, He took care of all of that on the cross, once and for all. People wont go to hell for what they do but for what they believe, the answer is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. To not believe in Jesus Christ means you wont recieve a pardon from your sins. Are you coming from a universalist belief that it doesn't matter whether you believe or don't believe in Jesus Christ, that that doesn't matter, we all will be in heaven no matter what?

Well, actually, I thought this thread was all about forgiveness.

As for your second paragraph: no, I am not a universalist. I realize that there are conditions to being forgiven. Like, you have to want to be forgiven. It’s a matter of freewill. If you want to be forgiven, even if people say you have committed and unforgivable sin, you will be forgiven. That is what the Atonement insures.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

​

 

[WileyCoyote]

Before I returned to Christ after a period of backsliding for about four years, I attributed the works of the Holy Spirit first to the devil and later, as I fell deeper into unbelief and no longer believed in a supreme being, to superstition (seem my previous post).

Am I not forgiven?

~Jim

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one striking at the root.​

I believe you are. You repented and are operating in the gifts of the Spirit. Apparantly, you were going through a hard time and God knew you would be back and didn't hold your words against you.

The Pharisees who commited this sin, however, never repented of it and were fully intending to oppose the Holy Spirit by what they said. They did what they did out of hatred for Jesus and the Holy Spirit. So their situation was different than yours.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well, actually, I thought this thread was all about forgiveness.

LOL, well, yeah it is but I didn't embark on explaining all that that is about, just rejection.

As for your second paragraph: no, I am not a universalist. I realize that there are conditions to being forgiven. Like, you have to want to be forgiven. It’s a matter of freewill. If you want to be forgiven, even if people say you have committed and unforgivable sin, you will be forgiven. That is what the Atonement insures.

Ok, I think I better set something straight here about what I believe, or am not all that clear on. First of all we know that the term "the unpardonable sin" is a theological term to discribe what the blasphemy of the Spirit is. I believe that is rejection of the Holy Spirit and or Christ but I sometimes question whether that is a real sin or if it's just a bad decision on our part.

Either way, the only time a person after death has to suffer punishment, and or incarceration, is when they have died after never having accepted Christ. If their rejection of Christ would be forgiven by God I would think that the bad decision to reject him would be forgiven and or otherwise overlooked as well, but we both believe that it isn't.

So what is sin? I would say that sin is anything you do or feel in your heart that falls short of the glory of God. We both believe that Jesus paid the price for any of these sins over 2,000 years ago, correct? And now seeing that rejection of Christ is the only thing that will land you in hell, I have to conclude that it is the only thing God will not forgive or over look.

As for Matthew 12, yes Jesus was talking to the pharisees about them atributing the works of the Spirit to something else but I believe it is important to keep in mind what Jesus said and put it into the context in the day He was speaking this, in other words, they were on the other side of the cross where the sin debt was not paid yet by his work on the cross. So yes, atributing the works of the Spirit to something other than the Holy Spirit can be pardoned like any other sin.

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.nuggets.esmartdesign.com/difficultpassages.html

That Jesus was working mighty miracles among the people of His day was undeniable. The lame walked, the dumb spoke, the deaf heard, the dead arose and the demon-possessed were set free.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The religious scribes and Pharisees who were against Jesus could not ignore or deny the miracles performed by Him, especially those that were done right before their eyes and in front a large crowd of witnesses. So they had two choices: To attribute Jesus' miraculous powers to the Spirit of God, or to attribute His powers to a demonic spirit. Of course, they did the second.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus told the people that He cast out demons by the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28). But the scribes said to the people, "He has Beelzebub. By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons." The Pharisees said the same thing: "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In other words, they credited the wonderful and gracious works of God that were setting oppressed folks free to the most evil being -- Beelzebub, the prince of demons. They rejected the obvious truth before them and perversely twisted it to influence the crowds. By doing this, they were also implying that Jesus was a sorcerer in league with Satan.

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]That was how hardened and firmly set their hearts were against accepting Jesus as the Messiah. They kept rejecting the Christ despite all the proof given by the Holy Spirit. Their blaspheming against the Holy Spirit was equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance was possible. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the unpardonable or unforgivable sin -- permanently rejecting all attempts of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Christ. Pre-cross, the Holy Spirit's role was to empower Jesus to perform all sorts of miracles (Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38), thereby proving that He is the Messiah. Post-cross, the Holy Spirit's role is to confirm the gospel with signs and wonders (Acts 14:3. Romans 15:18-20), as well as to convict the world of sin (John 16:8-9). What sin is that? It is the sin of all sins -- unbelief in the Christ, which only non-believers can be convicted of. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The unpardonable sin is not this idea of speaking generally against the Holy Spirit. For example, some Christians believe that they are on their way to hell because they had a bad thought towards the Holy Spirit or because they had said some unkind words to Him. Then, there are some Charismatic Christians who say that traditional Christians who attribute speaking in tongues, holy laughter or miraculous healings to demons have committed the unpardonable sin. They say that such Christians have spoken against the Holy Spirit and are thus hell-bound. All that is simply not true and it just shows a lack of understanding of what blaspheming against the Holy Spirit really is. Those who believe such nonsense should read the verses again in context.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
When the scribes and Pharisees spoke against the Holy Spirit, it was because their hearts were already firmly set against accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Their sin was the permanent rejection of Christ as their Saviour. But when traditional Christians speak unknowingly and unintentionally against the Holy Spirit by attributing tongues, holy laughter and other supernatural manifestations to demons, it simply shows their ignorance of Scripture and even their fear of the supernatural.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
They simply do not believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today. Most of them are just naive and do not know any better. Therefore, they attribute supernatural manifestations in the church to trickery, psychology, science or demons. But they are certainly not rejecting Jesus as their Saviour. How can they be when they are already Christians? And they are certainly not out to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Why would any Christian want to speak against the Spirit of God?[/FONT]

 

[WileyCoyote]

I see your point, but. . .


. . .the passage doesn't actually say that rejecting Christ as Messiah is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It wasn't rejection of Christ that caused Jesus to accuse them of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, it was actual words spoken against the Holy Spirit Himself. Jesus never said "anyone who rejects that I am the Messiah shall never be forgiven." He says that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, you will not be forgiven. The Pharisees were rejecting Jesus as Messiah long before Jesus leveled that accusation at them. It wasn't until they attributed the works of the Holy Spirit Himself to Satan that Jesus accuses them of commiting this unforgivable sin.

But those are my thoughts. I admit that I could be wrong. Can you elaborate a bit further?

 

[JimB]

Once saved, always saved -- difficult passages explained

That Jesus was working mighty miracles among the people of His day was undeniable. The lame walked, the dumb spoke, the deaf heard, the dead arose and the demon-possessed were set free.

The religious scribes and Pharisees who were against Jesus could not ignore or deny the miracles performed by Him, especially those that were done right before their eyes and in front a large crowd of witnesses. So they had two choices: To attribute Jesus' miraculous powers to the Spirit of God, or to attribute His powers to a demonic spirit. Of course, they did the second.

Jesus told the people that He cast out demons by the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28). But the scribes said to the people, "He has Beelzebub. By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons." The Pharisees said the same thing: "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."

In other words, they credited the wonderful and gracious works of God that were setting oppressed folks free to the most evil being -- Beelzebub, the prince of demons. They rejected the obvious truth before them and perversely twisted it to influence the crowds. By doing this, they were also implying that Jesus was a sorcerer in league with Satan.

That was how hardened and firmly set their hearts were against accepting Jesus as the Messiah. They kept rejecting the Christ despite all the proof given by the Holy Spirit. Their blaspheming against the Holy Spirit was equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance was possible.

This is the unpardonable or unforgivable sin -- permanently rejecting all attempts of the Holy Spirit to draw one to Christ. Pre-cross, the Holy Spirit's role was to empower Jesus to perform all sorts of miracles (Luke 4:18, Acts 10:38), thereby proving that He is the Messiah. Post-cross, the Holy Spirit's role is to confirm the gospel with signs and wonders (Acts 14:3. Romans 15:18-20), as well as to convict the world of sin (John 16:8-9). What sin is that? It is the sin of all sins -- unbelief in the Christ, which only non-believers can be convicted of.

The unpardonable sin is not this idea of speaking generally against the Holy Spirit. For example, some Christians believe that they are on their way to hell because they had a bad thought towards the Holy Spirit or because they had said some unkind words to Him. Then, there are some Charismatic Christians who say that traditional Christians who attribute speaking in tongues, holy laughter or miraculous healings to demons have committed the unpardonable sin. They say that such Christians have spoken against the Holy Spirit and are thus hell-bound. All that is simply not true and it just shows a lack of understanding of what blaspheming against the Holy Spirit really is. Those who believe such nonsense should read the verses again in context.

When the scribes and Pharisees spoke against the Holy Spirit, it was because their hearts were already firmly set against accepting Jesus as the Messiah. Their sin was the permanent rejection of Christ as their Saviour. But when traditional Christians speak unknowingly and unintentionally against the Holy Spirit by attributing tongues, holy laughter and other supernatural manifestations to demons, it simply shows their ignorance of Scripture and even their fear of the supernatural.

They simply do not believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still for today. Most of them are just naive and do not know any better. Therefore, they attribute supernatural manifestations in the church to trickery, psychology, science or demons. But they are certainly not rejecting Jesus as their Saviour. How can they be when they are already Christians? And they are certainly not out to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. Why would any Christian want to speak against the Spirit of God?

The problem I see with this is that in your scenario, we harden our own hearts through frequent sins to the place we cannot accept forgiveness. What Jesus said is that God will not forgive “whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks [a word, just one!] against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt.12.32). “Will not be forgiven” is different than “cannot be forgiven.”The former involves the “will”—God’s will—the latter is a human degenerative state of being.

The unforgivable sin would then be a sin (sing.) that God refused to forgive, not one(s) we chose. And it would be a “sin” (singular), not a culmination of “sins” (plural).

One sin and buh-bye forever!!

If there is such a sin (and IMO there isn't), we better know what it is and not just make these blind stabs in the dark.

~Jim

It isn’t what a man doesn’t know that hurts him as much as what he knows that just ain’t so.​

 

[WileyCoyote]

Ah, ok. Clicked on the link and found out that this is an eternal security proponent explaining away scriptures to support his unbiblical doctrine that a Christian will remain saved forever no matter what. Instead of the title "Difficult passages explained", he should have put "Difficult passages explained away". How far some people will go to support a particular pet doctrine.

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

The eternal security proponent is me. Now I recall why I left this forum.

 

[KleinerApfel]

The eternal security proponent is me. Now I recall why I left this forum.

You're not alone!