What is the Messianic take on Islam?

[ShirChadash]

*shudder*!

 

[ILY]

Shalom Defens0rFidei

Here's a subject I know a little about.

DefensOrfidei, See the thread I posted about the video of a former Palestinian terrorist, now Chrsitian Zionist. Brother Walid explains what he and other were taught and are still being taught today.

Also read Psalm 83, Ezekiel 38, 39.I'll give you more links if you need them.

Here's one complementary
http://abrahamic-faith.com/
A fantastic brother runs this site.Walid also.

Answering-islam.org
Ok that's two.You can also visit a site I coadmin. with a Arab Christian.
www.exmuslim.com/

Just so you know, I was never a Muslim, nor am I Arabic, but I feel I was lead after prayer to witness to Muslims about Yeshua, and very soon after the prayer I met the Arab/Iraqi Christian I co-admin. the site with.

As P4I said, it is very dangerous for a Muslim living in a Muslim majority country to convert.I have received pm's of horrible stories of torture psychological, as well as physical,Families and loved ones ripped apart, and taken from those that have chosen to follow Y'shua.It is very important that we reach out to all of Abraham's children.

Many are questioning, and many have come out of the dark, and into the light of Messiah.Do you know what happens in Saudi Arabia to one even caught with a Bible, or suspected of being a Christian? They are publicly decapitated!!
Sorry for being blunt, but it is a serious matter, and more of a threat than many realize.
Just think about this, and any opinions are appreciated,
(in Ezekiel 38:16 & 17)
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?
I am not going to be dogmatic on this, but when was "Gog" mentioned prior to Ezekiel?Since it says he was spoken to come against HIS people,
I submit, it **could** be another title for anti-Messiah.Look also at the nations mentioned with this Gog.Who else is prohpesied to come against HIS people in "old time" by HIS servants, "the prophets of Israel?

Enough said, I rambled a bit much.If you need some more info. pm or ask here and I'll give you more.

Shalom v shalom
ILY<><

 

[ILY]

Shalom all,
I thought I should clarify something.

I am not Messianic, and didn't mean to sound like I was answering from their respective viewpoint, in case it came across that way.

I am however; listening and learning here.I am a Protestant, but I do seek to learn and grow, and this is a good place for a different perspective

Shalom v shalom
ILY

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Are you saying that you see Mary and the "Saints" as simply interceding for you as your human friends might intercede for you when you ask for prayer?

Yes.

Would you say that those who have died and are in Heaven according to the Catholic Church have more influence in their intercession on your behalf than, say, godly friends/parents/family here on earth who pray for you?

Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven. Those in Heaven have been completely purified, and the Bible says the prayers of the righteous are powerful. So, yes.

Does Mary have no more "pull" when she "intercedes" for you than say, I would, if I were to intercede for you?

Are you the mother of God? Are you sinless? Are you full of grace?

And do the prayers of any/all of the other "Saints" in Heaven have equal "weight"/influence/"pull" as Mary's direct intercession would?

She is greater than all Saints. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Her Son has a special affection for her and listens to her, ie the Wedding at Cana.

 

[Hix]

The mother of G-d?? oy vey, Ive heard some pagan ideas being spun around the church in my time but this one takes the bagel. How on earth can she be the mother of G-d who is a spirit and is infinite? You make it sound like shes even more holy than G-d himself is. Why dont we all forget about praying to G-d and just pray to Mary then, Im sure thats exactly what G-d wanted when he chose a 12 year old human (aka full of sin) girl to be the mother of the moshiach.

We do NOT need any intercessors to G-d, the Tanach teaches that if we call to him he will answer. Why did Yeshua say "who is my mother? All those who worship G-d, they are my brothers and mothers".

Il say it again, praying to anyone other than G-d is a pagan practice, but then again in the church thats only par for the cource.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

The mother of G-d?? oy vey, Ive heard some pagan ideas being spun around the church in my time but this one takes the bagel. How on earth can she be the mother of G-d who is a spirit and is infinite? You make it sound like shes even more holy than G-d himself is. Why dont we all forget about praying to G-d and just pray to Mary then, Im sure thats exactly what G-d wanted when he chose a 12 year old human (aka full of sin) girl to be the mother of the moshiach.

We do NOT need any intercessors to G-d, the Tanach teaches that if we call to him he will answer. Why did Yeshua say "who is my mother? All those who worship G-d, they are my brothers and mothers".

Il say it again, praying to anyone other than G-d is a pagan practice, but then again in the church thats only par for the cource.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Was Jesus God? Yes. Was Mary His mother? Yes. Thus, Mary is logically the Mother of God.

Does this mean Mary is divine? Of course not.

Your objections are like those of the Protestants and have been refuted countless times. If you are up to it, how about we take this to the Formal Debates where I can educate you within forum rules. We aren't supposed to debate in this forum.

You can call my Church pagan all you want, but my Church is the Church that God built on St Peter...you know, Cephas? Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against it and people would insult us just like they insulted Him. So keep the insults coming, they just prove that I belong to His true house.

 

[Hix]

Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary? Where in the Bible does it tell us she makes intercession for us? Where in the Bible does it say we NEED someone to make intercession for us? Surely you cant defiently accept these non-biblical beliefs just because you get labelled the "church" so you must be right. I hear protestants call you guys the anti-christs. Then again I have just as many arguements againts protestants as catholics.

If it is isnt consistant with the Bible it is pagan theology, and goodness knows the church in its beginings (constantine etc) has already been proven to have major pagan influences. Its almost as if youve divorced yourself from the word of G-d to allow for fancifull and unbiblical notions such as prayer to anyone other than G-d himself, which is blatantly against the Halacha.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary? Where in the Bible does it tell us she makes intercession for us? Where in the Bible does it say we NEED someone to make intercession for us? Surely you cant defiently accept these non-biblical beliefs just because you get labelled the "church" so you must be right. I hear protestants call you guys the anti-christs. Then again I have just as many arguements againts protestants as catholics.

If it is isnt consistant with the Bible it is pagan theology, and goodness knows the church in its beginings (constantine etc) has already been proven to have major pagan influences. Its almost as if youve divorced yourself from the word of G-d to allow for fancifull and unbiblical notions such as prayer to anyone other than G-d himself, which is blatantly against the Halacha.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Intercession of the Saints, the Communion of Saints, is very much Biblical.

If you want to debate it, lets go to the Formal Debates and we can hash it all out there.

Otherwise, you would do well not to insult a brother in Christ and accuse us of being pagans. The Holy Spirit would not allow any pagan influences to corrupt the Church, which is His bride.

 

[Hix]

“Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord, “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.” Jeremiah 3:14

Who is HaShem's bride?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

“Return, O backsliding children,” says the Lord, “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.” Jeremiah 3:14

Who is HaShem's bride?

Shall I bring out the prophecies of Israel's adultery to counter your verse? Or should we stop this moronic bickering in your congregational forum?

 

[Henaynei]

Allow me to ask nicely.....

Please take this to the debate Forum......

 

[Hix]

Hen, I see nothing within the rules that say that I as a messianic am not allowed to express my opinions on these matters in the messianic forum. All I was doing is stating my opinion, I apologise if I came across rude.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Hen, I see nothing within the rules that say that I as a messianic am not allowed to express my opinions on these matters in the messianic forum. All I was doing is stating my opinion, I apologise if I came across rude.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Its not Hen you should be apologizing to...its the Catholics on this forum which you call "pagan" that you have insulted. We are your brothers and sisters in Christ, which Jesus says you must not ever call "fool" or be tempting Hell fire.

Again, if you want to "express your opinion" and argue with me about how we are pagans then lets go to the formal debates section and leave this congregational forum alone...unless you want to talk about the actual TOPIC of this thread, which is Islam?

 

[Hix]

1. I was apologising to you, once again, sorry if I came across rude.
2. What I expressed was a messianic opinion, which is permitted here in the messianic forum
3. Id rather not formally debate this as no matter what I say it will be like water off a ducks back.

Anyway lets see this thread get back onto topic, eh? Anyone here read the Koran? I heard its got a phraze in it to the effect of "On Saturday you will kill the Jews and on Sunday the Christians" or some such.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[ShirChadash]

Are you the mother of God? Are you sinless? Are you full of grace?

She is greater than all Saints. She is the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Her Son has a special affection for her and listens to her, ie the Wedding at Cana.

There ya go. And that's ^ exactly what makes the fundamental difference between praying to Mary and the "Saints" to intercede for you, and asking your human friends to pray for you. If the people are not alike, in your eyes, and not seen (by you) in the same way, then the action you do towards them (and the hoped-for result) is not alike. ^THAT is what makes the action idolatrous: an understanding of these to whom you are "praying" which is not Biblical. You cannot claim that praying to Mary and saints is the exact same thing as asking your friends on earth to pray for you -- as you yourself have admitted that the individuals AND the desired effect of the intercessions are entirely different. Thus the actions aren't the same any further than the fact that you are ASKING. From there on out, it's a whole different thing, and I suspect you know so.

 

[ShirChadash]

Whoops: my apologies if I shouldn't have posted ^that reply on this thread... I didn't see the rest of the thread (and still haven't seen most posts) until I just noticed the recent posts by Henaynei/Hix on this page...

 

[iitb]

Not only is this thread horribly off topic, but it has become an itnterdenominational debate, which isn't allowed in this forum. Therefore, this thread is now closed.