What is the meaning of this?!

[johnd]

People love to categorize and name things. In my humble estimation it comes from the initial mission of Adam (who named the animals etc.). People also love to identify with a particular category. I believe this has something to do with the Lord confusing the languages at Babel when he divided humanity in to clumps of families that developed into the cultures of the world.



God’s plan continues. The division of humanity remains despite the enemy’s best efforts to reunite Babel. This is referring to the physical aspect of humanity of course. Spiritually God divides humanity as well (be ye holy for I am holy, {that is, sanctified / set apart}). This is predicated on the distinction between belief being set apart from unbelief.



And the spiritual transcends the physical: faith in God is trans-cultural. Anyone from any background can be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.



The Church / Body of Christ is intended to be one / united. Unfortunately, we bring into the faith the traits that divide us physically and the traits that we all have in pigeonholing everything (which leads to theological differences).



The solution is to allow the Bible as interpreted by the Holy Spirit speak and be the final word.



2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.



There are many things in the past I interpreted differently, but I curved my beliefs to the revelation word of God the Bible. Never mind this is what “I thought.” Never mind this is “how we’ve always done it.” Never mind this is “how so-n-so interpreted the passage.” It only matters what it says in the word of God and how it is interpreted by God the Holy Spirit.



That background being established, I would like to discuss the meaning of:



Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



…namely who / what is the Israel of God?

 

[pimorton]

I think it would be helpful to back up to verse 14 to understand the rule to which Paul is referring: 14) May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world was crucified to me, and I to the world. 15) Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

The Israel of God is not that nation of people who had been circumcised outwardly, but rather those who have been circumcised inwardly, namely all believers.

 

[Remy12]

The Isreal of God is the Church, as described in the Bible.

 

[johnd]

I agree with you both.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is not replacement theology.

Replacement theology says that the Church replaces Israel. True theology says the Israel of God is what the Jews were intended to become and the Gentiles were grafted into (Romans 11:16-26).

So there is a schism (physical Israel and Spiritual Israel) as surely as there was a divided kingdom (Northern and Southern), and Ezekiel 37:15-28 is in concert with Romans 11:26 that the two will one day be joined.

But until then,

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise {defines Jew / Judah see Genesis 29:35} is not of men, but of God.

The latter could read "who is a Jew not of men but of God."

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

God still has a big place in his heart for physical Israel (even in their unbelief). Make no mistake about that. And we are to love and bless them as the Old Covenant said:

Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

The land covenants were unconditional and therefore remain in effect with physical Israel.

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Remember, Jesus wept in Luke 19:41-44 he did not jeer. He did not wag his finger and say "I told you so." God loves the Jewish people. He fights for them to this day (as any military strategist who knows about the details of the 6 day war in 1967 will attest).

They are the heirs of the Abramic covenants (land) we are the heirs of the Abrahamic covenants (eternity)... which they were intended to have first but the evil poison (anti-Jesus teaching) infested Judaism long before he arrived on the scene. This is what he referred to as tares in the wheat field and leaven in the fellowship offering dough (Matthew 13).

So what does all this mean?

One of the reasons the Church has been dwindling in its seasoning effect on the world, and why it has so many factions is because it suffers from an identity crisis (namely amnesia).

We are the Israel of God.

 

[johnd]

The same as the symbol of Israel.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

 

[johnd]

Revelation 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (KJV)

|12| Then I turned to see the kol which was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw sheva menorot zahav (seven golden menorahs). [ZECHARYAH 4:2; SHEMOT 25:31-40] *

|13| And in the midst of the menorot stood One like the Ben HaAdam [DANIEL 7:13-14; YECHEZKEL 1:26], having been clothed in a Beketch (long coat) reaching to the feet and having been wrapped around at the chest with a golden gartel. [DANIEL 7:13; YECHEZKEL 1:26; 9:2,11 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM; DANIEL 10:5,16; YESHAYAH 6:1] *

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (KJV)

|20| The raz (mystery, sod) of the shevat hakokhavim (seven stars) which you saw in the yad yamin (right hand) of me and the sheva golden menorot: the shevat hakokhavim are the malachim (angels) of the Kehillot (Congregations) and the sheva menorot are the sheva Kehillot. *

* The Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha (New Testament)

 

[Bob Moore]

pimorton is right when he says, "The Israel of God is not that nation of people who had been circumcised outwardly, but rather those who have been circumcised inwardly, namely all believers".

I think it is important to mention that membership in a church, or mere intellectual assent to a set of doctrines does not make one a believer. As my signature points out, not all are Israel who are of Israel, and not all are of Christ who are called Christians.

 

[johnd]

 

[muffler dragon]

To respond or not to respond, that is the question.

I will simply state that I am in disagreement with the assumptions and conclusions made in this thread.

m.d.

 

[johnd]

To respond or not to respond, that is the question.

I will simply state that I am in disagreement with the assumptions and conclusions made in this thread.

m.d.

Muff, you are entitled to your oppinion. But that's all you offered. Those whom you are in disagreement with have cited scripture after scripture. These are not assumptions nor eisegetic conclusion but exegetic expositions of holy writ.

Respectfully,

 

[johnd]

In fact,

Jesus said:

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Since the Incarnation, the Word has become the Son. (John 1:1, 14) His new name in Hebrew means "He is Prince of God" Yish Sarar Elohim (abreviated to Yishra'el or Yisra'el). In English it is spelled Israel.

The Messiah's new name is Israel (the Ultimate Prince of God). And we bear the name of the Messiah as well as Yerushalayim Nu (New Jerusalem, idicating we are not the ten virgins but the bride in the parable of the 10 virgins) and of benai YHVH (the tetragrammaton) sons of God.

 

[johnd]

Rejoice!

 

[muffler dragon]

The reason I simply put that I disagree with the proposed ideas in this thread is because there are simply too many to discuss. It's a lot easier to discuss it point by point. Take for instance, the OP. If were to discuss whether the Church is Israel, then I would discuss that and that alone; however, since the initial post there have been a myriad of other thoughts added to that consideration.

If you let me know that your intention is to stick with just a discussion of the Church being Israel, then I will get involved in discussing that from a dissenting point of view. Otherwise, there is simply too much.

m.d.

 

[CharlesYTK]

The Isreal of God is the Church, as described in the Bible.

This is sort of true. But the church of the 1st and 2nd centuries is not the church in existance today. For two hundred years the core of the faith was Apostolic Judaism. These people were Torah observenat Jews who practiced Judaism, with the knowledge that Yeshua was the Jewish Messiah promised throughout the Jewish scriptures.

Your theology which is founded on the Church fathers of the 3rd century deletes Israel, and replaces it with your own Gentile version of "Church" that is abscentof Gods law, teaching, the Jewish Messiah is replaced with the almost Gentile Jesus, the appointed festivals of God, the eternal covenants of God and everything else that the first followers believed is swept away..

 

[verismo]

...
The solution is to allow the Bible as interpreted by the Holy Spirit speak and be the final word.
...
There are many things in the past I interpreted differently, but I curved my beliefs to the revelation word of God the Bible. Never mind this is what “I thought.” Never mind this is “how we’ve always done it.” Never mind this is “how so-n-so interpreted the passage.” It only matters what it says in the word of God and how it is interpreted by God the Holy Spirit.

So, how do you do this? How do you learn what the Holy Spirit's interpretation is?

 

[CharlesYTK]

So, how do you do this? How do you learn what the Holy Spirit's interpretation is?

We are told from the very beginning how to test a word and a prophet. If anything is taught that is contrary to Torah or destroys Torah that word and teacher are false and must be rejected.

Do you realize that everything that Yeshua did and said was in obedience to Torah. If ths were not so, then he was not Messiah at all. He did some things tht were contrary to the customs and traditions of the jews, yes, like eating with unwashed hands, however this is not a Torah command, but a Jewish tradition that was added as a hedge to the law. He healed on the Sabbath, but did not break the Sabbath. Because to relieve sufering is a higher mitvah than resting. He plucked grain to eat but did not violate Torah, Because in Torah it is permited for the poor to stand in a field and eat grain by rubbing it between their hands. What you can not do is harvest, collect into baskets for taking to market or storing up. If Yeshua broke a commandment, then he was not a sinless sacrifice and we are all faced with no salvation through him.

Torah is the foundation on which all the scriptures rest. It is like the foundation of a building. Take it away and the building collapses. Without Torah, there is no Messiah, no saving grace, no holiness of God. Without Torah the New testament becomes hear say, like a first century copy of the national enquirer. "Man feeds 5000 with only a couple fish" "Man raises friend from the dead after 4 days!" "Man calms storm with a word and walks on water." All of it is to fantastic to believe, unless you have met the God of Torah who has established his miraculas power in an open display on many occassions. Then what Yeshua did becomes credible and there is Joy in the world because of it.

 

[verismo]

Thank you for your comments.

I was however asking johnd where he finds the Holy Spirit's interpretation of the Bible. In his own self? Is the Holy Spirit teaching him the Truth of the Scriptures personally? In the teaching of his church? How is it he is certain that he is not relying on his own understanding?

 

[Ainesis]

I think it is important to mention that membership in a church, or mere intellectual assent to a set of doctrines does not make one a believer. As my signature points out, not all are Israel who are of Israel, and not all are of Christ who are called Christians.

 

[Oblio]

For two hundred years the core of the faith was Apostolic Judaism. These people were Torah observenat Jews who practiced Judaism, with the knowledge that Yeshua was the Jewish Messiah promised throughout the Jewish scriptures.

Your theology which is founded on the Church fathers of the 3rd century deletes Israel, and replaces it with your own Gentile version of "Church" that is abscentof Gods law, teaching, the Jewish Messiah is replaced with the almost Gentile Jesus, the appointed festivals of God, the eternal covenants of God and everything else that the first followers believed is swept away..

You of course have cites by the Early Church Fathers that substantiate this claim.

There is no difference between the Apostolic Fathers, the Ante-Nicean Fathers and the Post-Nicean Fathers in faith or praxis. The Church today holds to the same faith that has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.

 

[CharlesYTK]

You of course have cites by the Early Church Fathers that substantiate this claim.

There is no difference between the Apostolic Fathers, the Ante-Nicean Fathers and the Post-Nicean Fathers in faith or praxis. The Church today holds to the same faith that has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.

You would like sites? Here are a few for starters:

Here is what the church historian, Socrates, who died in A.D. 440, wrote nearly a hundred years after Constantine's Sunday Law Decree was issued:

“Although almost all churches through the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Books, chapter 22.

(Charles' comment: Sacred mysteries on the Sabbath, is a reference to the practices of Judaism, as opposed to Christian traditions of Alexandria and Rome, which were based on completely new dogma, the result of the mixture of Mithraism and Jesus.)
The first believers in Y'shua were a Jewish sect known as "Nazarenes" or in Hebrew "N'tzarim" (Acts 11:19; 24:5). The "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Is. 8:14). The fourth century "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed description:

But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written.

(Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

Concerning Passover as opposed to Communion:

Even the historian Epiphanius (who opposed the Quartodecimens) admitted that the Quartodecimen view was the original view when the Messianic Jews were still in Jerusalem (until 132-135 CE) stating, "it was necessary at that time that the whole world follow them [the Messianic Jews] and celebrate with them so that there should be a single confession . . . celebrating one festival [of Passover]." _ Epiphanius, Pan., 70:10:2