Historicist Only What is the Historicist view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

[Christian Gedge]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the Historicist prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Historicist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

 

[eleos1954]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the Historicist prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Historicist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

Adventist Alert to Church History

 

[Christian Gedge]

Thanks for the link. It expresses the view of recent Seventh Day Adventist leaders, though not necessarily the official view of the church. From what I read, most identify 1967 as the end of the 'times of the Gentiles.' As for the start date, some suggested AD 70 and others suggested AD 34. For example,

"I believe that the times of the Gentiles began in AD 34, when the prophetic seventy weeks that God set aside for the people of Israel ended... And if I have understood the prediction of Jesus properly, this time will be 'fulfilled' when Jerusalem shall cease to 'be trodden down of the Gentiles.' The fact that since 1967 Gentiles no longer have occupied Jerusalem means, therefore, that we are now living at the end of 'the times of the Gentiles.' (Dr. Jean Zurcher)​

There were, of course Historicists before the SDA came along. So, please add your thoughts. When do you think the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ started and finished?

 

[eleos1954]

Thanks for the link. It expresses the view of recent Seventh Day Adventist leaders, though not necessarily the official view of the church. From what I read, most identify 1967 as the end of the 'times of the Gentiles.' As for the start date, some suggested AD 70 and others suggested AD 34. For example,

"I believe that the times of the Gentiles began in AD 34, when the prophetic seventy weeks that God set aside for the people of Israel ended... And if I have understood the prediction of Jesus properly, this time will be 'fulfilled' when Jerusalem shall cease to 'be trodden down of the Gentiles.' The fact that since 1967 Gentiles no longer have occupied Jerusalem means, therefore, that we are now living at the end of 'the times of the Gentiles.' (Dr. Jean Zurcher)​

There were, of course Historicists before the SDA came along. So, please add your thoughts. When do you think the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ started and finished?

Seventh day Adventists are the only organized faith group that actually teach from the historicism perspective these days ... that's why I provided the link.

I haven't throughly studied this out ... the AD 34 coinciding with the 70 weeks seems theologically reasonable to me.

As far as the "fullness" of the gentiles ....

I believe we are living in that time and the fullness of the Gentiles” has come in when the gospel has been preached to all the world (however long that takes we do not know).

 

[Christian Gedge]

Seventh day Adventists are the only organized faith group that actually teach from the historicism perspective these days ... that's why I provided the link.

There are other Millerite groups and also individuals from a 'reformed' background who hold to the basic tenets of Historicism. I would like to hear from them too.

Having said that, I did find your article useful.

 

[klutedavid]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the Historicist prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Historicist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

A very good question.

 

[klutedavid]

There are other Millerite groups and also individuals from a 'reformed' background who hold to the basic tenets of Historicism. I would like to hear from them too.

Having said that, I did find your article useful.

If one reads Luke chapter 21, it appears that the world ends when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

I do not believe that we will ever see old covenant Israel, reboot in this present age.

The covenant with Israel that God once maintained has ended, so logically, only a spiritual city of Israel could possibly follow on from the time of the Gentiles.

 

[Andrewn]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the Historicist prophetic viewpoint? “There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)

I believe the word "gentiles" refers to "non-believers," those outside the Church of God. In OT times, these were "non-Jewish." Now, "gentiles" are "non-Christians."

My understanding is that the "times of the gentiles" is the season / kairos of their gathering to the Church of God. This season will be fulfilled / completed at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Revelation 11:15 "Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”"

When did the season of gathering of "non-believers" begin? Probably with the conversion of Cornelius and his family in 34 AD.

The other possibility is the times of the non-believers refers to their rule in Jerusalem. This would be from 587 BC to the 2nd coming of Christ.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I believe the word "gentiles" refers to "non-believers," those outside the Church of God. In OT times, these were "non-Jewish." Now, "gentiles" are "non-Christians."

My understanding is that the "times of the gentiles" is the season / kairos of their gathering to the Church of God. This season will be fulfilled / completed at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Hmm, I need to chew on that? It seems more straight forward to read the 'Gentiles' as its usually understood.

When did the season of gathering of "non-believers" begin? Probably with the conversion of Cornelius and his family in 34 AD.

That's how I see it too.

The other possibility is the times of the non-believers refers to their rule in Jerusalem. This would be from 587 BC to the 2nd coming of Christ.

I think the former invasions dont count as the T.o.t.G. My reasoning is based on Daniel's prophecy which allocates a specific period to "your people." (Dan 9:24) After that era comes 'the Times of the Gentiles.' That's how I see it.

 

[Andrewn]

Hmm, I need to chew on that? It seems more straight forward to read the 'Gentiles' as its usually understood.

I don't regard Christians as gentiles because we have been grafted into Israel and the Church is equated with Israel in the NT.

That's how I see it too.

I had the inside scoop .

I think the former invasions dont count as the T.o.t.G. My reasoning is based on Daniel's prophecy which allocates a specific period to "your people." (Dan 9:24) After that era comes 'the Times of the Gentiles.' That's how I see it.

Yes, this makes sense.

Do you agree that "times of the gentiles" come to an end with the Christ's 2nd coming or do you have a different date?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Do you agree that "times of the gentiles" come to an end with the Christ's 2nd coming or do you have a different date?

Shortly before the resurrection. I think a brief window of opportunity will be offered to Israel to accept the Lord, and then the end will come. Having said that, I dont think that Gentiles will not be able to be saved after thier 'times'.

 

[jgr]

I think a brief window of opportunity will be offered to Israel to accept the Lord, and then the end will come.

They've had that opportunity since Calvary, to this moment in time, and multitudes have availed themselves of it.

What other opportunity could there be?

 

[Adamina]

Christian Gedge said: ↑
I think a brief window of opportunity will be offered to Israel to accept the Lord, and then the end will come.

Historicists do read Josephus' historical account of the 1st century Jewish wars leading up to 70AD.

They've had that opportunity since Calvary, to this moment in time, and multitudes have availed themselves of it.
What other opportunity could there be?

Yes, and especially since the event of the prophesied event of Pentecost in Acts and the great commission after the resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus the Christ.

According to Jewish historian Josephus [his 70ad account of the Jewish Wars should be a must read for any Christian], the Jews did get a second chance to escape when Vespasian, who was preparing his assault against Jerusalem and the Jewish rebels, returned to Rome after Nero died leaving his son Titus in charge.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

*snip*
........Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem.
While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero ; whereupon, not knowing what the will of the future emperor might be, he prudently resolved to suspend, for the present, the execution of his design.

Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years ; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed, but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity.................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !
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Luke 21:20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies, then be ye knowing! that nigh Her desolation. 21 then those in Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains;and those in her midst, let them depart out; and those in the countries, let them not come in to her;

Note the Roman Denari mentioned in Reve 6.

Revelation 6:6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."
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James didn't blame the murder of Jesus on the Romans/Gentiles, but on the Jewish rulers in Judea.
And the wrath came upon them to the uttermost.

James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye murder the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they repent out of their murders, nor from out of their sorceries,...........

 

[Christian Gedge]

They've had that opportunity since Calvary, to this moment in time, and multitudes have availed themselves of it.

What other opportunity could there be?

Yes, and especially since the event of the prophesied event of Pentecost in Acts and the great commission after the resurrection and ascension of our Lord Jesus the Christ.

Don’t worry; Im not espousing the futurist idea of Israel returning to their former covenant and elevated to an elite position in a future millennium. No, I’m simply saying that there will be a revival in that nation (to Messiah) just before the end.

As we know, there are national revival precedents throughout Church history - the Methodist revival in England; the Great Awakening in America. That is the sort of scenario I envisage.

 

[klutedavid]

Hmm, I need to chew on that? It seems more straight forward to read the 'Gentiles' as its usually understood.


That's how I see it too.



I think the former invasions dont count as the T.o.t.G. My reasoning is based on Daniel's prophecy which allocates a specific period to "your people." (Dan 9:24) After that era comes 'the Times of the Gentiles.' That's how I see it.

Very good post.

Especially the comment on Daniel chapter nine,"your people",
the Jews.

Old Testament Israel, old covenant Israel has passed and never to be seen again.

The new Jerusalem is from above and we are certainly in the age of the Gentiles (Luke 21) now.

 

[klutedavid]

I don't regard Christians as gentiles because we have been grafted into Israel and the Church is equated with Israel in the NT.

The text does not say that Gentiles are grafted into Israel.

Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree.

The gentile branch was grafted into the root of the olive tree.

Israel as a nation was grafted out of the olive tree.

Romans 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Do you agree that "times of the gentiles" come to an end with the Christ's 2nd coming or do you have a different date?

Yes, that is what Luke's account states.

 

[klutedavid]

Don’t worry; Im not espousing the futurist idea of Israel returning to their former covenant and elevated to an elite position in a future millennium. No, I’m simply saying that there will be a revival in that nation (to Messiah) just before the end.

As we know, there are national revival precedents throughout Church history - the Methodist revival in England; the Great Awakening in America. That is the sort of scenario I envisage.

Personally I believe that Paul, the profound patriot of Israel, wrote Romans before 70 AD. If Paul had seen the destruction of the temple, the fall of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the Jews across the world.

Then Paul may have realized that the old covenant and promises, that God established with Israel. Were now terminated because of Israel's disobedience and rebellion. Israel was effectively a gentile nation again after 70 AD.
No longer a chosen people.

 

[dougangel]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the Historicist prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for precise start and finish dates. What events mark those dates? Also, a brief summary of the Historicist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

Very interesting discussion. I've been under decided about these verses for a long time. It can be taken in a couple of contexts. A historical context and or a Spiritual context.


Luke 21: 20-24
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

IF you read that passage it does seem to be talking in a historical nature.
Divided city: Jordanian and Israeli rule (1948–1967)
Total Israeli rule (1967–present)Reunification of Jerusalem. Total control by the Israelis doesn't happen till 1967.

Spiritual view

The term gentile is constantly paired with the term Jew in the bible that is Jew and Gentile.
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
So there was a temple age until Christ died now we are in the church age. the time of gentiles or church age is fulfilled when Jesus come back.

 

[jgr]

Personally I believe that Paul, the profound patriot of Israel, wrote Romans before 70 AD. If Paul had seen the destruction of the temple, the fall of Jerusalem, and the scattering of the Jews across the world.

Then Paul may have realized that the old covenant and promises, that God established with Israel. Were now terminated because of Israel's disobedience and rebellion. Israel was effectively a gentile nation again after 70 AD.
No longer a chosen people.

Scholarly consensus for Paul's letter to the Romans is before AD60, as you've opined.

There is no doubt that Paul understood the distinction between faithful obedient, and unfaithful disobedient; Israel (Romans 9:6-8,27; 10:1,21; 11:1-5,7,23,26; et al). From the time of Israel's birth, the only chosen people were the faithful obedient elect remnant within the nation. These, God preserved and protected.

The unfaithful and disobedient, He slew by the thousands.

Paul would have been entirely unsurprised by the events of AD70.

 

[jgr]

Don’t worry; Im not espousing the futurist idea of Israel returning to their former covenant and elevated to an elite position in a future millennium. No, I’m simply saying that there will be a revival in that nation (to Messiah) just before the end.

As we know, there are national revival precedents throughout Church history - the Methodist revival in England; the Great Awakening in America. That is the sort of scenario I envisage.

I would not disagree, and with God, all things are certainly possible.

However, given the complete absence of any NT suggestion of a national reconstitution of Israel, is there any NT Scripture which you believe suggests such a revival?