What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑

Do you think the Tanakh is inspired Scripture?

Don't you?

I do.

So I ask, why is it that you teach that Christians are under Law?

Law:


Deuteronomy 18:15
The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;


Prophets:


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Psalms:


Psalm 50:16-17
King James Version

16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?

17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee.


I also believe that the New Testament is inspired Scripture:


Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


Galatians 4:21
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


1 Timothy 1:6-7
King James Version

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


If the Whole Counsel of God's Word is not balanced we end up with a religious chimera.

So just speak plainly: are Christians under the Law or not.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I am sure you know the difference between a fact and an opinion. We I have given you facts. But don’t believe research it for yourself. It’s a simple fact that only the Bishop of Rome has the authority to convene an ecumenical council of Bishops. If this were not true then the Council of Nivea would have been called by Hosius, the Bishop of Cordoba, Spain, and the first high level church leader personally know by Emperor Constantine. When Constantine approached Hosius with his concerns that the Arian controversy might bring disunity to the Catholic Church, Hosius informed him that the problem could be resolved by an ecumenical council but only the Bishop of Rome had the authority to convene a council. That’s why Constantine contacted the Bishop of Rome.

I can appreciate anyone who has the opinion that my analysis on any given issue is wrong. You are perfectly within your right to have your own opinion, as am I. However, when it comes to facts, I don’t give false facts. I never just repeat things that I read somewhere. I always confirm the accuracy of the information by going to the relevant historical documents. In other words, you may disagree with my opinions, and that’s ok. However, you cannot disagree with the facts.

LOL, not true at all. The Church of Rome has no authority over any Eastern Orthodox Churches. THAT is FACT.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You are not saying we are obligated to keep part of the Law?

That's great!

Would you mind just making a public statement to that effect? Something along the lines of "Christians are not under Law—period."

Thanks in advance!


God bless.

Christians are not under the law. I have never said otherwise. However YOUR definition of what that means I bet is quite different. No one was ever able to keep ALL of the law. You would know that if you understood Torah...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You don't know?

Let me help you with that:




Are you a Messianic Jew that is Eastern Orthodox?

You say one can be both, are you?

I didn't say I was or wasn't. What does it matter. What matters is what I said was true...

 

[P1LGR1M]

P1LGR1M said: ↑
So how can you keep the Law?

You were never required to keep laws you can't keep LOL! There is no temple! I have asked you before how Yeshua kept the laws of menstruation since you said He kept ALL the laws...silence.

Silence? lol

Let's look at this silence:

There were many laws that you could not keep. Even Yeshua could not keep them all.

I'd also like to comment on this last statement of yours:

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Yes, Jesus could—and did—keep all the commandments.

No I didn't, LOL I know what I said. Explain to me how Yeshua kept ALL the Commandments? How about when He menstruated LOL???????????

and yet He never did break it...

The irreverence to the Lord is shocking, as well as speaking of Him in vain.

He was in all points tempted like as we are—yet without sin.

It is clear, though, that this is more back-pedaling. An attempt to cast your statements in another light.

Jesus Christ could—and did—keep all the commandments.

That law regarding women is irrelevant to this fact is something even you yourself have to acknowledge:

and yet He never did break it...

So setting the back-pedaling and dodging efforts aside, let's look at what you said again:

There were many laws that you could not keep. Even Yeshua could not keep them all.

Are you still fervent that there was Law Jesus could not keep?

Or that He never broke the Law, and that my statement is correct:

The irreverence to the Lord is shocking, as well as speaking of Him in vain.

He was in all points tempted like as we are—yet without sin.

It is clear, though, that this is more back-pedaling. An attempt to cast your statements in another light.

Jesus Christ could—and did—keep all the commandments.

You will have to imply the Lord could have violated law specific to women in order to make your dance-step accurate.

You want to do that at this time?

Did Jesus keep all the Commandments? Was He tempted in all points yet without sin?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Via Crucis' point seems to be that if someone claims Christians are to observe Torah they are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers.

Your response: then Jesus was a Judaizer.

Because...?

You don't have to be a Jew to be given Torah, right?

Isn't that what you are implying here. if we give this a little leeway and describe it as an implication?

What exactly did you mean "Those Torot were reiterated in Acts?"

You weren't trying to say that Torah was reiterated in Acts?

Isn't that what you said?

You weren't implying that Torah preceded the formalized Covenant of Law and the time when the Children of Israel (the only real Jews) came into being, and that it post-dates the Cross of Christ?

Because He taught Torah and that was his definition. THE Torah is the FIVE books of Moshe. Torah was given in each one. Adam was not a "Jew" nor was Noah. Noah was given Torot and they were reiterated in Acts. Do you not know that? Why won't you answer any of my questions to you?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Christians are not under the law. I have never said otherwise. However YOUR definition of what that means I bet is quite different. No one was ever able to keep ALL of the law. You would know that if you understood Torah...

And if you understood Torah you would understand that no one ever kept the Law with the exception of Jesus Christ.

That is why He had to die on the Cross:


Galatians 3:18-19
King James Version

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Christians are not under the law. I have never said otherwise. However YOUR definition of what that means I bet is quite different. No one was ever able to keep ALL of the law. You would know that if you understood Torah...

If you simply answered the questions posed we could have gotten to this conclusion long ago.

Thank you for publicly stating that Christians are not under Law.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Silence? lol





That law regarding women is irrelevant to this fact is something even you yourself have to acknowledge:

So setting the back-pedaling and dodging efforts aside, let's look at what you said again:

Are you still fervent that there was Law Jesus could not keep?

Or that He never broke the Law, and that my statement is correct:

You will have to imply the Lord could have violated law specific to women in order to make your dance-step accurate.

You want to do that at this time?

Did Jesus keep all the Commandments? Was He tempted in all points yet without sin?

You AGAIN have taken everything I said completely out of context. YOU said Yeshua kept ALL the law. I said He could not, no one could. I asked you how did He keep the laws of menstruation. You...silence. Now you are changing your context so it "looks" like I was wrong. But I was not. Yeshua could not keep certain laws because He was a man. That was MY point to YOU since YOU said He kept the entire law. The CONTEXT where I said He never BROKE the law was regarding the Sabbath or any other law He could keep. If you continue being dishonest I will no longer converse with you...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Thank you for publicly stating that Christians are not under Law.

And you STILL do not understand that I did NOT agree with you LOL! Under the law does not mean what you think it does...we are not UNDER the curse...death...when we sin...if you murder, you sin against His law...the wages of sin is death...NOW, under grace, we are forgiven if we repent.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Because He taught Torah and that was his definition. THE Torah is the FIVE books of Moshe. Torah was given in each one. Adam was not a "Jew" nor was Noah. Noah was given Torot and they were reiterated in Acts. Do you not know that? Why won't you answer any of my questions to you?

Please. I've answered your questions. Back up a post and look at the quoting of your own words in that post.

As to Adam and Noah not being Jews, I have addressed this several times. Now you would have me reiterate because you keep saying the same things as though somehow it will come out correct at some point.

If the Torah is the Five Books of Moses, and that is how you are now going to define it, then we can say without controversy that Adam and Noah did not have Torah. Because Moses and his five books were not yet in existence.

I've asked you to show where Noah was given "torot" and where it is reiterated in Acts.

Would you like to do this now?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You AGAIN have taken everything I said completely out of context. YOU said Yeshua kept ALL the law. I said He could not, no one could. I asked you how did He keep the laws of menstruation. You...silence. Now you are changing your context so it "looks" like I was wrong. But I was not. Yeshua could not keep certain laws because He was a man. That was MY point to YOU since YOU said He kept the entire law. The CONTEXT where I said He never BROKE the law was regarding the Sabbath or any other law He could keep. If you continue being dishonest I will no longer converse with you...

I still say Jesus kept all of the Laws.

Which one did He violate?

You are saying He couldn't keep all the Laws. I think it is more of a matter that you have realized the absurdity of your statement but your pride won't allow you to simply own up to it.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

And you STILL do not understand that I did NOT agree with you LOL! Under the law does not mean what you think it does...we are not UNDER the curse...death...when we sin...if you murder, you sin against His law...the wages of sin is death...NOW, under grace, we are forgiven if we repent.

So you are retracting your statement?

Christians are under Law?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I do.

So I ask, why is it that you teach that Christians are under Law?

Law:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So just speak plainly: are Christians under the Law or not.

How can Christians be under the law? I never said they were. Yeshua took the curse away on the cross. "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts"

 

[P1LGR1M]

I asked you how did He keep the laws of menstruation. You...silence.

How is this...

P1LGR1M said: ↑

The irreverence to the Lord is shocking, as well as speaking of Him in vain.

He was in all points tempted like as we are—yet without sin.

It is clear, though, that this is more back-pedaling. An attempt to cast your statements in another light.

Jesus Christ could—and did—keep all the commandments.

...silence?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

How can Christians be under the law? I never said they were. Yeshua took the curse away on the cross. "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts"

As long as you are not teaching Christians are under Law we are good.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

And you STILL do not understand that I did NOT agree with you LOL! Under the law does not mean what you think it does...we are not UNDER the curse...death...when we sin...if you murder, you sin against His law...the wages of sin is death...NOW, under grace, we are forgiven if we repent.

Okay, we don't have to view this as you agreeing with me, lol.

Perhaps you should just state what it means to be under Law.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I still say Jesus kept all of the Laws.

Which one did He violate?

You are saying He couldn't keep all the Laws. I think it is more of a matter that you have realized the absurdity of your statement but your pride won't allow you to simply own up to it.


God bless.

Again, HE WAS A MAN. He could not keep the laws of menstruation! He did not violate any of the laws that He was required to keep.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

As long as you are not teaching Christians are under Law we are good.


God bless.

Are you prohibited to murder or is that OK now?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Perhaps you should just state what it means to be under Law.

I have many times already...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Again, HE WAS A MAN. He could not keep the laws of menstruation! He did not violate any of the laws that He was required to keep.

Here is the original context of your argument:

P1LGR1M said: ↑

Quite a bit of Law I am not obligated to keep.

There were many laws that you could not keep. Even Yeshua could not keep them all.

There "were" or "are" many laws I cannot keep?

It's a simple statement, quite a bit of law I am not obligated to keep.

My statement that Jesus could and did keep all of the Laws remains true. He in no way violated the Law, and this is contrasted with men, who can and do violate the Law.

Do you agree?


God bless.