What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Daniel Peres · Sep 27, 2022

Robert Pate said:
There are two Gospels. There is the Kingdom Gospel and the Pauline Gospel. The Kingdom Gospel is the good news that the King has arrived. The Pauline Gospel Is about how Jesus has justified the ungodly Romans 4:5 and has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.

When the books of the Bible were combined by the Catholics, they didn't care for Paul's Gospel, so they hid it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not the Gospel. Those books should have been called "The Christ Event" because they are about Jesus and his ministry.

The Pauline Gospel was revealed to the apostles and preached by Peter on the day of Pentecost. It literally turned Jerusalem upside down and gave birth to the New Testament church. 8,000 heard and believed Peters Gospel and were saved, Acts 2:41 and Acts 4:4. Nothing like that had ever happened before. It was of God because it was of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:4.

Later on, Paul was called by Jesus to take the Gospel to the Gentiles and received the same Gospel as Peter, but in much more detail, Galatians 1:11-12. Paul's Gospel concerned the New Covenant and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. The New Covenant came into effect when Jesus died on the cross, Matthew 27:51. When the New Covenant of salvation by grace through faith came into existence, it canceled out the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion, Ephesians 2:15 also Colossians 2:14.

Many of the Jews could not accept the fact that the Mosiac law had been abolished and still cannot accept it today. Not only Jews but many religions still practice the Old Covenant of laws, rules and religion. Paul said, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Living by laws, rules and religion is not living by faith.

Christians are justified by faith, because they have been justified by Christ. No laws, rules or religion was needed. Romans 3:26. Jesus justifies the ungodly by doing for the ungodly that which they cannot do for themselves because they were born after Adam, Romans 5:12 and are sinners. According to Paul, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Everyone needs to be born again by the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23. In the Gospel Jesus fulfills the law for us, Matthew 5:18 and atones for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. The results of this is that we have been made complete in him, Colossians 2:14. God can find no sin in the man that believes in Jesus, Romans 10:9. In the Gospel, we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30 and stand in God's court as perfect and complete in Christ.

First, your belief that the Catholic Church tried to hide the epistles of Paul is deluded. I have a pretty impressive library of Church History and I can assure you there is no basis for your claim.

Second, you obviously don’t know what a gospel or evangelism is, otherwise you wouldn’t have made such a ridiculous statement. In the ancient world, the people would often receive the good news/Gospel/Evangelium from the king. Jesus is the King of Kings and the NT Gospels give us his good news. In other words, the Gospels could have only come from the messiah/Christ. Paul was a great apostle to the Gentiles, but he certainly was no king, and therefore his news could not be called Gospel.

I don’t want to be mean, but you really need to do a little research before you post such things.

RobertPate · Sep 27, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
First, your belief that the Catholic Church tried to hide the epistles of Paul is deluded. I have a pretty impressive library of Church History and I can assure you there is no basis for your claim.

Second, you obviously don’t know what a gospel or evangelism is, otherwise you wouldn’t have made such a ridiculous statement. In the ancient world, the people would often receive the good news/Gospel/Evangelium from the king. Jesus is the King of Kings and the NT Gospels give us his good news. In other words, the Gospels could have only come from the messiah/Christ. Paul was a great apostle to the Gentiles, but he certainly was no king, and therefore his news could not be called Gospel.

I don’t want to be mean, but you really need to do a little research before you post such things.

Most Catholics oppose the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Your library of church history was composed by Catholics that only believe Catholic doctrine. Catholicism is a man conceived religion. There is nothing in the Bible about a church in Rome, nor is there any connection between the Christian church in Jerusalem and the Catholic church in Rome, nor is there any evidence that Peter went to Rome.

Christians are justified by faith alone, because they are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Jesus justifies the ungodly by doing for the ungodly that which they cannot do for themselves. As humanities representative he fulfills the law and atones for their sins. Making them complete in himself, Colossians 2:10.

Daniel Peres · Sep 27, 2022

First, you didn’t acknowledge that Paul was not a king and therefore by definition incapable of delivering a gospel.

As far as for Justification by Faith Alone I won’t bother debating that with you because, like most Protestants, you are easily triggered by the word “works” to explain justification.

So let me explain Catholicism in a different way. We believe it is necessary to have loving personal relationship with Jesus. We believe we need his love and we must love him in return, like a marriage. It’s impossible to have a successful marital relationship if only one spouse loves the other. In other words, a husband must love his wife and a wife must love her husband if there is to be a relationship. Jesus’ love for us is not something Protestants and Catholics disagree about. However, Protestant’s don’t seem to agree with Catholics that we must love Jesus in return, otherwise Jesus will by definition have an unrequited love. However, we must love Jesus in the way he wants to be loved. So how do we know we are loving Jesus in the right way? Simple, just read John 14:15 where Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” He also tells us how he wants to be loved with his parable of the goats and sheep. While the goats accepted Jesus as their Lord, they never loved him by loving their fellow humans and as a result they could not enter heaven. The sheep, on the other hand loved their fellow humans and were able to enter heaven. We can also see this with the 11th commandment Jesus gave us, “love one another even as I have loved you.” This commandment must be followed. A commandment is an instruction that must be obeyed. Why would Jesus give us a new commandment the night before his crucifixion that was never meant to be obeyed.

So you see, Catholics don’t believe we can earn salvation, no more than a husband can earn his wife’s love. We simply believe that in order to be saved, a person must be in a personal and loving relationship with Jesus. I would hope you don’t find that belief to be offensive.

RobertPate · Sep 27, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
First, you didn’t acknowledge that Paul was not a king and therefore by definition incapable of delivering a gospel.

As far as for Justification by Faith Alone I won’t bother debating that with you because, like most Protestants, you are easily triggered by the word “works” to explain justification.

So let me explain Catholicism in a different way. We believe it is necessary to have loving personal relationship with Jesus. We believe we need his love and we must love him in return, like a marriage. It’s impossible to have a successful marital relationship if only one spouse loves the other. In other words, a husband must love his wife and a wife must love her husband if there is to be a relationship. Jesus’ love for us is not something Protestants and Catholics disagree about. However, Protestant’s don’t seem to agree with Catholics that we must love Jesus in return, otherwise Jesus will by definition have an unrequited love. However, we must love Jesus in the way he wants to be loved. So how do we know we are loving Jesus in the right way? Simple, just read John 14:15 where Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” He also tells us how he wants to be loved with his parable of the goats and sheep. While the goats accepted Jesus as their Lord, they never loved him by loving their fellow humans and as a result they could not enter heaven. The sheep, on the other hand loved their fellow humans and were able to enter heaven. We can also see this with the 11th commandment Jesus gave us, “love one another even as I have loved you.” This commandment must be followed. A commandment is an instruction that must be obeyed. Why would Jesus give us a new commandment the night before his crucifixion that was never meant to be obeyed.

So you see, Catholics don’t believe we can earn salvation, no more than a husband can earn his wife’s love. We simply believe that in order to be saved, a person must be in a personal and loving relationship with Jesus. I would hope you don’t find that belief to be offensive.

We are not saved by loving Jesus. Nor are we saved by obeying the commandments. We are saved by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. When Jesus lived, we lived in him, our humanity was constituted in him. When Jesus died, we died with him, Romans 6:6. When Jesus arose from the dead, we arose with him, Romans 6:5. We can now say with all certainty that God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. In Jesus Christ the law has been fulfilled, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4. In Jesus Christ all sin has been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. Renounce your man conceived religion and trust in Christ alone.

Valletta · Sep 27, 2022

Robert Pate said:
We are not saved by loving Jesus. Nor are we saved by obeying the commandments. We are saved by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. When Jesus lived, we lived in him, our humanity was constituted in him. When Jesus died, we died with him, Romans 6:6. When Jesus arose from the dead, we arose with him, Romans 6:5. We can now say with all certainty that God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. In Jesus Christ the law has been fulfilled, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4. In Jesus Christ all sin has been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. Renounce your man conceived religion and trust in Christ alone.

Who told you that Catholics "hid" the Gospel of Paul? Do you have any written documentation to support this person's claim, there is nothing about your story in Holy Scripture. How long was the Gospel of Paul hidden? Again, documentation is appreciated.

Daniel Peres · Sep 27, 2022

Robert Pate said:
We are not saved by loving Jesus. Nor are we saved by obeying the commandments. We are saved by the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. When Jesus lived, we lived in him, our humanity was constituted in him. When Jesus died, we died with him, Romans 6:6. When Jesus arose from the dead, we arose with him, Romans 6:5. We can now say with all certainty that God now sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. In Jesus Christ the law has been fulfilled, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness" Romans 10:4. In Jesus Christ all sin has been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. Renounce your man conceived religion and trust in Christ alone.

My dear sir, if you want to be a goat, by all means go ahead and be a goat. I sincerely hope you don’t suffer their fate. I choose to be a sheep. I choose to love Jesus. I love Jesus more than I love anything in this universe. Furthermore, I love loving Jesus because without mutual love, by definition of the word relationship, their can be no relationship with Jesus. I for one would rather not exist at all if it means I don’t have a relationship with Jesus. So go ahead and call me evil while I enjoy my personal relationship with Jesus.

BTW, may I ask if you are an Evangelical Christian? I’m just asking because I think it would really be hilarious to tell people that I met an Evangelical Christian that didn’t know what an evangelium/gospel was.

Ceallaigh · Sep 27, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
But if it is true, so what

Since you ask, if someone calls themselves Eastern Orthodox when they're really Messianic, they are being deceptive.

Ceallaigh · Sep 27, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Why is everyone so concerned about something that has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

Paul said, "For you are not under the law, but under grace" Romans 6:14.

To be under the law is to be under God's judgment, Galatians 3:10.

Not everyone, just a handful everyone else argues against.

Ceallaigh · Sep 27, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
My dear sir, if you want to be a goat, by all means go ahead and be a goat. I sincerely hope you don’t suffer their fate. I choose to be a sheep. I choose to love Jesus. I love Jesus more than I love anything in this universe. Furthermore, I love loving Jesus because without mutual love, by definition of the word relationship, their can be no relationship with Jesus. I for one would rather not exist at all if it means I don’t have a relationship with Jesus. So go ahead and call me evil while I enjoy my personal relationship with Jesus.

That's not what the parable of the sheep and the goats is about. Matthew 25:31-46

ViaCrucis · Sep 27, 2022

Robert Pate said:
Most Catholics oppose the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Your library of church history was composed by Catholics that only believe Catholic doctrine. Catholicism is a man conceived religion. There is nothing in the Bible about a church in Rome, nor is there any connection between the Christian church in Jerusalem and the Catholic church in Rome, nor is there any evidence that Peter went to Rome.

Christians are justified by faith alone, because they are justified by Christ alone, Romans 3:26. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles them and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Jesus justifies the ungodly by doing for the ungodly that which they cannot do for themselves. As humanities representative he fulfills the law and atones for their sins. Making them complete in himself, Colossians 2:10.

Did you just claim there is nothing in the Bible about a church in Rome, and then go on to reference Romans?

-CryptoLutheran

Ceallaigh · Sep 27, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Did you just claim there is nothing in the Bible about a church in Rome, and then go on to reference Romans

Well... Romans 1:7 says "To all who are in Rome" rather than "to the church in Rome".

Ceallaigh · Sep 28, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
First, your belief that the Catholic Church tried to hide the epistles of Paul is deluded. I have a pretty impressive library of Church History and I can assure you there is no basis for your claim.

Second, you obviously don’t know what a gospel or evangelism is, otherwise you wouldn’t have made such a ridiculous statement. In the ancient world, the people would often receive the good news/Gospel/Evangelium from the king. Jesus is the King of Kings and the NT Gospels give us his good news. In other words, the Gospels could have only come from the messiah/Christ. Paul was a great apostle to the Gentiles, but he certainly was no king, and therefore his news could not be called Gospel.

I don’t want to be mean, but you really need to do a little research before you post such things.

What about:

"This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." Romans 2:16

Ceallaigh · Sep 28, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
So you see, Catholics don’t believe we can earn salvation, no more than a husband can earn his wife’s love. We simply believe that in order to be saved, a person must be in a personal and loving relationship with Jesus. I would hope you don’t find that belief to be offensive.

That's not really what I heard from a well known Catholic apologist named Tim Staples.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Sep 28, 2022

MMXX said:
Since you ask, if someone calls themselves Eastern Orthodox when they're really Messianic, they are being deceptive.

Why is that? I can be both. Not being deceptive at all! However, that was not the context of our conversation. What I SAID was true...

Ceallaigh · Sep 28, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Why is that? I can be both. Not being deceptive at all! However, that was not the context of our conversation. What I SAID was true...

From what I've read from Messianics, they're diametrically opposed to the Catholic church, which is what the Orthodox church essentially is. As for what you said, since you worded it in such a Hebrew-ish way I'm not sure I entirely understood it.

P1LGR1M · Sep 28, 2022

John Owen said:
I don't think he has a job. LOL

You think not having a job is funny?

But, I hate to disappoint: I am an HVAC Contractor in business for myself. I am getting over Covid so had quite a bit of time on my hands the last few weeks, and had actually finished my time on this forum and had left but due to certain circumstances felt compelled to return to deal with the issues that I feel are important.

And dealing with Judaizers is important.

I have worked hard for a lot of years to have the ability to set my own schedule. It is God that gives me liberty to spend time trying to help others understand His Word better.

So how much longer I am here remains to be seen. Right now—that is my job.

God bless

P1LGR1M · Sep 28, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Wow 14 new messages from you LOL!

As I said, I am parsing the posts to both make it easier to quote what you are saying and to make sure you don't have an excuse not to answer such small posts.

I take the teaching that Christians are under Law very serious.

Continued...

RobertPate · Sep 28, 2022

Valletta said:
Who told you that Catholics "hid" the Gospel of Paul? Do you have any written documentation to support this person's claim, there is nothing about your story in Holy Scripture. How long was the Gospel of Paul hidden? Again, documentation is appreciated.

It is very apparent that Paul's Gospel is hidden, 2 Corinthians 4:3. If it was not hidden from you, you would not be a Catholic.

RobertPate · Sep 28, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
Did you just claim there is nothing in the Bible about a church in Rome, and then go on to reference Romans?

-CryptoLutheran

There were believers in Rome, but there is no mention of a church. In John's letters to the seven churches, Revelation 1:11. There is no mention of a church in Rome.

P1LGR1M · Sep 28, 2022

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
I really do not have time for all of this.

Makes no difference to me—as long as the teaching of Judaizers is shut down.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
But there you go again. Of course how the law can be followed can change, no one has said otherwise.

It's not a matter of "how" the Law is followed, it is a matter of whether the Law has to be followed.

And it is a matter that you didn't think the Law had been changed, which means you simply don't know. It isn't something we have to "think about."

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
and yet He never did break it...

MMXX said:
He changed it.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
I don't think He changed it...I think He interpreted it correctly...

P1LGR1M said:
He did change it:

Hebrews 7:11-12
King James Version

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

You can back-peddle all you want, the fact remains that the statement "He changed it" stands, because it is a Basic Truth of New Covenant Relationship.

You can tell people to "keep the Law" but the fact is that "keeping the Law" is an impossibility for believers in this Age, and has been since the First Century.

Your teaching must therefore be changed to "Keep the Law that hasn't been changed."

When those who were in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law were commanded to keep the Law they weren't given a buffet of recommendations they could pick and choose from.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So I'd like to see in the New Testament where exactly you have been given license to prescribe Partial-Law to men.

Please show that you are interpreting the Word of God properly as Jesus Christ did when He was under Law.

Continued...

What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

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