What is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
He didn't interprete it, he created it.

Well yes He did! But He needed to interpret it correctly for those that were condemning Him and did not understand it...
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.



Yes, Jesus could—and did—keep all the commandments.

No I didn't, LOL I know what I said. Explain to me how Yeshua kept ALL the Commandments? How about when He menstruated LOL???????????

The irreverence to the Lord is shocking, as well as speaking of Him in vain.

He was in all points tempted like as we are—yet without sin.

It is clear, though, that this is more back-pedaling. An attempt to cast your statements in another light.

Jesus Christ could—and did—keep all the commandments.


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yeshua was a JEW and followed and taught Torah...

I agree, as I said before, He was made of a woman, made under Law, and was sent in the fullness of times to redeem those who were under Law.

But this does not answer the questions posed to you.

Here are the questions again:


P1LGR1M said:
So answer two questions, please:

1. Is Jesus a Judaizer?

2. Is it heresy to teach Christians they are supposed to observe Torah?


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's the question again: Is Jesus a Judaizer?

Yeshua was a JEW and followed and taught Torah...does that make him one?

No, because a Judaizer is someone that professes to be a Christian and seeks to put other Christians under Law.

There were no Judaizers in Christ's day as He ministered to Israel.

It's a yes or no question: do you believe Jesus Christ is a Judaizer?


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You did. Now you are trying to change your story:

No I said what I said. YOU are changing what I said...

This is what you said:


Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Noah was given law...Noahide laws. Noah had a covenant and laws too.



You can click on the link and see I am directly quoting your statement.

You are the one trying to change what you said, not me.

So here is the declaration that Noah was given law—Noahide laws.

So two questions:


1. Where in Scripture do we see the Noahide laws you refer to here?

2. How are the Noahide laws Mosaic laws?


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Romans 5:13-14
King James Version

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



What does Paul mean, "For until the Law sin was in the world?"

When was that?

You just don't get it...
"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression"...ONLY ADAM and Chavah were in the garden...

What I get is this: your doctrine won't allow you to answer simple questions.

This is not an answer to the question above.

Most are aware that there is a period of time when the Law is not in the world, yet still—death reigned.

The two questions asked of you, though, is what does "...until the law" mean, and when is this period?

Here it is again without the BBCode:


Romans 5:13-14
King James Version

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



What does Paul mean, "For until the Law sin was in the world?"

When was that?


God bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You shall not steal...do you follow or no?

That Christians obey the principles of God's will revealed to man does not make them "under Law" or under command to "keep the Law."

As I pointed out, that we are able to keep the Law is not because we are special, or holy, but it is because God is Holy, and has placed His Spirit within us (Ezekiel 36:27).

Here is what I said:

P1LGR1M said:
Your answer is a no, whether you realize it or not.

I agree with this statement: If someone claims that Christians are supposed to observe Torah they are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers.

Do you?


The statement is specific to people that claim Christians are supposed to observe Torah are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers.

You can't answer a yes or no question with "yes and no."

When you do you show that you do not believe claiming Christians are supposed to observe Torah are teaching the heresy of the Judaizer.

See the problem there?



So here it is again:

I agree with this statement: If someone claims that Christians are supposed to observe Torah they are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers. Do you?


If you don't think it is heresy that Christians are supposed to observe Torah—why don't you just answer the question?

It's a yes or no question. Not a yes and no question.

What makes answering the questions posed to you so hard?


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Love HaShem and your brother...do you follow or no.

I try, but not because I am "...under Law" or because I am "...under Law as a child of God" which is contrasted with those who were actually under Law because they were children of Israel.

Why do you think I am trying to help you? It is because of my love for you and my desire to see you understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ liberates men, it redeems them—from the Law.

But if you are going to teach men they must keep the Law let me ask you this: when was the last time you went to the Temple and sacrifice was made for your sin?


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is Torah...

But it is not the Law.

When the Law is spoken of in the Epistles which were written to clarify for Christians the precepts and principles and doctrines we are to abide by we are told specifically that Gentiles are not commanded to keep the Law:


Acts 15:23-24
King James Version

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:



So just speak plainly.

I will ask again:

P1LGR1M said:
Your answer is a no, whether you realize it or not.

I agree with this statement: If someone claims that Christians are supposed to observe Torah they are teaching the heresy of the Judaizers.

Do you?



It's a yes or no question.


God bless.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8:56

This is in response to my statement...

P1LGR1M said:

The Old Testament Saints were not believing in Jesus Christ either.


Abraham was not believing in Jesus Christ either.

We are told specifically what Abraham was believing when he was temporally justified:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



Abraham "rejoiced to see Christ's Day" according to a veiled Gospel. He understood that God would give him a son of his own loins from a wife beyond the age of bearing.

He was not eternally justified by Christ in His day and died still offering up animal sacrifice for the provisional remission of sin it accorded to men in all Ages prior to Christ dying on the Cross.

We see this in Romans 4 as well:


Romans 4:18-22
King James Version

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.



Not even the disciples of Christ were believing in Him because the Gospel was still veiled to them. This is why it is important to distinguish the Gospel given to men veiled (i.e., Genesis 3:15, Genesis 12:1-3, Isaiah 53) and the Gospel revealed by the Spirit sent down from Heaven, the Comforter.

Abraham died still offering up animal sacrifice, as did Noah, as did Jacob. Their sins were redeemed in an eternal context when Christ died for them:


Romans 3:25
King James Version

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 9:15
King James Version

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


For those unfamiliar with the Book of Hebrews the "First Testament" is a reference to the Covenant of Law. It was necessary that a Better Sacrifice from a Better Priest be offered to redeem the transgressions of men in an eternal context.

Thus the necessity of a New Covenant was the promise of God to all mankind beginning with the Proto-Evangelium in Genesis 3:15.

The Gospel of Christ began there and was, over time, given more information for men to place faith in God.

Abraham did not have the revelation Israel did. He was not aware of a singular Messiah that would sit upon the Throne of David. He was not even aware of David.

What made him rejoice was that God had promised him a son, and that through his offspring (which was given in a plural context) all families of the earth would be blessed.

And we have Scripture to confirm that this is the Gospel as it was presented to Abraham:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is NOT what Yeshua said or meant...

At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus became the Christ, but was Eternal Creator God manifest in the flesh at that time.

Of course He was before Abraham—He created Abraham.

But there is a specific point in time when the Eternal Son of God came unto men. That is why we call Messianic Prophecy prophecy. It foretells what will happen:


Isaiah 42:1-7
King James Version

42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.



The Children of Israel rejoiced to see the Day of Messiah as did Abraham, but they did not understand that it would be God manifest in the flesh and that His Name was Jesus.

Abraham had no idea about Jesus Christ being the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Abraham had no understanding of Jesus Christ dying in his stead.

Abraham had no understanding that Jesus would make the Covenant of Law obsolete by establishing the New Covenant—he didn't even have an understanding of the Covenant of Law.

So yes, Abraham rejoiced to see the day when all families of the earth would be blessed though his seed, but he didn't understand all families of the earth would be blessed through the Singular Seed, Jesus Christ.


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, but I believe that a strong case can be made to do so, based upon the Ten Commandments.

And I believe a stronger case can be made to show we are not obligated, as those under Law were—to keep the Sabbath:


Acts 15:23-24
King James Version

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Colossians 2:15-17
King James Version

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The Law was a shadow of the True. As Children, we are not under Law, but are the Body of Christ and understand the realities pictured in the type, shadow, parable, and figure given in the Law and the Old Testament.

We are not obligated to keep the Law, though we keep the principles, precepts, and instruction found in all of God's revealed will to man. We have to maintain a proper context, though. For example, the shadow of Christ's Sacrifice seen in vicarious animal sacrifice is not something we "keep." Why? Because Christ has fulfilled that aspect of the Prophecy type/figure/shadow.

As far as whether someone can keep the Sabbath, sure they can. But they err when they demand everyone has to do so.


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,498
136
✟16,853.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think He changed it...I think He interpreted it correctly... :)

He did change it:


Hebrews 7:11-12
King James Version

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.



The reason the Law changed is because the Covenant of Law has been made obsolete.

New Covenant, New (and better) High Priest, and a changing of the Law:


Hebrews 12:18-21
King James Version

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)



We are not come to the place of the establishing of the Law:


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



Note that His Sacrifice is contrasted with vicarious animal sacrifice going all the way back to Abel (Genesis 4:4). Abel's sacrifice predates the Covenant of Law, as well as the "Noahide laws," as well as the Abrahamic laws. Throughout History, men could obtain remission of sin when an animal died in their place. When they died, though, their sins were not forgiven in an eternal context.

Only The Sacrifice of Christ can bring about Eternal Remission.

Note "the spirits of just men made perfect." The Writer makes it clear that the Law, and its sacrifices, and the ones making those sacrifices (the Levitical Priests)—could not make one perfect, or, complete in regards to remission of sins. "The spirits of just men made perfect" is a reference to the Old Testament Saints that were justified in a temporal context during their lifetimes, but Justified in an eternal context when Christ died for their sins (Hebrews 9:15).

I agree, the Lord interpreted the Law (and the Psalms and the Prophets) correctly, but we have to distinguish between His ministry under Law and His ministry to change the Law by making the New Covenant the means of relationship with God, rather than the Covenant of Law.

This is precisely what He is speaking about when He tells the disciples to abide in Him (John 15). No longer will Israel be in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law, but would have to be in relationship with the True Vine (contrasted with the "vine taken out of Egypt" Psalms 80:8).


God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
He did change it:

Hebrews 7:11-12
King James Version

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


The reason the Law changed is because the Covenant of Law has been made obsolete.

Note that His Sacrifice is contrasted with vicarious animal sacrifice going all the way back to Abel (Genesis 4:4). Abel's sacrifice predates the Covenant of Law, as well as the "Noahide laws," as well as the Abrahamic laws. Throughout History, men could obtain remission of sin when an animal died in their place. When they died, though, their sins were not forgiven in an eternal context.

I agree, the Lord interpreted the Law (and the Psalms and the Prophets) correctly, but we have to distinguish between His ministry under Law and His ministry to change the Law by making the New Covenant the means of relationship with God, rather than the Covenant of Law.

Wow 14 new messages from you LOL! I really do not have time for all of this. But there you go again. Of course how the law can be followed can change, no one has said otherwise. My point was when He was questioned and incorrectly condemned, He interpreted the law correctly for them. You took it in a completely different direction. I mean, for just one example, the Temple does not exist so those laws can not be followed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John Owen

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2022
497
335
Minneapolis
✟14,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Wow 14 new messages from you LOL! I really do not have time for all of this. But there you go again. Of course how the law can be followed can change, no one has said otherwise. My point was when He was questioned and incorrectly condemned, He interpreted the law correctly for them. You took it in a completely different direction. I mean, for just one example, the Temple does not exist so those laws can not be followed.
I don't think he has a job. LOL
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Jesus became the Christ, but was Eternal Creator God manifest in the flesh at that time.

Of course He was before Abraham—He created Abraham.

But there is a specific point in time when the Eternal Son of God came unto men. That is why we call Messianic Prophecy prophecy. It foretells what will happen:


Isaiah 42:1-7
King James Version

42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.



The Children of Israel rejoiced to see the Day of Messiah as did Abraham, but they did not understand that it would be God manifest in the flesh and that His Name was Jesus.

Abraham had no idea about Jesus Christ being the Mediator of the New Covenant.

Abraham had no understanding of Jesus Christ dying in his stead.

Abraham had no understanding that Jesus would make the Covenant of Law obsolete by establishing the New Covenant—he didn't even have an understanding of the Covenant of Law.

So yes, Abraham rejoiced to see the day when all families of the earth would be blessed though his seed, but he didn't understand all families of the earth would be blessed through the Singular Seed, Jesus Christ.


God bless.

I think he had a good idea... Genesis 22
 
Upvote 0

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,444
3,769
Eretz
✟317,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
That I cannot get a straight answer to even one of the questions I ask?


God bless.

No, that you expect me to agree with your definitions of words you define and then tell me to prove them wrong LOL!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

John Owen

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2022
497
335
Minneapolis
✟14,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
No, that you expect me to agree with your definitions of words you define and then tell me to prove them wrong LOL!

That is a classic manipulation tactic.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.