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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    That's funny. I wonder why God wanted to bless Israel's enemies.
     
  2. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    To punish Israel in future like he did many times . When they went astray from him he took other nations to bring them back to himself .
     
  3. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    That's funny. I wonder why Jonah hated Nineveh.
     
  4. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Told you alredy , because they were enemies. In that age you could not travel abroad or seek refuge , if there was much stronger city they would gather men , go siege the other city and plunder it .
    If you said a word " siege" everbody would tremble back then , it means people who would be under siege they had no food , dying of lack of water . They would even start eating thier own babies to survive like animals .

    So you would rather see enemy city destroyed than growing in power of the risk of siege on your own city .

    Jeremiah 19:9 King James Version (KJV)
    9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
     
  5. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    You should read a few scholars. This is the correct sequence.

    God raised Nineveh to punish Israel.
    Jonah hated Nineveh because it killed so many in Israel.
    God forced Jonah to bless Nineveh because it did not know right from wrong, did not have the Law.

    In other words, God had already used Nineveh to punish Israel, it was not a future event.

    And God forced Jonah to bless Nineveh because he had forgotten that Israel was supposed to bless the world.
     
  6. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Israel can't be blessing the world if they serve pagan gods and sacrifice children to Baal , so they had to be punished for doing so .
     
  7. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The point is that God will not force you to use your opportunity. Today if you hear His voice, don´t be disobedient, like Israel was, and because of which she missed the opportunity to enter Rest, the ability to be a blessing to the world.

    A warning will not be given unless there is a danger of missing the opportunity. Force will not be used.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    I think that somewhere along the line you have fallen for the false doctrine of salvation by works, which is clearly contradicted by scripture (e.g. Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 11:5-6, Titus 3:4-7)

    Of course a heart faith is necessary to be forgiven of all sin/sins through the blood of Christ.

    A heart faith is always unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).

    The way it works is that if you truly understand that you are forgiven much, you will love Jesus much (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19). And you will also love your brothers and sisters in the Lord (1 John 4:20-21, 1 John 5:1-3), at the very least (Matthew 5:43-48). This love is not in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18).

    However, forgiveness (and righteousness) is the free gift of God (Romans 5:15-17).
     
  9. Wordkeeper

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    Romans 4:5 contrasts those who are in a personal relationship with God, a person whose sins He will not take into account, with those who are circumcised , who have a contractual relationship with Him:

    Romans 4
    8Blessed is the one

    whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”b

    9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

    Paul is arguing against the need to become a Jew, not against the need for faith, loyalty, obedience, good works.

    Ephesians 2
    8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    Ephesians 2 is arguing against the Gentiles who thought God had chosen them because they had more good works than Israel, which had been cutoff. Just as God had chosen Israel for no reason (she was actually the most insignificant of all nations, God included Gentiles for no reason, arbitrarily.

    Romans 11
    4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    Romans 11 teaches that God had allowed a remnant to survive, that God had not made Israel extinct like Sodom and Gomorrah. Were the remnant surviving because of Law? No one could survive by Law, no one was righteous, obeyed perfectly. How did they survive? By not bowing their knees to Baal. They bowed their knees to God, were faithful, were loyal, did things that pleased God. The verse does not say they were chosen even though they worshipped Baal.

    Titus 3
    4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Titus 3 is not teaching that God saved us even though we bowed to Baal. It says that the New Covenant is not conditional on perfect works, but God's grace is sufficient. How is God's grace received? By the washing of the Holy Spirit, revelation, understanding:

    Ephesians 4
    25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

    John 15:3
    You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

    If we are justified only by grace, mercy, why does God have to wash us first?
     
  10. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Because no one is beyond God's love. That's the whole point of the book. It's a satire against Israelite confidence that God is on their side alone.
     
  11. Wordkeeper

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    I wanted to emphasize that we can miss out entering Rest, reaching the goal, the gift of the Gospel, if we are disloyal. God isn't going to force us to be blessings to the world. He will bring us to understanding of our privileged position in His plan, just as He brought Jonah to understand the privileged position of Israel in being a light to Gentiles.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Those are your explanations; not what the word of God truly teaches.

    If anyone desires to be justified by works/law-keeping/their own righteousness, their righteousness must be perfect and impeccable from conception to eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Isaiah 57:12, Isaiah 64:6).

    The only way to salvation is forgiveness through faith in the blood of Jesus; you must humble yourself and admit that you are a sinner before God. Works follow a genuine salvation. Whosoever is forgiven much, loves much (Luke 7:36-50).

    But if you are putting your trust in your works, your reward must not be reckoned of grace but of debt (Romans 4:4). And the Lord will not owe salvation to anyone. He offers it as a free gift (Romans 5:15-19).
     
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  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    God would later use the Israelite prophet Nahum to foretell God's destruction of Nineveh (Nahum 3:7, Nahum 1:1, Nahum 2:8), which occurred in 612 BC

    Also, under the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the Israelites were in effect commanded to hate their enemies (Matthew 5:43b). For Deuteronomy 23:6 is the opposite of love, which seeks the peace and prosperity of those toward whom it is directed.

    *******

    God's future, Two Witnesses/prophets will bring plagues upon the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:3-6).
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    While initial salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), ultimate salvation is (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9).

    *******

    No, for there is provision if we commit a sin and repent (1 John 1:9).

    Also, the law that Christians follow is not the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) referred to in Galatians 3:10, but Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament law (John 14:15).

    Regarding Matthew 5:48, it is possible for Christians to be perfect (2 Timothy 3:17; 2 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Luke 6:40, John 17:23; 1 Corinthians 2:6, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, James 1:4).

    Regarding Isaiah 57:12, it refers to works not profiting us if we are in unrepentant sin (Isaiah 57:9-12). Compare Hebrews 10:26-29.

    Regarding Isaiah 64:6, on their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

    Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    A genuine, initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Nonelect individuals are (Romans 9:11-22).
     
  16. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Out of context. I will prove it to you one by one with the references you offered.

    Romans 4
    4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    7“BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,

    AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

    8“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”

    9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

    You are using Romans 4 to prove that salvation is not given in return for effort, but for no effort, that is, a free gift. Payment contrasted with gift.

    But Paul is contrasting loyalty, faith, with circumcision, as a requirement to receive the blessing, justification, to be found righteous.

    He was teaching that it was not necessary to become a Jew to receive God’s blessing.

    See how easy it is to prove the meaning wrong? Make more effort not to make a serious mistake which will lead to gnashing of teeth later on.
     
  17. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Deuteronomy 23
    3An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:4Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. 5Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee. 6Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

    Deuteronomy 23:6 is directed at the Ammonites and Moabites who attacked Israel as she passed through their lands while travelling to Canaan. On another level, believers must not allow sin to exist in their lives but must make all efforts to put to death the deeds of the body through the Spirit.

    How believers will be a blessing to the world, a recurring theme:

    Genesis 1
    28God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

    Genesis 12
    3I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you; and all the families of the earth will be blessed through you.”

    Isaiah 49
    6"Yea, He saith, 'It is too light a thing for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the scions of Israel, and I shall submit you as a light unto the nations, to be My salvation until the end of the earth' .

    Adam was in union with God, the partnering enabling him to complete creation. At a later time, union with God was available, to bless the world, fix the Fall, and then complete creation, but Israel could not enter that rest because of unbelief, disloyalty.
     
  18. Wordkeeper

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    Genesis 29
    31And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

    Jacob didn't hate Leah. "Hated" is a hebraism for "loved less".
     
  19. Blood Bought 1953

    Blood Bought 1953 Ned Flander’s Buddy

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    Wow.It just not does not get any worse than this.I hope others will join me in prayer for this deceived soul.
     
  20. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Yes, Abba. Please destroy the strongholds of the enemy in @Bible2+'s life. I pray that in his regular reading time of your word, you will show him the real truth which contradicts the things he is holding on to as doctrine; please open his eyes by showing him the real meaning of the verses that he always references in trying to prove that his doctrine isn't false. And convict him of his false teaching by causing verses to pop out to him that truly show the reality of how his doctrine isn't true. Holy Spirit, bring home to his heart the meaning of those verses so that he cannot any longer deny the reality of sound doctrine. In Jesus' Name, Amen. PS Lord, please do the same for any and all who may have been deceived by him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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