What is the Gospel?

No one is saved apart from Christ. Ever.

However, how do you read Romans 2? Is every person who was ever born on earth who did not hear the Gospel damned to eternal hell, when through no fault of their own, they did not hear it? It may not have been preached in their country until centuries after they died.

I understand the reticence. And, God forgive me, I will try to offer a scenario. I hope I do not offend. And at the same time, we are very cautious not to intrude into the matters of God.

What if a person was born, in a land and time without the Gospel. But in their heart (on which God has written His laws) they recognize good and evil. And they make every effort to embrace and cultivate the good in themselves, and to do good to others. And what if they sit outside night after night, contemplating the stars, and day after day view the beautiful intricacies of God's creation, and from this, determine that there must be a Creator who made all things. What if their heart yearns toward that Creator? What if they even pray to Him, even not knowing Who He is. And after such a life, the person dies, but the soul does not die. It encounters spiritual beings.

Can Christ then make Himself known? Can that man's soul meet Christ, and rejoice that the object of its lifelong devotion, prayer, and longing is now made manifest?

God judges. I want to make that clear. But while I am unwilling to say what God will do, are you willing to say that God CANNOT forgive and receive such a person, simply on the basis that he never had opportunity to know the fullness of the Gospel while living in his body? Can God not show mercy on whoever He wishes to show mercy?

Of course, this is a bit of an extreme example. I did it to make a point, but I don't doubt that in human history there have been such ones. How many I cannot say. But many things are part of man - the law is written in our hearts, we tend to have a sense of eternity, we seek to worship something outside ourselves, the heavens and earth do declare something of the glory of God. So all of this is possible - much of it is explicit in Scripture.

JM said:

What is this love that earns salvation?

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Salvation is not earned, it's a gift for those who yearn for and seek it with their whole being (Matthew 7:7) (Luke 11:9). Therefore, Love does not "earn" salvation. Love is salvation:

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent" (John 17:3).

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love" (1 John 4:8).

"And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16).

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.…" (1 Corinthians 13:1-3).

JM said:

If the answer is, "I don't know, only God knows" how can you tell someone who does know the answer, that they are wrong for disagreeing with you, considering you already stated that "you don't know?"

Thanks,

jm

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We tell them what we do know. The Apostle Peter provides us with a strong template to consider in the Book of Acts (Acts 2:14-47). I won't paste that passage here as it is too lengthy.

Kylissa made a reference to the Epistle to the Romans, Chapter 2. For your convenience, JM, I'll past the passage here:

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Romans 2:13-16).

Since the Apostle makes reference to the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, I'll post Christ's own account of how those standing before Him will be judged, or rather, by what measure:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:31-46)

JM said:

Can someone love their way into heaven if they worship pagan deities?

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no, because heaven is not as much a place, as a spiritual condition (the Kingdom of God is inside you and not of this world). so for someone who sincerely (emphasis on that word) loves Truth, he loves Christ even if he doesn't know it. so when someone like that dies, as Romans 2 shows, they will see Christ as the object of their hearts desire and worship Him. they will know that He is what their soul longed for, even if they never knew it this side of judgment.

JM said:

Can someone deny the name of Christ but still love?

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no, the two go hand in hand. but some don't know Christ because we didn't reach them or because our witness is so poor, so if they have been taught any Christ it ain't the real one (think if someone only knew the FLDS "Christ"), but because they seek truth and love their neighbor, they do love Him. sometimes the noggin has to catch the heart.

JM said:

What is this love that earns salvation?

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same love that saved the thief on the Cross and preached to those in hades that died in the Flood. and it is not earned, it is given, and we must accept.

~Anastasia~ said:

No one is saved apart from Christ. Ever.

However, how do you read Romans 2? Is every person who was ever born on earth who did not hear the Gospel damned to eternal hell, when through no fault of their own, they did not hear it? It may not have been preached in their country until centuries after they died.

I understand the reticence. And, God forgive me, I will try to offer a scenario. I hope I do not offend. And at the same time, we are very cautious not to intrude into the matters of God.

What if a person was born, in a land and time without the Gospel. But in their heart (on which God has written His laws) they recognize good and evil. And they make every effort to embrace and cultivate the good in themselves, and to do good to others. And what if they sit outside night after night, contemplating the stars, and day after day view the beautiful intricacies of God's creation, and from this, determine that there must be a Creator who made all things. What if their heart yearns toward that Creator? What if they even pray to Him, even not knowing Who He is. And after such a life, the person dies, but the soul does not die. It encounters spiritual beings.

Can Christ then make Himself known? Can that man's soul meet Christ, and rejoice that the object of its lifelong devotion, prayer, and longing is now made manifest?

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I'm assuming you believe saving faith in Christ is salvation.

With your above scenario you give to much to man. Don't you think God could take care of making contact?

God judges. I want to make that clear. But while I am unwilling to say what God will do, are you willing to say that God CANNOT forgive and receive such a person, simply on the basis that he never had opportunity to know the fullness of the Gospel while living in his body? Can God not show mercy on whoever He wishes to show mercy?

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God cannot go against His own word.

Of course, this is a bit of an extreme example. I did it to make a point, but I don't doubt that in human history there have been such ones. How many I cannot say. But many things are part of man - the law is written in our hearts, we tend to have a sense of eternity, we seek to worship something outside ourselves, the heavens and earth do declare something of the glory of God. So all of this is possible - much of it is explicit in Scripture.

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You cannot say how many, but can you mention just one?

ArmyMatt said:

so for someone who sincerely (emphasis on that word) loves Truth, he loves Christ even if he doesn't know it. so when someone like that dies, as Romans 2 shows, they will see Christ as the object of their hearts desire and worship Him. they will know that He is what their soul longed for, even if they never knew it this side of judgment.

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That sounds nice but I challenge you to prove this in Romans 2.

Lord have mercy

truefiction1 said:

Lord have mercy

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Amen!

Foghorn said:

That sounds nice but I challenge you to prove this in Romans 2.

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Verses 12-16

ArmyMatt said: ↑
so for someone who sincerely (emphasis on that word) loves Truth, he loves Christ even if he doesn't know it. so when someone like that dies, as Romans 2 shows, they will see Christ as the object of their hearts desire and worship Him. they will know that He is what their soul longed for, even if they never knew it this side of judgment.

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Foghorn said:

That sounds nice but I challenge you to prove this in Romans 2.

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ArmyMatt said:Verses 12-16

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Ok, lets have a look. Romans 2:12-16
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

IMO, to make this work for your statement you would have to add into it, because it does not support your theory whatsoever. Paul seems to be speaking of the false Jews, who hid their wickedness under the cloak of professing the Law (Consider v 12). God will judge these secrets of men through Jesus Christ at the last day (v16).

Again, this does not support you case in the least, I hope you will reconsider.

Scripture does not teach anywhere after people die they then may realize they loved God and longed for Him. After death, it's to late, it's over.

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Foghorn said:

Ok, lets have a look. Romans 2:12-16
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

IMO, to make this work for your statement you would have to add into it, because it does not support your theory whatsoever. Paul seems to be speaking of the false Jews, who hid their wickedness under the cloak of professing the Law (Consider v 12). God will judge these secrets of men through Jesus Christ at the last day (v16).

Again, this does not support you case in the least, I hope you will reconsider.

Scripture does not teach anywhere after people die they then may realize they loved God and longed for Him. After death, it's to late, it's over.

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

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Not after they die will they realize they love God. These already before death love God, having lived Godly lives. That is what the Apostle Paul means. Knowledge of God, or of Christ, is not merely cognitive. As a matter of fact, it is not possible to know God at all by means of human cognitive faculties. True knowledge of God is experiential. One cannot know God unless one is, by grace, as God is by nature. So, "it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers".

truefiction1 said:

Not after they die will they realize they love God. These already before death love God, having lived Godly lives. That is what the Apostle Paul means. Knowledge of God, or of Christ, is not merely cognitive. As a matter of fact, it is not possible to know God at all by means of human cognitive faculties. True knowledge of God is experiential. One cannot know God unless one is, by grace, as God is by nature. So, "it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers".

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This is a different argument. Go back and read what we were talking about.

Foghorn said:

IMO, to make this work for your statement you would have to add into it, because it does not support your theory whatsoever. Paul seems to be speaking of the false Jews, who hid their wickedness under the cloak of professing the Law (Consider v 12). God will judge these secrets of men through Jesus Christ at the last day (v16).

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well, I don't care about your opinion or what St Paul seems to be saying unless you have some hard evidence to back it up. St Paul brings up Gentiles who lived apart from the Law. he is not only speaking to lapsed Jews.

Foghorn said:

Again, this does not support you case in the least, I hope you will reconsider.

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yeah it does, it simply does not support your interpretation.

Foghorn said:

Scripture does not teach anywhere after people die they then may realize they loved God and longed for Him. After death, it's to late, it's over.

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actually, Christ preached to those that died in the Flood. but aside from that, I want to see where Scripture clearly denies what you are denying.

Foghorn said:

This is a different argument. Go back and read what we were talking about.

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Not at all. I offered a doorway to the key to understanding and accepting Army Matt's truthful interpretation of Roman's 2:12-16, an interpretation that is grounded in the Spiritual experience of Orthodox Christianity since the founding of the Church at Pentecost. It would appear that you're not prepared to take that door at this time.

ArmyMatt said:

well, I don't care about your opinion or what St Paul seems to be saying unless you have some hard evidence to back it up. St Paul brings up Gentiles who lived apart from the Law. he is not only speaking to lapsed Jews.

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well, it's obvious.

yeah it does, it simply does not support your interpretation.

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In your opinion.

actually, Christ preached to those that died in the Flood.

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Ok, show me where scripture teaches this.

but aside from that, I want to see where Scripture clearly denies what you are denying.

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It simply does not support your theory.

truefiction1 said:

Not at all. I offered a doorway to the key to understanding and accepting Army Matt's truthful interpretation of Roman's 2:12-16,

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I decided not to take it because scripture does not support it.

an interpretation that is grounded in the Spiritual experience of Orthodox Christianity

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That's fine and obviously one way your off course.

since the founding of the Church at Pentecost.

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In your opinion.

It would appear that you're not prepared to take that door at this time.

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Unless scripture supports it, I'd rather not.

But hey, thanks anyway.

Foghorn said:

I decided not to take it because scripture does not support it.
Unless scripture supports it, I'd rather not.

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A blinded mind and a vail upon the heart usually ensures that Scripture does not support the Truth to those whose impurity of heart and lack of illumination make it so. That is where the Church comes in, where we begin by repenting of our arrogance and deceptive self-esteem and all varieties of sin by keeping unceasing vigilance over our hearts, using all of the tools of the Orthodox spiritual life. When we choose to undertake these struggles in search of God's righteousness, the Holy Spirit aids us in the purifying of our hearts, until such a time that our purity is sufficient to allow us to behold the vision of God's unspeakable light, which illumines our minds so that we perceive ever deepening meaning and understanding of His Word. This path leads to our perfection in God's holiness, which is never exhausted because of God's infinite goodness. Scripture, at every turn, points to this Way as true. Are you able to see that it does?

(2 Corinthians 3:14-18)

truefiction1 said:

A blinded mind and a vail upon the heart usually ensures that Scripture does not support the Truth to those whose impurity of heart and lack of illumination make it so. That is where the Church comes in, where we begin by repenting of our arrogance and deceptive self-esteem and all varieties of sin by keeping unceasing vigilance over our hearts, using all of the tools of the Orthodox spiritual life. When we choose to undertake these struggles in search of God's righteousness, the Holy Spirit aids us in the purifying of our hearts, until such a time that our purity is sufficient to allow us to behold the vision of God's unspeakable light, which illumines our minds so that we perceive ever deepening meaning and understanding of His Word. This path leads to our perfection in God's holiness, which is never exhausted because of God's infinite goodness. Scripture, at every turn, points to this Way as true. Are you able to see that it does?

(2 Corinthians 3:14-18)

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I believe scripture is our final authority. If a church teaches otherwise, we need to find another.