What is the Good News to a Secular World?

[timothyu]

No, you are not. I am a Catholic . I admit that my own Church has warts and so do I. But you have shown no indication that you or your Church (if you have one) has any fault or has ever given into the governance of man.

Again I'm not talking about particular churches. That is not what Christianity is about. I talk the direction of the religion.

Did you ever hear of Francis of Assisi? He gave up EVERYTHING! He even gave up the clothes off his back.

Of course.. he rejected the worldly church and followed the ways of the Kingdom. Narrow path, not the wide one of a worldly institution. I said there were two sides.

How can you submit to the governance of man and then submit to the governance of God

Submitting is not the same as partaking in. We submit to worldly government and the government of God. I do not participate in the government over fellow man (like the politically or financially minded and their minions) but I do participate in the ways of the Kingdom.

Now, although the Catholic Church considers Francis and Therese as saints, the Church does not tell the rest of us that we must live like this.

Of course not or they would expose themselves as hypocrites. Simply why the religion set aside the Kingdom so it could "have it both ways". But there will always be those within who follow Kingdom content with servitude rather than self serving , not world of man whose ways we were told to repent of, change our ways. We are all capable of living our rural or urban lives in the way of the Kingdom by simply loving all as self.. you know like Francis or Theresa.

 

[packermann]

Again I'm not talking about particular churches. That is not what Christianity is about. I talk the direction of the religion.

You are trying to having it both ways. I mentioned that Francis was canonized a saint but do not tell us to like this. You responded "Of course not or they would expose themselves as hypocrites." What do you mean by "they"? It could not mean Christianity because there is no Protestant church that has canonized saints. So you cannot mean any other religion but the Catholic faith.

Submitting is not the same as partaking in. We submit to worldly government and the government of God. I do not participate in the government over fellow man (like the politically or financially minded and their minions) but I do participate in the ways of the Kingdom.

Now who is playing with words.

Of course not or they would expose themselves as hypocrites. Simply why the religion set aside the Kingdom so it could "have it both ways". But there will always be those within who follow Kingdom content with servitude rather than self serving , not world of man whose ways we were told to repent of, change our ways. We are all capable of living our rural or urban lives in the way of the Kingdom by simply loving all as self.. you know like Francis or Theresa.

Are you living like Francis or Theresa? They did not submit or participate in the world. Have you renounced the world as they did? Before you condemn others for not renouncing everything like Jesus, Francis, and Theresa did, you better check to see if you are doing it. Before you preach to us how simple it is, you should see if you are doing it. Are you a celibate? Do you have your own home? Do you have a job? None of these people submitted or participated in these things. So would you admit that you are a hypocrite?

 

[timothyu]

You are trying to having it both ways. I mentioned that Francis was canonized a saint but do not tell us to like this. You responded "Of course not or they would expose themselves as hypocrites." What do you mean by "they"? It could not mean Christianity because there is no Protestant church that has canonized saints. So you cannot mean any other religion but the Catholic faith.

You gave a specific example, I responded to it. But if all of man is corrupt, why would you think even your church would be exempt? They all are corrupted by man's influence over the truth of God.

. Before you preach to us how simple it is, you should see if you are doing it. Are you a celibate? Do you have your own home? Do you have a job? None of these people submitted or participated in these things. So would you admit that you are a hypocrite?

Again that is worldly thinking. What Jesus (and God throughout the Bible) commanded us to do was put the will of the Father before our own and love all as self. Simple. The foundation of Francis' and Theresa's life. The stipulations you threw in have nothing to do with it as Jesus' two commandments can be easily lived within your parameters without denial. Servitude is giving, not giving up in order to get.

 

[packermann]

You gave a specific example, I responded to it. But if all of man is corrupt, why would you think even your church would be exempt? They all are corrupted by man's influence over the truth of God.

As I said before, I admit there is corruption in my Church. And I admit there is corruption in me. But I have not read anything of your admission that you are also corrupt and the church you go to (if one exists).

Again that is worldly thinking. What Jesus (and God throughout the Bible) commanded us to do was put the will of the Father before our own and love all as self. Simple. The foundation of Francis' and Theresa's life. The stipulations you threw in have nothing to do with it as Jesus' two commandments can be easily lived within your parameters without denial. Servitude is giving, not giving up in order to get.

"Not giving up in order to get" is a matter of the heart. Unless I am God, I cannot know what is in one's heart. All I can see outwardly that a person is giving up a lot for the Lord. Whether he is sincerely putting God's will before his own or that he is just doing it to get something out of it is something only God can just.

Not only that, but the Bible says that anyone who says he has not sin has made God a liar. All have sinned. So His two greatest commandments are not easily live. Loving God with your WHOLE heart, your WHOLE mind, and your WHOLE soul is easy???? You think you think that loving your neighbor as yourself is easy???? Jesus made it clear that these are just difficult. They are impossible! Jesus said "Apart from Me you can doing!" It is not that we can only do without Christ. We can do nothing! NOTHING! So how can it be easy? But even abiding in Christ it still not easy! Jesus said that we must STRIVE to enter the narrow gate of heaven.

You think that it is easy to love you enemies? You think it is easy to pray for them? The hardest thing for me to do was to pray for my ex-fiancee who left me at the altar after I was kicked out of the pastorate for her. Do you think that was easy? Do you think that it is easy to turn the other cheek when someone insults you, as in this forum? Sometimes I am able to do that, but sometimes I fail. Do you think that it is easy to pick up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Christ is easy? That is what it means to submit to the governance of God and to love all as self.

Even though I admit that the Catholic Church, as with all other churches, have some corruption, I will not condemn them. There but by the grace of God go I, and even with the grace of God I still fall short to God's expectations of me. So how can I judge them? I know how hard it is to strive through the narrow gate.

Also, I am not saying that the Catholic Church, and other institutional churches, are totally corrupt. There is tremendous good in these churches and much charity. I was a chaplain in the inner city, and the ones who help the most downtrodden are these institutional churches. Francis and Theresa would not remained Catholic all their lives if they did not see the good in that Church.

 

[timothyu]

Through all your trials and tribulations, if you never lost sight of God, then you have come out on top of it all. The world has not defeated you. That is more important for all of us than defending any church denomination.