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What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

Subduction Zone

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One other point to my response to your comment to clarify. When I responded, I was referring to non-life creating life. Basically chemical evolution and spontaneous generation. It is infinitely more complex to generate life from completely non-living matter than from existing life. As I said, I suspect humans (complex living entities) will create life in the lab at some point. This, however, is far different than non-life creating life. Amino acids were easily created in the lab in the 1950's but even here it was done by intelligent agents, constraining the conditions, and controlling the conditions such as: the amount of methane, and other gases; controlling concentrations, heat, preventing reverse reactions etc. About the only way I could see determining this process is possible is finding worlds that are likely like primitive earth and observing whether they can create amino acids, amino acid chains etc. If we could do this to a statistically significant degree, then a case could be made for abiogenesis.
Oh my!! You missed the point of the Miller-Urey experiment completely. What they showed is that natural processes that existed at that time could have made amino acids. It was not a case of "man making amino acids". You pretty much disqualify yourself from debating this topic when you demonstrate that you such a low level of understanding.
 
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Subduction Zone

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The only one I am aware of is a.Dr. K Wise.
You forgot about Steve Austin:

51j4xp3-nbL._SY445_.jpg


Rats, wrong Steve.

Stone Cold Steve Austin?

WWE-Stone-Cold-Steve-Austin-Vest.jpg


Rats!! Still the wrong Steve Austin.
b53aa165c42fdd5323aef42846dd3fac.jpg


That's the one! Unfortunately he utterly fails in the honesty department.
 
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Astrid

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One other point to my response to your comment to clarify. When I responded, I was referring to non-life creating life. Basically chemical evolution and spontaneous generation. It is infinitely more complex to generate life from completely non-living matter than from existing life. As I said, I suspect humans (complex living entities) will create life in the lab at some point. This, however, is far different than non-life creating life. Amino acids were easily created in the lab in the 1950's but even here it was done by intelligent agents, constraining the conditions, and controlling the conditions such as: the amount of methane, and other gases; controlling concentrations, heat, preventing reverse reactions etc. About the only way I could see determining this process is possible is finding worlds that are likely like primitive earth and observing whether they can create amino acids, amino acid chains etc. If we could do this to a statistically significant degree, then a case could be made for abiogenesis.

Kind of roundabout way to say we don't
have a time machine.
Of course nobody can say for sure how it
happened, however obvious it is that it did
happen.
Are you an organic chemist?
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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If someone is going to mess with my eyes with sharp pointy instruments I would prefer her not to have a track record of rejecting basic science. I wouldn't want her removing a mote from my eye.
That, of course, is your prerogative.
 
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Astrid

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You forgot about Steve Austin:

51j4xp3-nbL._SY445_.jpg


Rats, wrong Steve.

Stone Cold Steve Austin?

WWE-Stone-Cold-Steve-Austin-Vest.jpg


Rats!! Still the wrong Steve Austin.
b53aa165c42fdd5323aef42846dd3fac.jpg


That's the one! Unfortunately he utterly fails in the honesty department.

I fail the cultural reference test.
 
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Bertrand Russell White

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Oh my!! You missed the point of the Miller-Urey experiment completely. What they showed is that natural processes that existed at that time could have made amino acids. It was not a case of "man making amino acids". You pretty much disqualify yourself from debating this topic when you demonstrate that you such a low level of understanding.

Wrong! Have you ever done the Urey-Miller experiment? I have, so I know about it first hand. If you have only read about it in a book you probably don't understand the subtleties of the experiment. All the experiment shows really is that under the controlled conditions imposed by intelligent agents, it is possible to create amino acids with raw chemicals. This is a far cry from demonstrating that "...natural processes that existed at the time could have made amino acids". It is in no way a valid and adequate simulation, as interesting as the experiment was. The constraining variables heat, spark chamber, chemicals and chemical concentrations, volumes of the beakers etc. are all intelligently imposed. In order to properly simulate a real early earth environment you would have to know what such an environment was, which is currently impossible (unless we can learn how to go back in time or get to planets that are currently evolving in this way and you know they are like an early earth). However, let's say we can figure out what a reasonable environment might have been like. Now you have to work out the likely constraining conditions such as real discharge, real concentrations of chemicals, what actually were the chemicals, real constraining volumes and other conditions - this is a non-trivial set of activities. A properly designed experiment that could rationally count as anything reasonably resembling an early earth simulation would require much more than the simple little experiment done by Urey and Miller. There is also the problem of reverse reactions, primitive forces that could disrupt the created amino acids and their chains etc. In the original experiment, the amino acids were removed as created. In real life this wouldn't happen because everything is exposed to the hostile environment. Also, studies since the experiment have shown that the simple simulation they performed does not simulate an early earth at several points anyway. If their simulation is faulty or incomplete (as it seems), it doesn't really simulate what it is trying to simulate so it doesn't show that natural processes existed at the time made amino acids.

Also, your comment about man not making amino acids is self contradictory logically. You say - It was not a case of "man making amino acids". Lets look at what you said and the evidence for a minute:

Urey and Miller are both men
An experiment was done by them that made amino acids
Therefore men made amino acids (or by your logic "Therefore men did not make amino acids")

What part of the above logical structure don't you understand? Before you start name calling, perhaps you should get your basic first year university logic correct. You have not in the least demonstrated that I have a low level of understanding of this experiment and am therefore disqualified (and by the way, my primarily discussion wasn't focused on the details of the Urey - Miller experiment or its implications or its main purpose anyway, as was obvious. You created a straw man to knock down). On the other hand, I have clearly demonstrated that your statement above is illogical (so are you qualified to say anything on this subject???)

What their experiment showed was that science had some hope that natural processes might be possible to create amino acids on an early earth (but most scientists already believed this was the case anyway). The experiment was a very small step that showed that humans were able to figure out how to create amino acids by ordering equipment and materials in a somewhat random way (and perhaps somewhat simulating an early earth) that was possible a first approximation to natural processes on a primitive earth. It is a necessary condition to show that amino acids could be created by natural processes (as Urey - Miller tried to do) but not sufficient (for the reasons I've said above and elsewhere). Jumping to the conclusion that this one experiment shows that natural processes can/may cause amino acids is just confirmation bias of already expected outcomes. I grant it is a step in the right direction (as it is an attempt to do a realistic simulation showing that natural processes could create amino acids), but in no convincing way does it show natural processes are likely or even possible to create amino acids. These are very fine distinctions but important for not jumping to conclusions and no science body has ever accepted such important conclusions solely on the basis of one experiment. From my reading the history of this experiment and given the times 1950's, it is understandable and excusable that they jumped to unwarranted conclusions about how relevant and valid their experiment was regarding only natural processes and materials causing amino acids (this was exciting stuff in the 1950's in American science). Good science is conservative and very careful, it doesn't jump to conclusions on the results of one experiment.

BTW, I believe that natural processes did create amino acids (based on evidence since) but the Urey-Miller experiment does not adequately demonstrate this - just points in the right direction. Experiments and knowledge since have developed much better simulations and models. They have moved us towards showing that amino acids could be created by natural processes. However, other research has shown reducing agents that destroy amino acids. Meteors have been shown to contain amino acids. Although, the research to date can't establish beyond a reasonable doubt that natural processes caused amino acids and other organic materials on a primitive earth to be produced and survive over time, it does point strongly in that direction.

As I've said elsewhere, the only way really, to establish natural processes being able to create amino acids for sure would be to go to early evolving planets like a primitive earth and observe amino acids in formation. Hopefully this will be possible some day for amino acids as well as other organic chemical production naturally. Any skeptical person worth his/her/its salt doesn't just jump on the bandwagon if one experiment to confirm their ideas and worldview. This is just confirmation bias.
 
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tas8831

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tas8831

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Wrong! Have you ever done the Urey-Miller experiment? I have, so I know about it first hand. If you have only read about it in a book you probably don't understand the subtleties of the experiment. All the experiment shows really is that under the controlled conditions imposed by intelligent agents, it is possible to create amino acids with raw chemicals.
Love those creationist buzz-phrases - why not just come right out and say "since the experiments were done in a building designed by men, it is proof of ID!" and be done with it?

I have a hard time believing you've done such experiments, but sure, whatever.


Who came up with the idea of the reducing atmosphere?

Miller: Oparin, a Russian scientist, began the modern idea of the origin of life when he published a pamphlet in 1924. His idea was called the heterotrophic hypothesis: that the first organisms were heterotrophic, meaning they got their organic material from the environment, rather than having to make it, like blue-green algae. This was an important idea. Oparin also suggested that the less biosynthesis there is, the easier it is to form a living organism. Then he proposed the idea of the reducing atmosphere where you might make organic compounds.

He also proposed that the first organisms were coacervates, a special type of colloid. Nobody takes that last part very seriously anymore, but in 1936, this was reasonable since DNA was not known to be the genetic material..

In 1951, unaware of Oparin's work, Harold Urey came to the same conclusion about the reducing atmosphere. He knew enough chemistry and biology to figure that you might get the building blocks of life under these conditions.

Tell us about the famous electrical discharge experiment.

Miller: The experiments were done in Urey's lab when I was a graduate student. Urey gave a lecture in October of 1951 when I first arrived at Chicago and suggested that someone do these experiments. So I went to him and said, "I'd like to do those experiments". The first thing he tried to do was talk me out of it. Then he realized I was determined. He said the problem was that it was really a very risky experiment and probably wouldn't work, and he was responsible that I get a degree in three years or so. So we agreed to give it six months or a year. If it worked out fine, if not, on to something else. As it turned out I got some results in a matter of weeks.

from Exobiology.
 
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tas8831

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How would you know.. have you visited their laboratories? Have you seen their experiments?
Or are you just talking through your hat?
Their laboratories? You mean their green screen laboratories?

Or do you mean great experiments like those by Jeff Tomkins?

I once asked Jeff via CMI when he planned to do his amazing pairwise comparisons between two random humans using the same parameters he had used when comparing chimp and human, and he replied that he had no need to. Because you see the parameters he had used in his BLASTn-based comparisons were virtually guaranteed to produce % similarities well below those reported by legitimate scientists, and he knew that comparing two random humans that same way would indicate that humans cannot be of the 'same kind' based on his parameters.
 
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Astrid

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Wrong! Have you ever done the Urey-Miller experiment? I have, so I know about it first hand. If you have only read about it in a book you probably don't understand the subtleties of the experiment. All the experiment shows really is that under the controlled conditions imposed by intelligent agents, it is possible to create amino acids with raw chemicals. This is a far cry from demonstrating that "...natural processes that existed at the time could have made amino acids". It is in no way a valid and adequate simulation, as interesting as the experiment was. The constraining variables heat, spark chamber, chemicals and chemical concentrations, volumes of the beakers etc. are all intelligently imposed. In order to properly simulate a real early earth environment you would have to know what such an environment was, which is currently impossible (unless we can learn how to go back in time or get to planets that are currently evolving in this way and you know they are like an early earth). However, let's say we can figure out what a reasonable environment might have been like. Now you have to work out the likely constraining conditions such as real discharge, real concentrations of chemicals, what actually were the chemicals, real constraining volumes and other conditions - this is a non-trivial set of activities. A properly designed experiment that could rationally count as anything reasonably resembling an early earth simulation would require much more than the simple little experiment done by Urey and Miller. There is also the problem of reverse reactions, primitive forces that could disrupt the created amino acids and their chains etc. In the original experiment, the amino acids were removed as created. In real life this wouldn't happen because everything is exposed to the hostile environment. Also, studies since the experiment have shown that the simple simulation they performed does not simulate an early earth at several points anyway. If their simulation is faulty or incomplete (as it seems), it doesn't really simulate what it is trying to simulate so it doesn't show that natural processes existed at the time made amino acids.

Also, your comment about man not making amino acids is self contradictory logically. You say - It was not a case of "man making amino acids". Lets look at what you said and the evidence for a minute:

Urey and Miller are both men
An experiment was done by them that made amino acids
Therefore men made amino acids (or by your logic "Therefore men did not make amino acids")

What part of the above logical structure don't you understand? Before you start name calling, perhaps you should get your basic first year university logic correct. You have not in the least demonstrated that I have a low level of understanding of this experiment and am therefore disqualified (and by the way, my primarily discussion wasn't focused on the details of the Urey - Miller experiment or its implications or its main purpose anyway, as was obvious. You created a straw man to knock down). On the other hand, I have clearly demonstrated that your statement above is illogical (so are you qualified to say anything on this subject???)

What their experiment showed was that science had some hope that natural processes might be possible to create amino acids on an early earth (but most scientists already believed this was the case anyway). The experiment was a very small step that showed that humans were able to figure out how to create amino acids by ordering equipment and materials in a somewhat random way (and perhaps somewhat simulating an early earth) that was possible a first approximation to natural processes on a primitive earth. It is a necessary condition to show that amino acids could be created by natural processes (as Urey - Miller tried to do) but not sufficient (for the reasons I've said above and elsewhere). Jumping to the conclusion that this one experiment shows that natural processes can/may cause amino acids is just confirmation bias of already expected outcomes. I grant it is a step in the right direction (as it is an attempt to do a realistic simulation showing that natural processes could create amino acids), but in no convincing way does it show natural processes are likely or even possible to create amino acids. These are very fine distinctions but important for not jumping to conclusions and no science body has ever accepted such important conclusions solely on the basis of one experiment. From my reading the history of this experiment and given the times 1950's, it is understandable and excusable that they jumped to unwarranted conclusions about how relevant and valid their experiment was regarding only natural processes and materials causing amino acids (this was exciting stuff in the 1950's in American science). Good science is conservative and very careful, it doesn't jump to conclusions on the results of one experiment.

BTW, I believe that natural processes did create amino acids (based on evidence since) but the Urey-Miller experiment does not adequately demonstrate this - just points in the right direction. Experiments and knowledge since have developed much better simulations and models. They have moved us towards showing that amino acids could be created by natural processes. However, other research has shown reducing agents that destroy amino acids. Meteors have been shown to contain amino acids. Although, the research to date can't establish beyond a reasonable doubt that natural processes caused amino acids and other organic materials on a primitive earth to be produced and survive over time, it does point strongly in that direction.

As I've said elsewhere, the only way really, to establish natural processes being able to create amino acids for sure would be to go to early evolving planets like a primitive earth and observe amino acids in formation. Hopefully this will be possible some day for amino acids as well as other organic chemical production naturally. Any skeptical person worth his/her/its salt doesn't just jump on the bandwagon if one experiment to confirm their ideas and worldview. This is just confirmation bias.

What a long way to say we dont have time
machines and space ships.

As for your " belief" about amino acids
forming apart from human intervention.
they've been detected in space.

Do you have some sort of point to make?
.
 
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Bertrand Russell White

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Kind of roundabout way to say we don't
have a time machine.
Of course nobody can say for sure how it
happened, however obvious it is that it did
happen.
Are you an organic chemist?

You seem to be appealing to common sense ... "however obvious it is that it did happen". This is an appeal to a logical fallacy. If you are a scientist you should know better.

If no one can say for sure, since it not currently possible, then the best we can say is that natural processes seem likely to cause abiogenesis based on a combinations of man made scenarios and man made experiments. The only way to establish what you are trying to establish is to find a primitive earth like planet, set up the necessary controls and then study the formation of organic materials.

I have no doubt that natural processes created organic materials and probably life as well. However, this is not the same as demonstrating it empirically. We can develop lots of stories of how we think it is happened and then confirm the science in the lab but this still doesn't establish the science in the same way as controlling for known variables and then conducting experiments in the manner that non-historical science does. There is no way to know whether we have a good idea of what we are studying. I can accept historical science as a necessary condition for arguing a theory but not a sufficient condition.
 
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Astrid

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Love those creationist buzz-phrases - why not just come right out and say "since the experiments were done in a building designed by men, it is proof of ID!" a\nd be done with it?

I have a hard time believing you've done such experiments, but sure, whatever.

Not the first internet warrior to pretend
to be a scientist.
 
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Bertrand Russell White

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What a long way to say we dont have time
machines and space ships.

As for your " belief" about amino acids
forming apart from human intervention.
they've been detected in space.

Do you have some sort of point to make?
.

Now you are putting words in my mouth - I never said that amino acids couldn't form apart from human interaction or that they haven't been found anywhere. I know they have been found in space. However, finding them in space does not establish that they were created on a primitive earth - as likely as that now seems.
 
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tas8831

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Let me give a very simple example of how hard this is. When I was in grade X, I decided to try to determine why life has primarily L-form amino acids. If one take mixtures of gases and chemicals and heat them you get mixtures of all the amino acids found in all life that make up proteins and our DNA. However, this mixture of amino acids has both Left hand or L-form and Right hand or D-form amino acids (the D and L forms are exactly the same atoms but in mirror images to one another). However, as I say, life only has the L-form type. I tried to design an experiment to show how the L-form could have come to dominate over D. My hypothesis was that early rocks may have provided a selective advantage for L-forms. I did some simple experiments that were inconclusive.

Interesting. It is almost as if you read some of Robert Hazen's work and are pretending to have come up with it in high school. Impressive. Not really.
 
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tas8831

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Amino acids were easily created in the lab in the 1950's but even here it was done by intelligent agents, constraining the conditions, and controlling the conditions such as: the amount of methane, and other gases; controlling concentrations, heat, preventing reverse reactions etc. About the only way I could see determining this process is possible is finding worlds that are likely like primitive earth and observing whether they can create amino acids, amino acid chains etc. If we could do this to a statistically significant degree, then a case could be made for abiogenesis.
Ah yes, I see your scientific insights are beyond reproach and most definitely premised on having been engaged in scientific research for a long - and certainly productive - time.
Please tell us more about how you in essence replicated the uncontrolled natural conditions in which your hypothesized chemical reactions and the like took place.
 
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