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What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

nolidad

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It was not 'soft tissue' in the sense that you appear to be using that term. And Mary Schweitzer also found the preservation method. There is nothing that goes against science there. It appears that you are getting your arguments from known lying sources. That does not work with people that have read valid sources on the material.

Well I guess you think Schweitzer herself is a liar. I saw it on 60 minutes and read a paper by her found on a google search.

Wrong, try again. And now it appears that you are bearing false witness against your neighbor.

Well your avatar says you are an atheist so that is enough evidence I need.

Sorry, but that is not "evidence". You can confirm that claim yourself. What reasonable test based upon their ideas could refute their ideas? A strawman version of evolution being involved is an admission on your part that they have no evidence.

Perhaps you should take some time to learn what is and what is not evidence.

And that shows your ignorance of their research. If you want to know, most of them would respond to a query from you. Or is this just blowing methane in an argument?

ICR.org look up teh papers and see teh research. Then with a little more investigative work you can find the peer boards used to submit their work to and find the tests used to refute some hypotheses made. They are real scientists. They just start with a different presuppositional bias than you .
 
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pitabread

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ICR.org look up teh papers and see teh research. Then with a little more investigative work you can find the peer boards used to submit their work to and find the tests used to refute some hypotheses made. They are real scientists. They just start with a different presuppositional bias than you .

Most of us on this forum are well familiar with the Institute for Creation Research (among other creationist organizations).

We're also familiar with why they don't do real science. It's not even just a case of presuppositional bias; it's that they start with their conclusions and no contradictory results can change their mind: Foundational Principles

This is especially evident when you read any of their purported research (e.g. things like the RATE project.)
 
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Ophiolite

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Studying the actual DNA to determine if mutations occurred on the macro scale is known as empirical science.
You may have a point. Empirical science is what allows me to read your thoughts on evolution, so maybe it isn't such a good thing after all.
/irony.
 
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Shemjaza

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And never will be! all experiments so far have met with abject failure. Principle of cause and effect plays a big role here. Teh effect cannot be greater than the thing that caused it! IOW non-life cannot beget life!
The first point is false, even the original abiogenesis experiments demonstrated that amino acids, themselves much more complicated than the base chemicals, can form naturally in presence of energy.

Polymerisation is a well known event in organic chemistry, it just needs a chemical catalyst, no life or designer necessary.

Your idiom about "effect cannot be greater than the thing that caused it" isn't true... it also leaves you open to claims of special pleading when it comes to how you explain where God came from.

BUT! According to evolutionary thought- it all began when that first non-life became life! Maybe they have changed their guesses (hypotheses) and say multiple differing life forms all began simultaneously but otherwise it all began with that first microbe who is poppa and momma to all life here!

We don't know, that was my point. But I also pointed out that while I guess from a logical point there much a singular first celled organism, there might be a whole host of life like chemical processes that led the very earliest life.

That is what I said, just more colloquially.

Not really, your post was unclear to the point of falsehood.

And I don't think that any evolutionist has yet come up with a feasible hypothesis explain the Cambrian explosion of life or produce the evidence to give their hypothesis any real validity.

Just to clarify, the plant animal divide and the Cambrian explosion are probably billions of years apart.

The Cambrian explosion is easy to explain. Complex life lived before hand, but the environmental changes that led to the Cambrian explosion had allowed for the development of hard parts like bones and shells.

Bones/shells are a massive advantage and opened up a whole host of new ecological niches, this in turn led to rapid speciation.

We have evidence of some more complicated life before the explosion, but it is limited for very logical reasons.

Trivially?

We see horizontal changes but no vertical changes. We have never observed the process of say that land mammal turn to whale! NOr has evolutionist shown how th emutative process worked to change a land mammal to whale. They just take some fossils and fill in the missing parts with teh help of paleo-artists to show how it supposedly evolved! I know it is more complicated than that- but when you boil it all down- that is what they do! Because they believe evolution is a fact!

When discussing a topic it helps to learn what the terms mean first.

Vertical gene transfer describes transmission of genetic material from parent to child and horizontal gene transfer describes transmission of genetic material between other individual without reproduction.

We have the genetic remnants in whale DNA, we have fossils of animals that are clearly cetaceans from their bone/skull structure but are smaller land animals.

And as evidence for the possibility of such a transition, every stage in between land and whale exists in other families so there are no unsurvivable transitions.

Ever seen a hippo? A seal? A manatee?

Finches change beak shape to adapt to food diets.
Subway rats no longer able to reproduce with outside rats etc.

Those are clearly all the tools needed for evolution to occur... what's the barrier to more changes building up with longer time, larger populations and differing pressures?

Horizontal means that it started as a rat and ended as a rat or bird or whatever.

Vertical is the macro hypothesis that says we started as a microbe and through a series of horizontal and vertical mutations we evolved over X millions of years to become man.

Please don't make up terms, it just causes confusion.

Micro evolution (still same species) and macro evolution (change in species) are exactly the same method, just over a longer time span with sufficient arbitrary change to cause a redefine or not allow reproduction.

Your sewer rat example is the first stage of speciation. Given the sewer and non sewer rats cannot reproduce any useful traits found in, or developing in one cannot spread to the other.

Well that is their educated guess (hypothesis.) But Australopithecus is just an ape. southern ape as it name says! but ini teh eons long evolution from ancestral ape to man there had to be a species that was equally ape as man so I named it homo-pithecus!
So it was a lie. Don't do that, it's beneath you.

If Australopithecus is "just an ape" and humans are "men", what's the difference? How do you clearly define a difference?

hominids2_small.jpg


Modern non human apes aren't bipedal and don't craft tools... but most of these guys did. There features would demonstrate them as non human, but still far more like a human than any chimp.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... Principle of cause and effect plays a big role here. Teh effect cannot be greater than the thing that caused it!
I've ignored a lot of pitifully ignorant nonsense here, but this was just the most wonderfully ludicrous and thoughtless soundbite!

In the real world, effects are often greater than their causes. Most technology depends on small causes having large effects - have you never heard of an 'amplifier' or a simple 'lever'?

The same effect is, sadly, true of many catastrophes - lethal avalanches, mudslides, infections, crashes, wildfires; and have you never heard of the 'Butterfly Effect' or the 'Straw that broke the camel's back', or the Bible study version of 'a kingdom lost for want of a nail'?
 
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essentialsaltes

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then I would suggest you place me on ignore so you don't have to bemoan such a troglodyte intellect.

It's not your intellect, but your knowledge that is deficient. It's pointless for you to argue against a cartoon version of evolution using non-facts.
 
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nolidad

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It's not your intellect, but your knowledge that is deficient. It's pointless for you to argue against a cartoon version of evolution using non-facts.

then I bid you a fond adieu!
 
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nolidad

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I've ignored a lot of pitifully ignorant nonsense here, but this was just the most wonderfully ludicrous and thoughtless soundbite!

In the real world, effects are often greater than their causes. Most technology depends on small causes having large effects - have you never heard of an 'amplifier' or a simple 'lever'?

The same effect is, sadly, true of many catastrophes - lethal avalanches, mudslides, infections, crashes, wildfires; and have you never heard of the 'Butterfly Effect' or the 'Straw that broke the camel's back', or the Bible study version of 'a kingdom lost for want of a nail'?

Those still follow the laws of sound and effect.

An "amplifier" is introduced and it will boost the signal withiin teh limits of its ability to amplify!

So show in nature what secondary cause allows for a greater effect that what caused it!

A lever will boost an ability to lift, but only within the bounds of its strength and limits of the person handling the lever- it is still aall part of cause and effect, all you did was add another factor to consider.

Example: A car gets 40 mpg @ 55mph. It is fully tuned and starts on a fully calm day on a 50 mile flat straight road. With no other factos added in that car will stall at 40 miles But if you add other factos like ramping downwared slopes it will increase the mileage but only to teh level the car can react to teh downward slop. One just simmply added in another source of energy (momentum) to teh equation. but teh car still will get only 40 miles for the gallon. It gets it further miles from another source.
 
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Ophiolite

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An "amplifier" is introduced and it will boost the signal withiin teh limits of its ability to amplify!

So show in nature what secondary cause allows for a greater effect that what caused it!
You answered your own question. The amplifier amplifies.
 
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nolidad

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Micro evolution (still same species) and macro evolution (change in species) are exactly the same method, just over a longer time span with sufficient arbitrary change to cause a redefine or not allow reproduction.

They are theorized as the same method-mutations preserved by natural selection. But we have no record of the genetic mutations that occurred to take a mere ape and over eons of time turn it into man!

I find it interesting that we are supposedly 98.8% identical to apes genetically and yet we can't use their skin like we do pig skin or their insulion like we do with cow and sheep.

If Australopithecus is "just an ape" and humans are "men", what's the difference? How do you clearly define a difference?
MOrphology
language
ability to build on knowledge
rational thought
among a few

We have the genetic remnants in whale DNA, we have fossils of animals that are clearly cetaceans from their bone/skull structure but are smaller land animals.

And as evidence for the possibility of such a transition, every stage in between land and whale exists in other families so there are no unsurvivable transitions.

Ever seen a hippo? A seal? A manatee?

So you are saying that mere similarity in bone structure is the deciding factor?

So you are saying that manatees and hippos were once upon a time long ago in a galxy far away hippos and manatees were transitional forms from that land animal and whales?
 
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Ophiolite

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So you are saying that manatees and hippos were once upon a time long ago in a galxy far away hippos and manatees were transitional forms from that land animal and whales?
Reading comprehension is not your strong suite, is it?

And as evidence for the possibility of such a transition, every stage in between land and whale exists in other families so there are no unsurvivable transitions.

land animal > hippo like animal > seal like animal > manatee like animal
 
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nolidad

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The first point is false, even the original abiogenesis experiments demonstrated that amino acids, themselves much more complicated than the base chemicals, can form naturally in presence of energy.

Polymerisation is a well known event in organic chemistry, it just needs a chemical catalyst, no life or designer necessary.

Your idiom about "effect cannot be greater than the thing that caused it" isn't true... it also leaves you open to claims of special pleading when it comes to how you explain where God came from.

Sorry but no cigar for you!

Yes experiments have doen some amaxzing things and produced amazing results!

But those experiments speak more to ID than naturalistic evolution! Also creating amino acids in and of itself is remarkable, but that is still a long way from producing life from non- life!

Cause and effect is a rule of nature that has not been disproved! Even if you add other variables to a thing- the effect or result cannot be greater than the various things that caused it.
I don't know the formulas for how to make an atomic bomb for how much of U235 or plutonium to add. But lets say 1 pound of plutonium makes a bomb of 100 kilotons. YOu will not get a greater release of energy unless you add other factors (like tritium) and even then the blast will not be greater than the total energy avsailable!

We don't know, that was my point. But I also pointed out that while I guess from a logical point there much a singular first celled organism, there might be a whole host of life like chemical processes that led the very earliest life.

And there might have been an ominpotent God who merely spoke everything into existence

Just to clarify, the plant animal divide and the Cambrian explosion are probably billions of years apart.

The Cambrian explosion is easy to explain. Complex life lived before hand, but the environmental changes that led to the Cambrian explosion had allowed for the development of hard parts like bones and shells.

Bones/shells are a massive advantage and opened up a whole host of new ecological niches, this in turn led to rapid speciation.

We have evidence of some more complicated life before the explosion, but it is limited for very logical reasons.

So yo believe in a modified form of punctuated equilibrium then? They call it teh Cambrian Explosion for a reason- all this complex life just appears in th efosil record. Without all teh transitions to support any kind of hypotheses.
 
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nolidad

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You may have a point. Empirical science is what allows me to read your thoughts on evolution, so maybe it isn't such a good thing after all.
/irony.

Don't go into late night mindreading- you would starve! ^_^
 
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nolidad

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Most of us on this forum are well familiar with the Institute for Creation Research (among other creationist organizations).

We're also familiar with why they don't do real science. It's not even just a case of presuppositional bias; it's that they start with their conclusions and no contradictory results can change their mind: Foundational Principles

This is especially evident when you read any of their purported research (e.g. things like the RATE project.)

I have read the rate project report as well as many technical papers.

YOu bigotry against them is noted.

It is still tiredly amusing how evolutionists declare that if a scientist is researching Divinve Creation- they can't possible be doing science.

This is so they don't have to get off their pontifical thrones, and refute their research!

They can just make ex-cathedra blatherings that they don't do real science and that is enough so say they!


Well I guess this aborts this conversation.

You have closed your mind to researching Creationism- so it is pointless to converse with you.

May God show you that you are not related to an ape one day so you can pray

"Our Father who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name"

Instead of
"our Father who art in the jungle, King Kong be thy name (irony)
 
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VirOptimus

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They are theorized as the same method-mutations preserved by natural selection. But we have no record of the genetic mutations that occurred to take a mere ape and over eons of time turn it into man!

I find it interesting that we are supposedly 98.8% identical to apes genetically and yet we can't use their skin like we do pig skin or their insulion like we do with cow and sheep.


MOrphology
language
ability to build on knowledge
rational thought
among a few



So you are saying that mere similarity in bone structure is the deciding factor?

So you are saying that manatees and hippos were once upon a time long ago in a galxy far away hippos and manatees were transitional forms from that land animal and whales?
Humans are apes. Look it up.
 
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pitabread

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I have read the rate project report as well as many technical papers.

Did you notice how they concluded there are hundreds of millions of years worth of radiation on Earth?

YOu bigotry against them is noted.

It's not bigotry to point out the fact they have prescribed faith tenets that they adhere to. If that bothers you, take it up with them. I didn't tell them to do that.

It is still tiredly amusing how evolutionists declare that if a scientist is researching Divinve Creation- they can't possible be doing science.

There is no way to test ideas scientifically involving the supernatural. This is why creationists are unable to test competing ideas that rely on invoking supernatural causes.

You have closed your mind to researching Creationism- so it is pointless to converse with you.

Sorry you feel that way, but unless you can come up with to scientifically test supernatural causes, then you're in exactly the same boat.
 
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Shemjaza

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They are theorized as the same method-mutations preserved by natural selection. But we have no record of the genetic mutations that occurred to take a mere ape and over eons of time turn it into man!

Every specific step? no.

We do have the consistent genetic markers in the non coding DNA of all the living apes and humans demonstrating common lineages.

I find it interesting that we are supposedly 98.8% identical to apes genetically and yet we can't use their skin like we do pig skin or their insulion like we do with cow and sheep.
Not actually true.

The issue isn't that we can't use primates for xeno transplants, it's just that primates age much slower and are vastly more expensive and difficult to farm and modify.


MOrphology
language
ability to build on knowledge
rational thought
among a few

The extinct species were upright and most of them used worked tools... clearly demonstrating your characteristics.

Modern apes also have rudimentary versions of all those traits.

What's the morphological distinction between an "ape" and a "man"?

So you are saying that mere similarity in bone structure is the deciding factor?

For species that are long extinct we don't have DNA... we have to rely on the patterns of morphology.

Analysis of bone structure is a complicated process, but it is certainly verifiable and repeatable.

So you are saying that manatees and hippos were once upon a time long ago in a galxy far away hippos and manatees were transitional forms from that land animal and whales?
That's not what I said.

The example I was using those animals for is to show that a reasonably smooth transition from medium sized land predator to vast ocean beast has a number of viable options.

Creationists tend to claim that a half transformed whale wouldn't be able to survive... and these creatures demonstrate that it would be possible.
 
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Ophiolite

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The issue isn't that we can't use primates for xeno transplants, it's just that primates age much slower and are vastly more expensive and difficult to farm and modify.
Plus left wing apes like me would object to such abuse of their cousins.
 
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