What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

SelfSim

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Then support my position to let the creation scientists back in to peer review.
You just don't get it .. do you?
I specifically made the point that the chosen discipline of intellectual honesty calls for beliefs to be ejected as the scientific process moves forward. Peer review strives to uphold this principle of intellectual honesty and applies it to every submission .. equally.

So why would you then solicit my support for a belief-based ideological mindset which has nothing to do with furthering scientific thinking? Such a mindset has absolutely zip to offer in probing the unknowns at the edges of already established objective scientific knowledge!

Its not that your so-called 'creation scientists' are deliberately excluded from peer review because of their beliefs also! Its purely because they, themselves, are unwilling to leave their beliefs behind ... and those beliefs are clearly revealed in their own reasoning!
jamesbond007 said:
I doubt your scientists will do that because creation scientists will expose their ToE and abiogenesis.
Absolute nonsense!
Evolution theory and the various abiogenesis hypotheses are argued from objectively tested evidenced bases, whereas your so-called 'creation science' is based on assumed, believed-in untestable posits having the assumed existence of universal 'truths'. There is no objective overlap in the two totally dissimilar respective approaches.

jamesbond007 said:
It really doesn't matter that ToE and abiogenesis aren't useful.
You are hardly in a suitably qualified position to pass credible judgement on the field if you are an 'engineer', as you explain yourself as being in post#99 .. are you?

jamesbond007 said:
It's not like engineering where people invent something and make money. Evo scientists try to get their papers published in Nature and Science to gain fame and then write a book. Darwin was very successful at that, but his theories were shown to be mostly wrong and it wasn't practical. To this day, it's just an exercise for atheists and Christians to argue about who is right. For creationists, if anything, creation science just shows how great God's mind is to the point that we still do not realize all the beauty and complexity that went into this world. We are discovering things all the time. That's not the way atheists think tho. They just think it's par for the course for nature and that this is how it works in other places, but little do they realize it doesn't. It's like Darwin was a great writer of fiction and he sold a lot of books about it because no one had ever heard of how life came to be. Does it matter that we found he was wrong about almost everything? Nah. He made his money and the atheists still worship him as the founder despite it all.
Unsubstantiated tripe .. and unworthy of a response.
 
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SelfSim

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As for the rest, I agree. If I was a scientist, then I just don't bring up my religion and creation science. It's the one big drawback I suppose that they aren't allowed to express their real thoughts and participate in peer review. Thus, I rather be the engineer type which I am. Then it doesn't matter if I spout out my thoughts on creation science, but it usually never gets to the point. We just respect each others religion and not bring it up.
What are you trying to argue in that garbled diatribe?
Since when has being 'an engineer' permitted the evidently undisciplined mindset you argue in favour of?
Are you serious? If you truly are an engineer, then I can easily conclude you are certainly not demonstrating any engineering mindset with which I, (for one), am familiar!?
jamesbond007 said:
However, as a scientist it would be hard to work on something I didn't believe in except to show more evidence for a hypothesis and make a fake scientific argument for it.
That statement serves to demonstrate your inability to distinguish your beliefs from the realm of objectivity .. and a remarkable lack of understanding of what it takes to display the meaning of intellectual honesty, I might add!
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Did you? These apes still climb trees and swing through them as that is the fastest way to get around. They would not walk bipedal for long periods of time to get somewhere. Maybe they're playing and mimicking people. That is a more likely explanation. Otherwise, evolution states that they change genetically to full-time bipedal animals. Thus, you are wrong again. You are just trying to fit the evidence to your theory when it isn't true. No, humans are not apes. The are intelligent beings. You just want to believe in a fairy tale because of the atheist religion.

God lord, but do you hear yourself? You claim that bears are more bipedal than apes, then when I show you that apes are more bipedal than bears, you spout all this nonsense. Apes are well documented to choose to stand on their hindlegs, to complete tasks and to move around at their choosing.

You have done nothing to prove that evolution is wrong or that you can falsify evolution. Accept it.
 
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Brightmoon

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The Precambrian Rabbit argument is basically to find something out of place with ToE. There have been several objects already found to falsify evolution.

View attachment 288410

This is a 3.4 million-year-old partial fossil foot of an ape, like a gorilla, unearthed in Ethiopia. It was deemed to walk awkwardly, not exactly upright. This belonged to the same time history that Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis) was found. Lucy didn't even have a foot. This appeared in Nature.

'A SET of foot bones found in Ethiopia suggests our ancestors kept climbing trees for millions of years after they came down to walk on two feet.

The research, published today in the journal Nature, adds to the complexity of our family tree and points to the existence of a new species, somewhere between primate and human, that lived about 3.4 million years ago.

Co-author Dr Bruce M. Latimer, executive director of the Cleveland Museum of Natural History, said that the discovery was "quite shocking" because it did not fit the present model of human evolution.

The likely human ancestor known to scientists from that time ("Lucy") had feet much like modern humans, but the new fossil foot has an opposable big toe, like a gorilla or chimp.

"This new specimen is walking upright when on the ground, doing it in an awkward fashion, not like us, but still maintains its big toe grasping ability," Dr Latimer said.

"What we see here is two different groups and that was one of the big surprises."'

https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news...a/news-story/4c1e7e0dfa74f25f5be28e76fa7c996e
. You obviously don’t understand what a mosaic trait is. Yes this could show up in a species that weren’t direct ancestors of modern humans but were now extinct cousins . How you think this invalidates evolution is beyond me .
 
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Brightmoon

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Lucy is the one that was presented.

There is disagreement that Lucy walked upright since her skeleton does not have a foot. It's only by the knee, but doubters state the knee shows she was a knuckle walker, i.e four limbs. OTOH, the gorilla foot is similar to a modern gorilla and shows the apes were still climbing trees. It falsifies the theory that apes walked upright. We see that today with modern apes. Even a bear can walk more upright that an ape.
. We do have feet bones from others of Lucy’s species . Lucy was an individual Australopithecus afarensis female not the holy grail of evolution.
 
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jamesbond007

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Intelligent v. non-intelligent would be OK (it's really a continuum)

That's the false dichotomy. Apes just mimic what humans do. They do not have the capability to think abstractly. Animals can think, but are limited. Thus, humans could not have evolved from apes on just that basis.

bipedal v. quadrupedal is appropriate for flightless land quadrupeds like us and other apes.

Apes did not become bipedal. More likely they remained bipedal. There is no advantage for them becoming bipedal. It's just made up nonsense by the evolutionists for apes to evolve into humans which can't possibly happen.
 
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VirOptimus

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That's the false dichotomy. Apes just mimic what humans do. They do not have the capability to think abstractly. Animals can think, but are limited. Thus, humans could not have evolved from apes on just that basis.



Apes did not become bipedal. More likely they remained bipedal. There is no advantage for them becoming bipedal. It's just made up nonsense by the evolutionists for apes to evolve into humans which can't possibly happen.
Humans are apes by definition. Try to learn the basics.
 
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jamesbond007

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God lord, but do you hear yourself? You claim that bears are more bipedal than apes, then when I show you that apes are more bipedal than bears, you spout all this nonsense. Apes are well documented to choose to stand on their hindlegs, to complete tasks and to move around at their choosing.

You have done nothing to prove that evolution is wrong or that you can falsify evolution. Accept it.

Why should I accept lies like you have? I am not foolish. Bears are more bipedal that apes because they can stay bipedal longer. The fact that apes cannot be bipedal today shows evolution is bogus.
 
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VirOptimus

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Why should I accept lies like you have? I am not foolish. Bears are more bipedal that apes because they can stay bipedal longer. The fact that apes cannot be bipedal today shows evolution is bogus.
Humans are bipedal, humans are apes.

So you are wrong.
 
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VirOptimus

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I caught you in a lie, a big one -- Definition of HUMAN



I suppose that I am right because you were wrong.

Your arguments are simplistic while mine are sophisticated and right.

Also, your own link says ”hominid”, maybe you should learn what that is.
 
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. You obviously don’t understand what a mosaic trait is. Yes this could show up in a species that weren’t direct ancestors of modern humans but were now extinct cousins . How you think this invalidates evolution is beyond me .

Sure, I do. God created mosaic organisms like platypus, pronghorn, and red panda. What do you have?
 
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jamesbond007

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. We do have feet bones from others of Lucy’s species . Lucy was an individual Australopithecus afarensis female not the holy grail of evolution.

That isn't what is presented in the argument for Lucy. We found that Lucy is a fraud.

"The science of finding and identifying man’s “prehistoric ancestors” runs in a predictable pattern. A press conference is announced, the discovery of an ape-like “ancestor” revealed with an artist’s impression of what the creature looks like, and the discoverer becomes famous, earning money on lecture tours. The actual fossil bones are scanty and the imagination runs wild. Later, when more evidence is found, the “ancestor” turns out to be totally human or totally ape. The Neanderthal man is an example of one find that turns out to be totally human. Once this find is removed as an intermediate form, you can expect another great discovery to save the day. The latest discovery is “Lucy.”

If you are of the impression that there are many intermediate ancestors to man, take notice of the following statement by an expert in the field: “The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed with room to spare inside a single coffin.“1

This is still an exaggeration since it concedes that various specimens are part of human evolution. Australopithecines, for example, are not considered transitional forms anymore, but a branch of the primate evolutionary tree. True transitional forms are still missing. (“Transitional forms” refer to those creatures which represent intermediate states of development for a supposed ape-like ancestor down to man.)

But what about Lucy? This most recent discovery in Africa is being heralded by many as a true transitional form, typically a replacement for the outmoded australopithecines. Could this be hasty judgment? Let’s examine the evidence. Lucy is a partial fossil skeleton, about the size of a chimpanzee, supposedly female, discovered by paleontologist Dr. Donald Johanson on November 30, 1974, in Hadar, Ethiopia. It is more complete than most fossil finds in that about 40 percent of the bones of the body have been recovered.

The age is “estimated” to be 3.2 million years. The find includes a V-shaped jaw, part of hip and large bones, and other assorted bones with very little skull fragments.2 There were other finds at the same location, other skulls and U-shaped jawbones.

What evidence makes this creature a transitional form? According to Dr. Johanson, she walked upright! Her brain size is still small, ape-like in proportion, and most of the other features are predominantly ape-like. Some say that anatomically it is not different than a modern chimpanzee. The jaw, in particular, is distinct in that it is V-shaped, totally unlike human jaws.

And what evidence supports the idea that this creature walked upright? The angle that the upper leg bone makes with the lower leg bone at the knee. Looking head on, chimpanzee and gorilla legs have an angle of 0 degrees. Humans have an angle of about 9 degrees. If the angle is much greater it gives a “knocked kneed” condition in humans. Lucy and the australophithecines have a larger angle of about 15 degrees.3

Does this make her an upright walker? Present day orangutan and spider monkeys have the same angle as humans yet are extremely adept tree climbers. Some experts argue that the higher angle makes her a better climber.4 This appears to be a knee-jerk reaction rather than clear scientific thinking.

But hold on, the story gets better. Dr. Johanson gave a lecture at the University of Missouri in Kansas City, Nov. 20, 1986, on Lucy and why he thinks she is our ancestor. It included the ideas already mentioned and that Lucy’s femur and pelvis were more robust than most chimps and therefore, “could have” walked upright. After the lecture he opened the meeting for questions. The audience of approximately 800 was quiet so some creationists asked questions. Roy Holt asked; “How far away from Lucy did you find the knee?” (The knee bones were actually discovered about a year earlier than the rest of Lucy). Dr. Johanson answered (reluctantly) about 200 feet lower (!) and two to three kilometers away (about 1.5 miles!). Continuing, Holt asked, “Then why are you sure it belonged to Lucy?” Dr. Johanson: “Anatomical similarity.” (Bears and dogs have anatomical similarities).

After the meeting, the creationists talked with Dr. Johanson and continued the questions. Dr. Johanson argued that homology (particularly DNA homology) is good proof for evolution. Tom Willis responded that “similar structures nearly always have similar plans, (like) similar bridges have similar blue prints.” After more discussion along this line, Dr. Johanson gave this amazing reply: “If you don’t believe homology, then you don’t believe evolution, and evolution is a fact!“5

What about Lucy? Just another partial find of some primate, put together to look like a human ancestor? Could the wide separation of Lucy’s bones (200 feet by 1 mile) better point to a catastrophic scenario – such as a world wide flood?

What about Dr. Johanson’s credibility? To his credit, he does talk about the tentative nature of this type of science. But another evolutionary writer says this about the search for humanlike (homonid) bones; “When it comes to finding a new ‘star’ as our animal ancestor, there is no business like bone business.“6

Tom Willis, the creationist who attended the U. of Missouri lecture puts it this way, “By any reasonable standards, Johanson misrepresented the evidence and he did so for money! A businessman who made claims like those to sell his products would be charged with fraud rather than be paid an honorarium.“7 Regardless of the motives involved for finding our evolutionary “ancestor”, we can be sure that when Lucy is acknowledged as an evolutionary dead end, there will be another press conference with another knee-jerk explanation."

Lucy Fails Test As Missing Link — The Forerunner
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That's the false dichotomy. Apes just mimic what humans do. They do not have the capability to think abstractly.
False; tool use is common among primates, whether they've had past human contact or not; it requires abstract thinking. They may not be very good at it by our standards, but then it's our major speciality. Incidentally many other creatures, including birds and molluscs, have similar (or more sophisticated) levels of abstract thought as other primates.

Animals can think, but are limited. Thus, humans could not have evolved from apes on just that basis.
That's a basic misunderstanding of evolution. Our archaeological history shows a slow but consistent improvement in cognitive abilities over time; our anatomical history shows a slow but consistent improvement in bipedalism, cranial capacity, etc., over time; our genome shows unmistakable evidence of common ancestry with modern primates, and so-on. Multiple lines of evidence, all pointing to the same conclusion.

The fact that you don't like it doesn't change the fact that all the evidence indicates it.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That isn't what is presented in the argument for Lucy. We found that Lucy is a fraud.

"The science of finding and identifying man’s “prehistoric ancestors” runs in a predictable pattern. A press conference is announced, the discovery of an ape-like “ancestor” revealed with an artist’s impression of what the creature looks like, and the discoverer becomes famous, earning money on lecture tours. The actual fossil bones are scanty and the imagination runs wild. Later, when more evidence is found, the “ancestor” turns out to be totally human or totally ape. The Neanderthal man is an example of one find that turns out to be totally human. Once this find is removed as an intermediate form, you can expect another great discovery to save the day. The latest discovery is “Lucy.”

If you are of the impression that there are many intermediate ancestors to man, take notice of the following statement by an expert in the field: “The fossils that decorate our family tree are so scarce that there are still more scientists than specimens. The remarkable fact is that all the physical evidence we have for human evolution can still be placed with room to spare inside a single coffin.“1

This is still an exaggeration since it concedes that various specimens are part of human evolution. Australopithecines, for example, are not considered transitional forms anymore, but a branch of the primate evolutionary tree. True transitional forms are still missing. (“Transitional forms” refer to those creatures which represent intermediate states of development for a supposed ape-like ancestor down to man.)

But what about Lucy? This most recent discovery in Africa is being heralded by many as a true transitional form, typically a replacement for the outmoded australopithecines. Could this be hasty judgment? Let’s examine the evidence. Lucy is a partial fossil skeleton, about the size of a chimpanzee, supposedly female, discovered by paleontologist Dr. Donald Johanson on November 30, 1974, in Hadar, Ethiopia. It is more complete than most fossil finds in that about 40 percent of the bones of the body have been recovered.

The age is “estimated” to be 3.2 million years. The find includes a V-shaped jaw, part of hip and large bones, and other assorted bones with very little skull fragments.2 There were other finds at the same location, other skulls and U-shaped jawbones.

What evidence makes this creature a transitional form? According to Dr. Johanson, she walked upright! Her brain size is still small, ape-like in proportion, and most of the other features are predominantly ape-like. Some say that anatomically it is not different than a modern chimpanzee. The jaw, in particular, is distinct in that it is V-shaped, totally unlike human jaws.

And what evidence supports the idea that this creature walked upright? The angle that the upper leg bone makes with the lower leg bone at the knee. Looking head on, chimpanzee and gorilla legs have an angle of 0 degrees. Humans have an angle of about 9 degrees. If the angle is much greater it gives a “knocked kneed” condition in humans. Lucy and the australophithecines have a larger angle of about 15 degrees.3

Does this make her an upright walker? Present day orangutan and spider monkeys have the same angle as humans yet are extremely adept tree climbers. Some experts argue that the higher angle makes her a better climber.4 This appears to be a knee-jerk reaction rather than clear scientific thinking.

But hold on, the story gets better. Dr. Johanson gave a lecture at the University of Missouri in Kansas City, Nov. 20, 1986, on Lucy and why he thinks she is our ancestor. It included the ideas already mentioned and that Lucy’s femur and pelvis were more robust than most chimps and therefore, “could have” walked upright. After the lecture he opened the meeting for questions. The audience of approximately 800 was quiet so some creationists asked questions. Roy Holt asked; “How far away from Lucy did you find the knee?” (The knee bones were actually discovered about a year earlier than the rest of Lucy). Dr. Johanson answered (reluctantly) about 200 feet lower (!) and two to three kilometers away (about 1.5 miles!). Continuing, Holt asked, “Then why are you sure it belonged to Lucy?” Dr. Johanson: “Anatomical similarity.” (Bears and dogs have anatomical similarities).

After the meeting, the creationists talked with Dr. Johanson and continued the questions. Dr. Johanson argued that homology (particularly DNA homology) is good proof for evolution. Tom Willis responded that “similar structures nearly always have similar plans, (like) similar bridges have similar blue prints.” After more discussion along this line, Dr. Johanson gave this amazing reply: “If you don’t believe homology, then you don’t believe evolution, and evolution is a fact!“5

What about Lucy? Just another partial find of some primate, put together to look like a human ancestor? Could the wide separation of Lucy’s bones (200 feet by 1 mile) better point to a catastrophic scenario – such as a world wide flood?

What about Dr. Johanson’s credibility? To his credit, he does talk about the tentative nature of this type of science. But another evolutionary writer says this about the search for humanlike (homonid) bones; “When it comes to finding a new ‘star’ as our animal ancestor, there is no business like bone business.“6

Tom Willis, the creationist who attended the U. of Missouri lecture puts it this way, “By any reasonable standards, Johanson misrepresented the evidence and he did so for money! A businessman who made claims like those to sell his products would be charged with fraud rather than be paid an honorarium.“7 Regardless of the motives involved for finding our evolutionary “ancestor”, we can be sure that when Lucy is acknowledged as an evolutionary dead end, there will be another press conference with another knee-jerk explanation."

Lucy Fails Test As Missing Link — The Forerunner
As has already been mentioned, there are now some 400-odd specimens of Australopithecus afarensis alone, so the idea of 'Lucy' being a fraud was put to bed long ago.
 
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VirOptimus

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Even if you are right with the hominid definition, it doesn't falsify abiogenesis and ToE.
Yes, I’m right, and no, I have not falsified the ToE or abiogenisis.

If I could I would, its every scientists dream to falsify an established scientific theory. Fame and fortune would be certain as well a place in history.
 
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jamesbond007

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Yes, I’m right, and no, I have not falsified the ToE or abiogenisis.

If I could I would, its every scientists dream to falsify an established scientific theory. Fame and fortune would be certain as well a place in history.

Then it means there isn't any falsification for abiogenesis and ToE which makes them bogus theories.
 
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