What is the Falsification for Abiogenesis and Theory of Evolution?

[Kylie]

Then you'll have to give them to me again.

Here's the conversation as far as I got ... and I'm not going to plod through the whole thread:








This charade went on for days.

So go ahead and give them to me please, and I'll tell you if they are the same kind or not.

Seems your thread checking abilities aren't as good as they should be, since you went straight past the post where I told you (post 283). In any case, I've posted in that thread and tagged you, where I give all the information you need. It's the very last post in that thread at the moment.

 

[renniks]

Lack (in your opinion) of compelling evidence will not falsify a theory. It takes contrary evidence to do that.

Why should I care about that?

 

[renniks]

No reason to believe someone that can never support his claims. You are in effect admitting that you are wrong when your opponents can support their claims and you cannot support yours.

It's not some hidden knowledge. I gave names and quotes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's not some hidden knowledge. I gave names and quotes.

Names and quotes are worthless without a link to the source. One of the most common way to lie that creationists use is to quote out of context.

An equal example of abusing a source by quote mining: It is not some hidden knowledge that the Bible says "There is no God" more than twelve times. If I quoted the Bible but did not give you a source when I quote mined so egregiously how would you refute my claim?

 

[AV1611VET]

Names and quotes are worthless without a link to the source. One of the most common way to lie that creationists use is to quote out of context.

An equal example of abusing a source by quote mining: It is not some hidden knowledge that the Bible says "There is no God" more than twelve times. If I quoted the Bible but did not give you a source when I quote mined so egregiously how would you refute my claim?

Just so you know:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Kings 8:23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

2 Kings 1:16 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to enquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.

2 Kings 5:15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

2 Chronicles 6:14 And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just so you know:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Kings 8:23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:

2 Kings 1:16 And he said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast sent messengers to enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron, is it not because there is no God in Israel to enquire of his word? therefore thou shalt not come down off that bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt surely die.

2 Kings 5:15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

2 Chronicles 6:14 And said, O LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee in the heaven, nor in the earth; which keepest covenant, and shewest mercy unto thy servants, that walk before thee with all their hearts:

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Well done, you found twelve. Let me check to see if the one I asked you about is on the list.

EDIT: Nope, not there.

The point was that even if it was from that list you could not be sure that I was being dishonest if you had not done a not quite exhaustive search.

 

[AV1611VET]

EDIT: Nope, not there.

The one you're thinking of is probably the one I edited out, since it isn't in the corpus of the text.

To wit:

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. {God is...: or, all his thoughts are, There is no God}

 

[Subduction Zone]

The one you're thinking of is probably the one I edited out, since it isn't in the corpus of the text.

To wit:

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts. {God is...: or, all his thoughts are, There is no God}

Nope. I do have the verse handy.

 

[AV1611VET]

Nope. I do have the verse handy.

Let's see it.

I'm curious.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I will give you one more chance, you might still have trouble finding it. It was Psalm 18 31.

If you cannot find it just say so and I promise to post it for you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I will give you one more chance, you might still have trouble finding it. It was Psalm 18 31.

If you cannot find it just say so and I promise to post it for you.

Okay ... I'll bite.

Psalm 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Okay ... I'll bite.

Psalm 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

It is listed under "Alternate translations" on Biblehub:

Translations from Aramaic
Peshitta Holy Bible Translated
Because there is no God outside of LORD JEHOVAH, and there is none strong like my God.

Psalm 18:31 Parallel: For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Just out of curiosity, do you understand why it is a bad idea to quote mine? I do not think very many Christians could find that translation, even if they tried.

 

[AV1611VET]

Just out of curiosity, do you understand why it is a bad idea to quote mine?

Yes, I think it is a bad idea to quote mine.

(Cue Darwin's book title. )

 

[Lion IRC]

Your claim is still meaningless.

*shrug*

Give me something to establish the time period relative to today. How you think me asking you to do this is a debate, I have no idea.

I thought you wanted a date to use as a starting place for your rebuttal.
That's the normal bible skeptic's playbook.
Ask when the Flood happened, then argue from chronology.
"....how did wombats get to Australia if all land animals drowned in a global flood 7,000 years ago?" etc etc

By the way, I'd be happy to debate the validity of the flood story with you.

OK.

 

[Job 33:6]

My mistake it should read tpv instead of tpw.
Full information about the map can be found here.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sjastro/astrophysics/youyangs_50_geol_ed1.pdf

On the fossils I am committing myself to memory here having been on geological field trip as a first year undergraduate to the Geelong region south of the map to one of the sand quarries.
Shells and shark teeth fossils were found.
Incidentally in the tpv layer marine macro and micro fossils are part of the composition.

The other issue against a biblical flood is the sedimentary layers beneath the basalt layer were deposited over millions of years not what you would expect from a short term event.

So your QPE is designated as pleistocene terrestrial strata, whereas the quarry you mentioned is miocene, likely batesfordian (hence the batesford quarry name). The batesfordian is described with calcareous materials which aligns with the limey description of the quarry.

The reason this makes sense is because in large part, plate tectonics and their positioning isn't much different now than it was in the pleistocene. And if anything, lea level would be lower in the pleistocene while ice caps were more extensive.

So when you mentioned a marine environment over land during the pleistocene, it just sounded odd to me. Granted I don't live in australia to know the geology there, but I figured there were some details missing. So really, the marine fossils you are referring to would be in the orange layer of your figure. Or Tmf.

It might help to look at things like glacial striations or independent glacial moraines or till deposits in australia (assuming you guys have those), and then turning back and saying, well, if marine fossils are in TmF, then you have those volcanic eruption with lava which traveled along the open ground (it may not have formed pillow basalts or anything indicative of being a marine eruption), then you could say, well how would multiple glacial and interglacial periods occur with advances and retreats, several times over in a the past couple thousand years? If it were anything like our pleistocene geology here in the US, you could be looking at maybe even a dozen independent glacial advances (and retreats) in that brief period of time. Then you could take into account things like the formation of limestone and strata beneath that further, maybe find an angular unconformity or some kind of propagating faults that superpositionally predates the limestone that would display motion of tectonics in a world with rigid grinding bodies of rock (something with slickensides and fault gouge), as opposed to some sort of tossing around of soft sediment. Then throw in some trace paleozoic trace fossils right in the middle of those turning beds and you're good.

Otherwise thanks for showing me some of the geology of australia. I've never looked at geology in australia so this has been a nice experience for me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So your QPE is designated as pleistocene terrestrial strata, whereas the quarry you mentioned is miocene, likely batesfordian (hence the batesford quarry name). The batesfordian is described with calcareous materials which aligns with the limey description of the quarry.

The reason this makes sense is because in large part, plate tectonics and their positioning isn't much different now than it was in the pleistocene. And if anything, lea level would be lower in the pleistocene while ice caps were more extensive.

So when you mentioned a marine environment over land during the pleistocene, it just sounded odd to me. Granted I don't live in australia to know the geology there, but I figured there were some details missing. So really, the marine fossils you are referring to would be in the orange layer of your figure. Or Tmf.

It might help to look at things like glacial striations or independent glacial moraines or till deposits in australia (assuming you guys have those), and then turning back and saying, well, if marine fossils are in TmF, then you have those volcanic eruption with lava which traveled along the open ground (it may not have formed pillow basalts or anything indicative of being a marine eruption), then you could say, well how would multiple glacial and interglacial periods occur with advances and retreats, several times over in a the past couple thousand years? If it were anything like our pleistocene geology here in the US, you could be looking at maybe even a dozen independent glacial advances (and retreats) in that brief period of time. Then you could take into account things like the formation of limestone and strata beneath that further, maybe find an angular unconformity or some kind of propagating faults that superpositionally predates the limestone that would display motion of tectonics in a world with rigid grinding bodies of rock (something with slickensides and fault gouge), as opposed to some sort of tossing around of soft sediment. Then throw in some trace paleozoic trace fossils right in the middle of those turning beds and you're good.

Otherwise thanks for showing me some of the geology of australia. I've never looked at geology in australia so this has been a nice experience for me.

To the best of my recollection the ice age was mostly a Northern Hemisphere event. Antarctica's ice sheets had a greater extent, and there was more glaciation in the Andes, but that was about it. An image from Wikipedia that shows the maximum glaciation shows a bare Australia:

Last Glacial Maximum - Wikipedia

 

[Job 33:6]

To the best of my recollection the ice age was mostly a Northern Hemisphere event. Antarctica's ice sheets had a greater extent, and there was more glaciation in the Andes, but that was about it. An image from Wikipedia that shows the maximum glaciation shows a bare Australia:

Last Glacial Maximum - Wikipedia

Oh interesting, that's disappointing haha. Well, I don't live in Australia, but for a brief moment, I would be disappointed if I did, because that's good stuff that may not be visible down there then. Here on the east coast of the US, I could take a short drive to manhattan or would go hiking in the adirondacks and could see plenty of striations and glacial till.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have to correct my previous post. In the mountains of Tasmania there was some glaciation:

Weathering evidence for an additional glacial stage in Tasmania - Open Access Repository

I think the Wiki image was of the latest glaciation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh interesting, that's disappointing haha. Well, I don't live in Australia, but for a brief moment, I would be disappointed if I did, because that's good stuff that may not be visible down there then. Here on the east coast of the US, I could take a short drive to manhattan or would go hiking in the adirondacks and could see plenty of striations and glacial till.

I was a bit hasty. As you can see. I grew up in Minnesota. Just a wee tad bit of glacial evidence there

 

[Subduction Zone]

And another article about glaciation in Australia:

The Glaciation of Australia - ScienceDirect