What is the evidence for the existence of a Moral Law?

[Andy Pierce]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What do you mean by evidence? That the moral law exists is a first principle, an axiomatic assumption. Without it there are no limits on what we would be permitted to do, except materialistic concerns.

 

[Andy Pierce]

What do you mean by evidence? That the moral law exists is a first principle, an axiomatic assumption. Without it there are no limits on what we would be permitted to do, except materialistic concerns.

The very first part of the Moral Argument so many people espouse is 'A moral law exists'.
If someone could say it doesn't exist then the argument is worth nothing.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

The proof that any kind of universal "moral law" exists would be the same as the proof that God exists. A universal moral law would, in all practicality, be a god.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The very first part of the Moral Argument so many people espouse is 'A moral law exists'.
If someone could say it doesn't exist then the argument is worth nothing.

Right, that's because it's an assumption. There's no material proof for immaterial concepts, it's a starting off point from which we build our thoughts, otherwise moral language about anything becomes meaningless. There would then be no rules, no anything. The consequence of the thought that there is no morality is that there is nothing evil or good. Why indulge this thought? It just leads to nihilism.

 

[Andy Pierce]

Right, that's because it's an assumption. There's no material proof for immaterial concepts, it's a starting off point from which we build our thoughts, otherwise moral language about anything becomes meaningless. There would then be no rules, no anything. The consequence of the thought that there is no morality is that there is nothing evil or good. Why indulge this thought? It just leads to nihilism.

I must wonder why people like William Lane Craig and Frank Turek spend so much time talking about it then.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I must wonder why people like William Lane Craig and Frank Turek spend so much time talking about it then.

Been a while since I've listened to William Lane Craig but I don't recall his view being substantively different from my own. He also takes the existence of morality for granted and builds his arguments on it.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

I can sort of see "Moral Law" in nature as far as an Aristotelian interpretation of it. This in a number of ways corresponds to certain Hebraic concepts that relates to the essence or intended function of a thing.
This can often be related to sexuality and concepts around that as far as reproduction etc. But it also has a lot of foundation in things that bring health, and wholeness to the person and society at large.

So even things like honesty, could be found in it because of the chaos and damage that lying and dishonesty have in society. etc.

 

[Silverback]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

Gods law is moral law, it's written on our heart, mind, and soul. The problem is that sin entered the world, and is continuing to corrupt, and destroy everything.

Martin Luther called this the "old man on our back" sadly, it will continue until the end.

Gods law is perfect, we just can't follow it.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

 

[RDKirk]

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

But who is the "them" and the "their?" It's those people with whom God has established a covenant-and as the writer of Hebrews points out, a covenant is made only by the shedding of blood.

 

[CatsRule2020]

What we end up talking about are agape love and objective morality, since they are tied together. If one exists then the other exists as well

 

[coffee4u]

But who is the "them" and the "their?" It's those people with whom God has established a covenant-and as the writer of Hebrews points out, a covenant is made only by the shedding of blood.

That verse was a quote taken from Jeremiah and if that was all there was we could say God only wrote this upon the hearts of the Israelite's, but that isn't the only verse.

Romans 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Not just to the Israelite's but to us also.

 

[CatsRule2020]

That verse was a quote taken from Jeremiah and if that was all there was we could say God only wrote this upon the hearts of the Israelite's, but that isn't the only verse.

Romans 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Not just to the Israelite's but to us also.

The OP is asking us to prove this. As if we were in court. It will have to be proven by having enough of and powerful enough circumstantial evidence. This is because we are dealing with an abstract subject.

 

[RDKirk]

That verse was a quote taken from Jeremiah and if that was all there was we could say God only wrote this upon the hearts of the Israelite's, but that isn't the only verse.

Romans 2:14-15
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
Not just to the Israelite's but to us also.

Paul is certainly not saying that about all gentiles, but about the subset of gentiles who actually do behave as those who have the law.

 

[expos4ever]

I think that it is actually rather straightforward to make the case that there exists a set of behaviors and attitudes that, if practiced / demonstrated, would promote attainment of what I believe to be universally-held human goals: peace, justice, freedom, comfort, etc. This set of behaviors / attitudes would not be a "law" in the sense most people mean by "law", but it would still be a universally "optimal" set of such behaviors / practices.

 

[coffee4u]

The OP is asking us to prove this. As if we were in court. It will have to be proven by having enough of and powerful enough circumstantial evidence. This is because we are dealing with an abstract subject.

The scriptures are proof enough.
If others wish to argue outside of scripture has nothing to do with me. Plus I am taking a break from arguing on here, it becomes too draining.
So they can take or leave my answer, can't they.

 

[AACJ]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

A cumulative argument is very helpful.

Genuine moral obligations are a good starting point for publican discussion, I think. They are an unexplained moral fact in a material-only world. They are best explained under Christian theism; such explanation (if done right), when included in a cumulative moral argument, puts another nail in the coffin of naturalism and naturalistic moral realism.

 

[miamited]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

Hi Andy,

Well...you could read the Scriptures. There has been a moral law since the days of the Israelites leaving Egypt at least.

God bless,
Ted

 

[CatsRule2020]

I don't see how one could prove to someone that a moral law exists.

If another person or organization did something that you felt was wrong, to you, a loved one, or a pet or animal, yet the act was legal, then you would know that your conscience was hitting against the moral law.