What is the end goal for creationists these days?

[Motherofkittens]

Provide two explicit examples of force rape in the Old Testament. Provide the names of the victims and the perps. Seeing as how you are the Bible rape expert.

Have you read the bible and the history of the ancient Hebrews? There are lots of atrocities. Most females aren't even named in the bible. But if they aren't named I guess it isn't rape, eh.

Rape is rape regardless if it was "forced" or the victim is named . Rape is rape if there is not a non forced "yes". Even if they didn't say no or fight back. Perhaps there was a gun to the head or they were drugged or scared or in a comma or are 3 months old or a billion other reasons. I would post some of the verses, but I feel, as you have already done, you'll pretend it isn't true. It isn't "real" rape, it isn't "real"slavery, it isn't "real" genocide, etc.

Let's see if you can defend child rape though. Note that in those times girls were married off very young. 12 and under. So when Yahweh said to his "chosen people" to take the virgins for themselves, that means the then Hebrews gave girls and women virginity tests (do you know what that is?) and/or they just took the girls who looked young enough to not be married. As in very young children. Surely you can't defend any of that?

I have another question. If you didn't believe in Yahweh, but other deities or none, would you commit rape, murder, torture, etc ? Do you really need someone supernatural above you threatening enternel dammnation to tell you not to do that? I don't. I would never purposely harm someone or some animal, unless in self defence.

It is interesting though that if you believed in a God and you really belived they said to you "rape a 1 year old 777 times, murder, dismember and eat them" or any any innumerable horrific violation of rights and life, people would probably do it. It is a well supported idea. We indeed do see that in history and right up to this second. Including in Christianity.


@pshun2404

"Religions in China. China is a multi-religious country. Taoism,Buddhism, Islam, Protestantism, and Catholicism have all developed into culture-shaping communities throughout Chinese history. Freedom of belief is a government policy, and normal religious activities are protected by the constitution."
Religion in China, Religious Beliefs in China

I agree with you. Obviously there is more to standard of living besides religion, including Christianity, or lack there of.

 

[Motherofkittens]

That is a major issue with evangelicals, especially conservative ones.

When I ask such folk what they think of God ordering the slaughter of pregnant women and children in Samaria, they USUALLY accuse me of making it up, proclaiming that God would never do such a thing. Then when I provide chapter and verse, they hem and haw and make excuses and justify it with the ol' 'God is God and God can do whatever he wants'.

It is hard to reason with such folk.

Yep. "God would never do/ask that!" You show them many chapters and verses of him doing just that. I have heard the "God made everything, he can do what he wants with us, whoever it is, we aren't important" or "it was a different time (and these are usually people who think God has objective morality)" or "they were evil, he was protecting the good people" or "it wasn't that bad", or "who are you to judge god", or "well, why do YOU think it is wrong?"etc.

It really is quite amazing and horrible that anyone could defend anything unethical, much less these horrific heart breaking atrocities that are written in the bible . What is that saying? I have to look it up.

"...Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg.

And I would add "...also making good people defend evil."

 

[Speedwell]

Yep. "God would never do/ask that!" You show them many chapters and verses of him doing just that. I have heard the "God made everything, he can do what he wants with us, whoever it is, we aren't important" or "it was a different time (and these are usually people who think God has objective morality)" or "they were evil, he was protecting the good people" or "it wasn't that bad", or "who are you to judge god", or "well, why do YOU think it is wrong?"etc.

It really is quite amazing and horrible that anyone could defend anything unethical, much less these horrific heart breaking atrocities that are written in the bible . What is that saying? I have to look it up.

"...Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg.

And I would add "...also making good people defend evil."

The point is moot, anyway. Obeying the dictates of a supremely powerful being capable of imposing draconian punishments is not moral behavior--it is merely obedience.

 

[juvenissun]

I think the whole point is knowing it BEFORE starting to create textbooks.

There is exactly zero reason to teach your particular creation myth as some "alternative", while ignoring all other creation myths which have the exact same merrit as yours.

In a creation science textbook, it needs only one creation "myth". The rest is all science.

 

[Motherofkittens]

It wouldn't matter even if the NT did mention democracy, because the concept originated over 500 years before Jesus was crucified.

That's true. But my point is the bible doesn't even say anything about democracy or it being a good idea at all. The best form of government in the bible is a theocracy. Awesome.

 

[joshua 1 9]

A theocracy, contradicts free will.

A government or authority exists to serve those governed.

“Jesus called them together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many’” (Matthew 20:25-28).

 

[DogmaHunter]

In a creation science textbook, it needs only one creation "myth". The rest is all science.

And who gets to decide which myth of the hundreds available will be included?

 

[juvenissun]

And who gets to decide which myth of the hundreds available will be included?

The very first, most important one.

 

[bhsmte]

A government or authority exists to serve those governed.

“Jesus called them together and said, ‘You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave – just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many’” (Matthew 20:25-28).

Irrelevant to my point.

 

[Ophiolite]

The very first, most important one.

Ah, the Sumerian one then.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The very first, most important one.

The oldest known written creation myth is the Sumerian one. More then likely Hindi creation myths are much older, but we don't have any manuscripts to date.

So in your opinion, we should teach the Sumerian creation myth?

 

[mark kennedy]

When I used to participate in the general C/E debate over a decade ago, a common refrain from the creationist/ID side was how evolutionary biology was doomed, more and more scientists were rejecting it, and that it would eventually be replaced by some sort of scientific creationism or ID.

None of this has obviously come to pass, with creationism/ID making zero dent against mainstream science. Not only that, but creationism has even been losing popular support insofar as USA polling goes.

All I really see from creationists these days when it comes to prognostications is run-of-the-mill apocalyptic prophesy.

Have creationists given up on overturning the scientific establishment? Is it now just a matter of sitting around, chanting about the evils of evolution and waiting for the world to end?

What is the end goal for creationists these days?

I don't know what agenda you imagine creationist had but nothing has changed. We are waiting for the return of Christ and the new creation just as Christians always have and always will. The culture wars are over, nothing in Christian theism has changed.

 

[USincognito]

I just think there's a difference between what we have proven and what we only theorize. We can proven gravity exists. But we can't prove that any animals have evolved from one species to another. We've seen animals adapt, but they've never changed into something else entirely. Micro-evolution: observed. Macro-evolution: not observed.

Just want to point out that science doesn't prove anything and there's no such thing as scientific proof.

 

[mark kennedy]

The oldest known written creation myth is the Sumerian one. More then likely Hindi creation myths are much older, but we don't have any manuscripts to date.

So in your opinion, we should teach the Sumerian creation myth?

The Sumerian myth starts with a pagan elemental, a water elemental that created the universe before there were any gods. Paganism always went back to naturalistic causation, even in their magic. The myth now is this stone age ape man myth.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The Sumerian myth starts with a pagan elemental, a water elemental that created the universe before there were any gods. Paganism always went back to naturalistic causation, even in their magic.

So?

Juve said that they should teach creationism. I provided a list of creation myths, asking which one should be taught. Juve said "the first one".

To our knowledge, the Sumerian myth is the oldest known creation myth.
Complain to juve if you must.

The myth now is this stone age ape man myth.

Was that supposed to be a reference to the scientific model known as biological evolution?

 

[TLK Valentine]

The very first, most important one.

Gilgamesh?

 

[Larniavc]

The Sumerian myth starts with a pagan elemental, a water elemental that created the universe before there were any gods. Paganism always went back to naturalistic causation, even in their magic. The myth now is this stone age ape man myth.

That sounds like you’re talking about Enki.

What a rascal he was, eh?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Rape is rape regardless if it was "forced" or the victim is named.

Rape is a driving force behind evolution. It is not really a part of creationism. In fact Christians are against sex outside of marriage. The Duggar family for example does not even kiss before marriage.

I know with cats if they are in heat the male cats get very interested in them. If they are spayed and do not go into heat then the male cats pretty much leave them alone. At least that is what I have observed.

The Bible talks about "natural brute beasts" (2Peter2:12) and how as Spirit Filled - Born Again believers we are to rise above that. We are called to a higher standard.

 

[Speedwell]

The culture wars are over...

Really? When did that happen?

 

[mark kennedy]

That sounds like you’re talking about Enki.

What a rascal he was, eh?

Something like that, it was always referred to as she. Remisent of the fresh water, sea water marshes. The elemental were earth, air, fire water. The Summerian myth was a water elemental. I noticed Zeus' wife was Herra, I think that means earth.