What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

servant7777 · Aug 5, 2022

Soyeong said:
I grew up as a Baptist, so I've changed my opinion from that to my current beliefs, so if nothing else, it demonstrates that I can change my opinion about something major, and that you are guilty of slander.

When you refuse to acknowledge what the Bible says and repeatedly say things that the Bible directly contradicts while refusing to change your views, then it does not give me much motivation to change my views and it seems strange that you would be criticizing me for not changing my views.

Your own testimony is not acceptable, what you show here, is seen who you are.

I think slander is a Messianic Jew trying to convince Gentile Christians to observe Torah.

We don't follow others changing and being unstable, we follow the rock who is Christ, and cant be moved.

Bit Israel does not follow and has obstacles

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

Soyeong said:
Of course there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus obeyed the law because His people couldn't do it, but rather God said that His law is not too difficult to obey, and there are many examples where the Bible records that people kept it, so the Bible says the opposite, but you won't allow it to inform your position. It's God's law, not my law. In Romans 2:13, it says that only doers of the law will be justified, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying His commandments, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments will be given access to the Tree of Life. The Bible also frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to God, such as in Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, yet you want to have faith in Jesus instead of keeping God's commandments, which is actually refusing to having faith in him.

Sure it is Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God has made Christ unto us Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So I will Glory in the Lord and His Gift of Righteousness, while you glory in your own righteousness, good luck with that.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

fhansen said:
well, that appearance would be wrong. As I've insisted and as the church and the ECFs and Scripture have insisted, man has no righteousness apart from God

Then why do you trust in your own righteousness ? Do you want to stand before a Holy God in the day of Judgment clothed in your own righteousness of the Law, or clothed in the Imputed Law keeping righteousness of Christ ?

servant7777 · Aug 5, 2022

What glory is it if we be buffeted for our faults ?

But if we do like Christ, to not revile when reviled,( to not do wrong but accept blame) this is thankworthy( glory to God) as Christ gave His Holy life for us as those evil doers, and not to man, as mans glory is to not do all to the glory of God, and to even do and speak all shamefully instead to blaspheme that worthy name by which we are called.

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Soyeong · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
Your own testimony is not acceptable, what you show here, is seen who you are.

I think slander is a Messianic Jew trying to convince Gentile Christians to observe Torah.

We don't follow others changing and being unstable, we follow the rock who is Christ, and cant be moved.

Bit Israel does not follow and has obstacles

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Torah is how his audience knew what they should be repenting from transgressing, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples with (Matthew 28:16-20). Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example of how to to walk in obedience to the Torah, and as his follows we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example, and Gentiles can look at what he taught and decided whether or not to become his follower, but Gentiles can't follow him by refusing to follow what he taught, and it is not slander to teach Christians how to follow what Christ taught.

In 2 Peter 3:15-17, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and to be careful not to be carried away by the error of lawless men, so we can be confident that when Paul is correctly understood that he never spoke against anyone obeying the Torah. For some reason that is beyond me it makes sense to you to interpret the Bible as speaking against obeying what God has commanded and against following Christ.

Soyeong · Aug 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Sure it is Rom 8:3

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

God has made Christ unto us Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So I will Glory in the Lord and His Gift of Righteousness, while you glory in your own righteousness, good luck with that.

The law requires obedience, so the way that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us is through obedience. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to His law, so that does not allow you any room try use verse 3 to justify refusing to submit to God's law.

We express our character traits through our actions, so to describe someone as courageous is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage and it would be contradictory to describe someone as courageous who chooses to not take actions that express courage, and the same is true of righteousness. The gift of righteousness is the gift of becoming someone who chooses to take actions that express righteousness, so want the gift of righteousness, but want nothing to do with its content.

Again, please explain why you consider relying on what God has instructed to be instead be relying on ourselves instead of relying on God. In Matthew 5:13-16, Jesus said that our good works give glory to the Father, not that they give glory to ourselves.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Then why do you trust in your own righteousness ? Do you want to stand before a Holy God in the day of Judgment clothed in your own righteousness of the Law, or clothed in the Imputed Law keeping righteousness of Christ ?

I know I better stand clothed in the love He poured out into me (Rom 5:5), which would include evidence of fruit, or else there won't be any heavenly homecoming. If Imputed righouness means I'm still the same old sinner I always was in truth, there won't be any homecoming.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7-8

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 3:7-9

We better be clothed on actual righteous, the righteousness given to us. We can refuse to wear those robes of we wish but I wouldn't pride myself on remaining a sinner in any case.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

The gospel is not, “I created you as a sinner and then blamed you for sinning,” and then suddenly, “What the heck, I’ll save some as long as they believe in Me.”

The gospel is, “I created you not to sin but you rebelled in Eden, disobeying Me, letting your faith in Me die, giving into the pressure of others and your own pride. When the time was ripe, when you might finally begin to appreciate Me after your sojourn away from Me into a relatively godless pigsty, I sent my Son to show you My true nature and will by everything He said and did. I sent Him to show you what love looks like after you’ve lived in a world where man reigns, where pride and selfishness most often rule the day and love is trampled upon if believed in and valued at all. So that you might say, “I now prefer You and Your way to myself and man’s way”.

That turning to God is the essence of faith and fellowship with Him is the result, a relationship we were made for, and then the righteousness we were made for begins to take root and blossom by virtue of that right and just union with Him.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
Again everybody knows them by their fruits, and if they cease from sin or not ceased from sin( Gods will or satans)

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." Eph 4:15-16

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “In your anger do not sin” Eph 4:22-26

If you never pass along a juicy tidbit of gossip, or engage in idle chatter or the smallest white lie, then ok, maybe you're perfected in love.

Clare73 · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
Our faith is made perfect by what we suffer, the same as Christs was

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It was Christ's humanity (incarnation) that was made perfect; i.e., completed, by experiencing all that humanity experiences, learning obedience therein (5:9).

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

There is no reference to perfecting Christ here.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

soy

The law requires obedience,

Which Christ perfectly provided in the place and stead of His People, just like the Law required death for the slightest infraction, Christ provided that also in the place and stead of His People, so they are fully Justified, Righteous, Law Keepers before God.Law and Justice. However you want your own righteousness and obedience.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

fhansen

I know I better stand clothed in the love He poured out into me (Rom 5:5), which would include evidence of fruit, or else there won't be any heavenly homecoming. If Imputed righouness means I'm still the same old sinner I always was in truth, there won't be any homecoming.

Sounds like you would rather have your own righteousness in that Great Day, I feel for you !

Clare73 · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
Hebrews does not teach us that Christ layed His life down for us,

It does in chp 10--Hebrews 10:12-14.

Clare73 · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
If you spoke of the Gospel you would have to speak of what Christ did so we dont die in our sins, and what law that established( the law of faith)
These teachings are given for Israel trying to stablish their own law/righteousness, and by that not submitting themselves to the righteousness of Christ that ends the law( faith in Him ends it), as we receive the Spirit by the hearing of FAITH NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans was written to Gentiles.

Clare73 · Aug 5, 2022

servant7777 said:
How do we know the love of God until it was exampled

His word is not enough?
(Deuteronomy 4:37, Deuteronomy 7:13; Psalms 145:8, Psalms 146:8; Proverbs 15:9)

( and to love our neighbour as ourself was ONLY THEN ESTALISHED):
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
Sounds like you would rather have your own righteousness in that Great Day, I feel for you !

Sounds like you don't want to be bothered by God's word. Here's more, that dovetails with the rest:
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10

Soyeong · Aug 5, 2022

Brightfame52 said:
soy

Which Christ perfectly provided in the place and stead of His People, just like the Law required death for the slightest infraction, Christ provided that also in the place and stead of His People, so they are fully Justified, Righteous, Law Keepers before God.Law and Justice. However you want your own righteousness and obedience.

Nowhere does the Bible say Christ obeyed God's law so that we don't have to, but rather it calls for us to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Our sanctification is about actually being made to be like Christ, not merely counted as being like Christ when we actually are not. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so among another things he is the personification of righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is and every righteous act that we do on obedience to God's law is acting in accordance with and testifying about his righteousness, not about trying to establish our own.

Rapture Bound · Aug 5, 2022

"What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?"

Well, in a nutshell, I would say...

The primary difficulty or obstacle of a person getting into heaven is their
perception that faith in the atoning blood of Christ alone for their justified
status is either "too easy" [i.e - "not enough by itself"] , or "too good to
be true".

These dual false perceptions are inseparably intertwined by the common
denominator of their inability or refusal to believe in what the scriptures
clearly declare.

fhansen · Aug 5, 2022

Rapture Bound said:
"What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?"

Well, in a nutshell, I would say...

The primary difficulty or obstacle of a person getting into heaven is their
perception that faith in the atoning blood of Christ alone for their justified
status is either "too easy" [i.e - "not enough by itself"] , or "too good to
be true".

These dual false perceptions are inseparably intertwined by the common
denominator of their inability or refusal to believe in what the scriptures
clearly declare.

No, sin, from the beginning, was/is the primary difficulty of getting into heaven. Jesús came so that your sins would not only be forgiven, but so that you can 'go, and sin no more'. Which means die no more.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

fhansen said:
Sounds like you don't want to be bothered by God's word. Here's more, that dovetails with the rest:
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10

Why do you prefer your own righteousness before God over being clothed in Christs Perfect God Honoring Righteousness ? The True Servants of the Lord have Imputed Righteousness Isa 54":17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

Thats my account before the Judgment in that Great Day.

You will be their pleading your own righteousness which is of the Law, good luck with that.

Brightfame52 · Aug 5, 2022

Soyeong said:
Nowhere does the Bible say Christ obeyed God's law so that we don't have to, but rather it calls for us to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Our sanctification is about actually being made to be like Christ, not merely counted as being like Christ when we actually are not. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so among another things he is the personification of righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is and every righteous act that we do on obedience to God's law is acting in accordance with and testifying about his righteousness, not about trying to establish our own.

Christ obeyed the Law because His People couldnt, now that He did that, His People do obey the Law by Faith. I have kept every commandment of the Law that Christ kept, because He did it for me, and for all His People. You ready to stand before God to plead your obedience to the Law ? I feel for you !

What is the difficulty of getting into heaven?

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